Driver61 brings telemetry analysis to a mainstream ACC audience with Hotlaps.io

Badwheels

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Please give us some feedback on those three!

Motec

Advantages
  1. Free
  2. Useful information and very customizable
  3. Used by pros
  4. Totally integrated with ACC, AC, rF2, Iracing
  5. Video integration with replays from sims
  6. Easy to read screens
  7. Multiple lap comparisons
  8. Maps of track driven with corner/straights telemetry
Disadvantages
  1. No support for F1 2xxx, AMS2, PC2
  2. Must use different version for ACC,/AC and rF2
  3. Standard version (rF2) doesn't have as much customization
  4. Doesn't seem to get developmental updates
  5. Can be overwhelming
  6. Extra configuration necessary for rf2 and AC on the sim side

Second Monitor

Advantages
  1. Free
  2. Supports PC2, AMS/AMS2, rF2
  3. Good amount of telemetry data
  4. Multiple lap comparisions

Disadvantages

  1. No support for ACC, AC ,Iracing, F1 2xxx
  2. Not very customizable
  3. Not very intuitive interface
  4. Still in development
  5. Requires additional configuration on the sim side
  6. Primitive Interface

Race Sim Tools

Advantages

  1. Supports AMS2, ACC, AC, PC2, Iracing, F1 2019, Race Room, Dirt Rally
  2. Very geared towards ACC/AC
  3. Huge amount of information can be input to get accurate data per car, per sim
  4. Ability to show drivers where they are coasting and suggest what needs to be improved
  5. Multiple lap comparisons
  6. Updates periodically

Disadvantages

  1. Paid subscription
  2. Telemetry screens need refinement
  3. Seems to crash with large files
  4. No support for rf2
  5. F1 2xxx data very limited (I am attributing this to the game not sending much)

Since I have all of the above mentioned sims in addition to the telemetry software, I did my best to do an apple to apples comparisons using each game at Nurburgring, BMW M6 GT3, 10 laps.

Motec draws the track driven with accurate detail allowing me to include colors for brake/acceleration points, speeds, gears. The other 2 applications don't allow this. The amount of things you can do in Motec Pro is crazy. Because GT3 cars are only allowed to get certain data off of the car, there are different telemetry outputs between laps in ACC and AC. AC gives you tons of stuff you can look at. Motec Standard is the version that supports rF2, Because of this, there is a more limited configuration possible for this sim. If you want full functionality for rf2 inside Motec Pro, you have to buy a license,

Race Sim Tools has you build a car profile per track/car consisting of things like bump stop, wheel circumference, dampers to get accurate information back during laps. It also has built in car profiles for every car in ACC and a lot of cars in AC. You just pick the car and it fills in the blanks. It also allows you to import laps from different tracks that Nil Naujoks has done for comparisons to your own laps. Not a fan of the output interface, but it is doable

Second Monitor is what I would consider a cheap and dirty way to get your telemetry. If you already know how to read the data, this will work fine. It's not pretty and it doesn't support a lot of customization, but it probably can work for some people.

Hope this helps anyone, who for some reason, need to see statistical data that shows that they truly do suck, :whistling:
 
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All this talk actually made me try out Motec for AC.

  • But what how are those lines supposed to look like? (Throttle/Brake)
  • Is there something like a 10 sec delay screen where I can see the telemetry data in-game?
 

Iko Rein

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I missed which tool you are/will be developing. Do you have a link?
I am actually searching for a tool like iSpeed but that spans more sims.

The link was there on the first page, but posting it again.

Main page is
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/telemetry-application-v10.34318/

The "ACC download page" is below. Exactly same version, but at the moment there is no way to crosspost multi-game tools in RD, so I have one page per each game
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/telemetry-tool-for-acