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EU DRM Revival @ Feldbergring - Wed 14 Aug 2019

Discussion in 'Assetto Corsa Racing Club' started by Craig Dunkley, Jul 18, 2019.

Added to Calendar: 14-08-19
  1. Ronnie Böhme

    Ronnie Böhme
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    He just didn't add the 3 minutes since this is a given fact ;)
     
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  2. Ray Charlebois

    Ray Charlebois
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    ... and who's the noobie here? :redface::redface: I did consider the 3 mins, but I wasn't sure.
    Thanks @Ronnie Böhme :thumbsup:
     
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  3. Denis Betty

    Denis Betty
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    The GT3s @ VIR event is on Sunday. We're @ Donington 1938 on Monday in the Classic DTMs. ;)
     
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  4. ChikiWaki

    ChikiWaki
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    I posted mine for anyone who wants to give it a try. So feel free to use it.
    BTW, GT3 at VIR is on Sunday, DTM at Donington is on Monday, and yes, Donington again on Wed for fun Mini vs Alfa.
    See ya on Sunday
     
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  5. ChikiWaki

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    Sorry, I posted without seeing your post :redface:
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
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  6. Bobby Pennington

    Bobby Pennington
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    I paid attention to everything except ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    [​IMG]
    Being a blonde, over 50, well age wise anyway and being sick make me a really fart smeller.....I mean samrt feller:D
    Can these engines take an entire lap of 100% boost? I'm not going to try again until I know. I'm sharpening my knife. I may have some wrists to slit:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
     
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  7. Bobby Pennington

    Bobby Pennington
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    Will the engine in the Lancia make a lap on 100% boost at Feldberg? Asking for a friend on suicide watch:D
     
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  8. Ray Charlebois

    Ray Charlebois
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    Oh man, seems I have a surplus of red faces today :redface::redface: Got the schedules mixed up.:O_o: I may not be such the fart smeller I'd like to be, but I sure know how to em bare ass myself :rolleyes:
     
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  9. Ray Charlebois

    Ray Charlebois
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    How about if we all pitch in and get you a new engine if you blow it up? :D
    My thoughts are, it 'might' last 1 lap? :whistling: ... and now the new track record...
     
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  10. Bobby Pennington

    Bobby Pennington
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    Holy cow Victor. I didn't know I had a brother in another country. Your story parallels mine except I stayed heavily in the Geoff Crammond series through GP4 and then years beyond that with all the different tracks and mod updates to make the game relevant beyond it's normal life. My early years were a pursuit in sports especially baseball which ended my first year in college when I tore my elbow up. Then I was a quick study in golf and had a couple of guys that were going to sponsor me to play on the mini tour, but nagging tendonitis in both elbows ended that. I still played golf, but had more time on my hands with just work and golf so I slowly got into pc's, flight sims and sim racing.......against bots. I tried to race online when it was new, but the net code issues, cheaters and bone heads driving the wrong way ruined that for me within 2 weeks. So it wasn't until 2017 that I did my first race here at RD and was hooked. For me, the racing is great, but what's better is the guys and the banter in the threads and after the race in TS.

    Your goals and expectations are just as mine are. The old reflexes start deteriorating after a certain age and it's different for every individual. Doing what we do keeps the mind sharp imo because we can multi task looking at apps for info while processing the information of the track coming at us at such high speeds.

    I tried yours and my first lap with 100% boost was a 58.440 which was also my theoretical:cry::cry::cry: Thanks for sharing it because I could have driven the car in the race with this setup and had way more fun. I just don't have the pace at this joint in these cars. I may put up a video of my lap later, but you boys are quick and I am:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
     
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  11. Bobby Pennington

    Bobby Pennington
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    Of course not Ray. Most of the guys here love helping others gain knowledge and go faster. It makes for a more competitive grid and also brings others into the fold which GROWS the grids which is even more important. I don't know if you were in the race thread from Sunday's GT3 race, but I told the guys that I used to get my head bashed by the EU guys, but luckily I'm stubborn and won't take no for an answer and I've gotten to be a lot more competitive. It takes time, but it will happen. Others will see it before you, that I promise you. You'll be caught up in the storm of trying so you won't be able to see the trees for the forest:D

    Only thing I would tell you about others setups, if they send it to you in a PM instead of posting it in the thread, you may want to ask them if it's ok to share with a friend or others. Setups aren't magic, but they are hard work and some of the guys put a lot of time into developing them. Most will tell you what I'm going to say; "What works for me may not work for you". Tweaking them to your liking can do wonders though.

    Stay hungry, motivated and above all else, have fun:)
     
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  12. ChikiWaki

    ChikiWaki
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    Yes, at least three laps. ;)
     
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  13. ChikiWaki

    ChikiWaki
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    And for a decade we were in the same country! :D
    Columbus, OH. Boca Raton, FL. Ft.Lauderdale, FL.
    I studied 12th grade in Columbus, then Florida Atlantic University (FAU) in Boca, after that I worked several more years back in the States.

    No, no, I went all the way to GP4 with the MODing :geek:;) Those were memorable days for me :)

    Ditto

    Yes please do so, I'll watch it and tell you what I do differently, if you want me to. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
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  14. JeroenH

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    Since you guys are talking about setups, I dare to ask a question about them (mind you, I'm **** with setups). Where do you start? Are you evaluating what needs to be corrected and changing the necessary values or do you guys have some sort of plan on what to change first and so on?

    I am able to tell what values have impact on something, but most of the time I'm just guessing and hoping my change will work.
    Example: for next wednesday I left the height of the mini at default. I think you want the car to be as low as possible, but I found that it unsettled the car at the bumps. Next up I put some heavy negative camber on the car to compensate for the weight changes when you take a corner. There's no need for less negative camber because the power on the tires when braking and accelerating is not high enough to unsettle the car there. My goal was to be able to go with full power through turn 2 and 3, and I managed that. The downside is, I've no idea if it's good or that people are able to get a hole lot more out of the car.

    The mini doesn't have much that can be changed, so image what chaos it is with me when I try to set up some of the DRM cars. Most of the times I change it for the worst unfortunately, because I start at the wrong places and are correcting my earlier changes.

    Thanks in advance for some answers.
     
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  15. Ronnie Böhme

    Ronnie Böhme
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    I've once found this flowchart which helped me a lot.
     

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  16. Ray Charlebois

    Ray Charlebois
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    Thanks for that flowchart, Ronnie. :thumbsup: I've used one vaguely similar from a you tube video I found. Although it was drawn up with Rally cars in mind. I haven't had any chance yet to try any setups I got from you guys, zero laps since the Wed race until now. Going to turn some at Donington.
    In regards to the Wed race, I didn't change much with the RMT 120 2 except I softened the front roll bar a bit, used endurance tires, and adjusted the gearing. Turbo was set at 90% for the whole time. I also didn't add enough fuel for the whole race so had to pit for more. I watched other drivers, like Ronnine and Denis in my race replay and noticed I had robbed myself of some speed by gearing too low. I also experienced wheel spin quite a bit with the RPM's on the high side. On lap 1, coming out of cobblestone corner I spun the rear accelerating in 1st and got overtaken.

    Last night I signed up with Twitch and followed Race Department. THEN I found a video of Paul Jeffery racing some old Porsches on Feldbergring! He sung a lot of praises of Fat Alphie for his outstanding work on this track. I happily agree, it is a work of art and I love driving on it. Does RD have awards for outstanding Mods?
    I hope to race on it again soon.:D
     
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  17. JeroenH

    JeroenH
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    Exactly what I was asking for! Thank you a lot.:)
     
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  18. Bobby Pennington

    Bobby Pennington
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    What @Ronnie Böhme put up should help you a lot. Keep in mind that there is no shortcut to this stuff. It comes with experience and a lot of reading and then trial and error while in practice sessions. It's all I did for years and years since the bots were all I raced and doing hotlaps trying to squeeze out a tenth or 2 here and there.

    I'll give you a couple of routes to pursue Jeroen.

    Remember this: If you're a mid packer like me, I have to maximize everything I can before my car hits the track. That's the stuff that all of us can control and you don't have to be an :alien: to do that, so pay attention to the little details like your tires and gearing.

    Cars with no adjustable aero:
    1. Always take a new car out using the stock setup on a track and run it until you can get within .200 - .300 a lap in consistency. If you don't, you'll never know if it's your driving or the car.
    2. Get your tire compound and psi's correct. I recommend getting the proTyre app if you don't have it. Read how to use it. It's very clever.
    3. Gearing- You want the car to be almost on the rev limiter 3/4 the way down the longest straight. I like to leave a little overhead for my race setup so, if I have an opportunity to catch a tow, I don't run out of gear and can't make the pass.....that suuuuucks:cautious: The easiest way to do this is use the Final Drive ratio. Then you can tweak it from there with the individual gears. Individual gearing can be a little tricky. If you have to much of a gap between gears, your rpms will drop to low and take you longer to reach your shift point in a gear. If you have to little, you're not taking advantage of the torque and bhp curve and your constantly shifting. Each upshift can cost you a fraction of time so, if you're upshifting 10 times to many per lap, it adds up.
    4. Electronics if the car has them. In AC a setting of 1 is where the computer has more control so the higher the number, the more you have control.
    5. Got that stuff sorted now so we go to spring rates and anti roll bars (ARB). Work with one first and if it feels ok, work with the other one to see how they feel together. Softer in both areas typically means more grip, but it also allows more body roll which makes for a sluggish responding car. Stiffer in both areas typically means less grip, but a much more responsive car to the point of nervousness. Different tracks also respond to soft or stiff. I find a stiffer car at Mugello and Spa make me quicker at those tracks.
    6. Ride Height - In most cases we want the front of the car to be a little lower than the rear. This is know as Rake Angle. A lower front end will put more weight on the front axle and will help with corner turn in, but it's a dynamic number because we are braking sometimes when we are turning in. Feel will be your guide here. The lower the car, the lower the CG (center of gravity) which means a little less car lean which is ideal, but get it to low and you'll have road bumps and curb issues with the car bottoming out and you can also run out of suspension travel which means you are relying entirely on the tire for grip AND suspension. Go practice at Spa and go through Eau Rouge and you'll see what I mean. Go to Imola to see how your car reacts over some of those mountainous curbs....you'll be a skateboarder grinding the lip:confused::D Typically you'll have to come back to ride height as you further refine your setup.
    7. Diff Power and Coast. Diff Power- the higher the number the more traction coming out of the corners at the risk of spinning out if you give it to much boot. You can use TC along with diff power to reach a good compromise. Diff Coast- the higher the number the more stable on corner entry (off throttle) but the car will be harder to turn and will push. The lower the number the easier the car will turn in, but can make the car very loose on turn in. Use brake bias and ABS to find a compromise.
    8. Brake bias plays a big part in how a car slows down and rotates on corner entry. Get it wrong and you either crash into the tree you're looking at or you'll back into it and go up in flames:D
    9. Toe adjustment front and back. Negative toe in the back can kill you on corner entry so be careful with it. Toe also affects tire temps and wear. Use the flow chart Ronnie provided.
    10. Now the Black Art: Dampers. These are your fine tuning points once you have a good setup on the 9 areas listed above. Slow bump and slow rebound are about driver inputs. They make a difference on steering, traction under throttle and braking. Fast bump and fast rebound are about how the car handles things like bumps, curbs etc. They do have an overall affect on how your car feels in certain situations, but you have to be careful it's not your spring rates causing you issues.
    11. Camber- I always do this last because the above 10 steps will have an affect on camber. We will always run 0 - Negative Camber (tires leaning in toward car center line) to maximize tire contact patch in corners as we lean on the tire. You want a temp differential of 7-11 degrees from the inside shoulder (always runs hotter) to the outside shoulder (always runs cooler). Front camber helps with corner entry and grip through the corner. Rear camber helps with corner entry with braking and corner exit with traction. You can see how the temps are with a color code in the proTyre app if you have it visible. Green is good, orange and red are hot and blue is cold. Without telemetry it's hard to tell how the tire does in a certain section, but it's sim racing and not life or death. Coloring with Crayons is good enough for us older kids:laugh:
    12. See how it's all coming together? Take care of the big (macro) stuff first and the small (micro) stuff later. Now we tweak to find compromise and car feel. I don't care what numbers are right or wrong, if the car doesn't feel good to you, you won't be able to drive it on the limit. Make adjustment on 1 thing at a time while learning, but sometimes you can get away with 2 and that's about it. Example: Car is loose on corner entry so you might try softening the rear slow rebound and by one or two clicks and add a click or two of brake bias to the front.
    Cars with adjustable aero:
    1. Always take a new car out using the stock setup on a track and run it until you can get within .200 - .300 a lap in consistency. If you don't, you'll never know if it's your driving or the car.
    2. Get your tire compound and psi's correct. I recommend getting the proTyre app if you don't have it. Read how to use it. It's very clever.
    3. Gearing- You want the car to be almost on the rev limiter 3/4 the way down the longest straight. I like to leave a little overhead for my race setup so, if I have an opportunity to catch a tow, I don't run out of gear and can't make the pass.....that suuuuucks:cautious: The easiest way to do this is use the Final Drive ratio. Then you can tweak it from there with the individual gears. Individual gearing can be a little tricky. If you have to much of a gap between gears, your rpms will drop to low and take you longer to reach your shift point in a gear. If you have to little, you're not taking advantage of the torque and bhp curve and your constantly shifting. Each upshift can cost you a fraction of time so, if you're upshifting 10 times to many per lap, it adds up.
    4. Aero - As greedy ham fisted drivers, we always want as much grip up front as we can get while at the same time running as little wing in the back so we maximize speed, limit fuel consumption and reduce understeer:whistling::ninja::D Get it right and it's a thing of beauty. Get it wrong......mushroom cloud going through Eau Rouge at Spa. Balance is the key. Find what works now and then you'll have to go back to gearing because rear wing has a big influence on top speed. You will also revisit aero once you go through the rest of the setup below. This is where we can work with less rear wing and still stabilize the car through suspension settings.
    5. Electronics if the car has them. In AC a setting of 1 is where the computer has more control so the higher the number, the more you have control.
    6. Got that stuff sorted now so we go to spring rates and anti roll bars (ARB). Work with one first and if it feels ok, work with the other one to see how they feel together. Softer in both areas typically means more grip, but it also allows more body roll which makes for a sluggish responding car. Stiffer in both areas typically means less grip, but a much more responsive car to the point of nervousness. Different tracks also respond to soft or stiff. I find a stiffer car at Mugello and Spa make me quicker at those tracks.
    7. Ride Height - In most cases we want the front of the car to be a little lower than the rear. This is know as Rake Angle. A lower front end will put more weight on the front axle and will help with corner turn in, but it's a dynamic number because we are braking sometimes when we are turning in. Feel will be your guide here. You also have to keep in mind that Aero pushes the car down so, if you put more aero on, you'll either have to raise the ride height a little or stiffen the spring rates and the opposite if you take aero off. Car ride height also affects what we call "Ground Effect". Ground Effect is how the air flows under the car from the front wing/splitter all the way to the back of the car where the diffuser is and creates a suction to the track by lowering the air pressure under the car. If the car is to low, not enough air flows under the car and you "stall" the ground effect. If the car is to high, you cannot create the lower air pressure and it's just as bad as having the car to low. If you have the front ride height correct and the rear is to high, the car will be loose at the rear. Rear wing can overcome this, but remember, you're a greedy head full of rocks driver:laugh: so we typically won't do this. If the front is to high, the car will want to push, but, BUT you can sometimes run a click less rear wing you greedy bast:p:D:roflmao:!!! You'll get the hang of it......eventually;) Telemetry is the best way to do this, but it's also overwhelming and I just don't think you need to deal with to much right now. Just look at the stock ride heights in the "Car Status" area when your in the setup section and use that as a base and don't deviate to far from it. + or - .10 is what I used to use. The lower the car, the lower the CG (center of gravity) which means a little less car lean which is ideal, but get it to low and you'll have road bumps and curb issues with the car bottoming out and you can also run out of suspension travel which means you are relying entirely on the tire for grip AND suspension. Go practice at Spa and go through Eau Rouge and you'll see what I mean. Go to Imola to see how your car reacts over some of those mountainous curbs....you'll be a skateboarder grinding the lip:confused::D Typically you'll have to come back to ride height as you further refine your setup.
    8. Diff Power and Coast. Diff Power- the higher the number the more traction coming out of the corners at the risk of spinning out if you give it to much boot. You can use TC along with diff power to reach a good compromise. Diff Coast- the higher the number the more stable on corner entry (off throttle) but the car will be harder to turn and will push. The lower the number the easier the car will turn in, but can make the car very loose on turn in. Use brake bias and ABS to find a compromise.
    9. Brake bias plays a big part in how a car slows down and rotates on corner entry. Get it wrong and you either crash into the tree you're looking at or you'll back into it and go up in flames:D
    10. Toe adjustment front and back. Negative toe in the back can kill you on corner entry so be careful with it. Toe also affects tire temps and wear. Use the flow chart Ronnie provided.
    11. Now the Black Art: Dampers. These are your fine tuning points once you have a good setup on the 10 areas listed above. Slow bump and slow rebound are about driver inputs. They make a difference on steering, traction under throttle and braking. Fast bump and fast rebound are about how the car handles things like bumps, curbs etc. They do have an overall affect on how your car feels in certain situations, but you have to be careful it's not your spring rates causing you issues.
    12. Camber- I always do this last because the above 11 steps will have an affect on camber. We will always run 0 to Negative Camber numbers (tires leaning in toward car center line) to maximize tire contact patch in corners as we lean on the tire. You want a temp differential of about 7-11 degrees from the inside shoulder (always runs hotter) to the outside shoulder (always runs cooler). Front camber helps with corner entry and grip through the corner. Rear camber helps with corner entry with braking and corner exit with traction. You can see how the temps are with a color code in the proTyre app if you have it visible. Green is good, orange and red are hot and blue is cold. Without telemetry it's hard to tell how the tire does in a certain section, but it's sim racing and not life or death. Coloring with Crayons is good enough for us older kids:laugh:
    13. See how it's all coming together? Take care of the big (macro) stuff first and the small (micro) stuff later. Now we tweak to find compromise and car feel. I don't care what numbers are right or wrong, if the car doesn't feel good to you, you won't be able to drive it on the limit. Make adjustment on 1 thing at a time while learning, but sometimes you can get away with 2 and that's about it. Example: Car is loose on corner entry so you might try softening the rear slow rebound and by one or two clicks and add a click or two of brake bias to the front.
    One thing you'll notice in the "Car Status" in AC is camber, toe angle can be different on each corner of the car in the pits and flicker and ride height will vary from pit box to pit box. The tracks are laser scanned so we don't always have a perfectly level surface. A trick I learned from a friend is to go to the drag strip after you've finished your setup to see if the numbers are what you're looking for. It's a perfectly level surface.

    Car stiffness will have an affect on tire temps. Usually, a softer setup or setting will generate more tire carcass heat and you can see a tire load up with heat while driving if you have the tire app on screen. Stiffer settings typically create surface heat across the tire contact patch and you can see that if you have the proTyre app visible. You can tweak both of these for longer races where you are concerned about limiting pit stops or getting away with no tire change and do a splash and dash. Sprint races, smoke 'em if you got 'em:D Go out and paint the town red:sneaky:
    :D


    This is my approach. I'm not an expert, not the quickest, but I do have a decent understanding of this mumbo jumbo. Like I said, it's overwhelming at first, but you'll get it. I'm sure some guys will probably disagree with me and they may or may not be correct. I'm also sure I've probably left something out and if I have, I hope someone catches it.

    Have fun with this stuff and don't sweat it. Enjoy the journey and remember, at the end of the day, we're just moving pixels on a screen and not paying our bills with it. If you do that you'll keep your sanity and your hair. Well, you could still lose your hair due to genetics, but I don't think we need to go into that:roflmao:
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
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  19. Medilloni

    Medilloni
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    Yee Gods and little fishes! This is a keeper, amazing stuff! Thanks Bobby:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
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  20. Bobby Pennington

    Bobby Pennington
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    Thank you John. Don't know about amazing, but it's a little structured and I hope not to confusing.
     
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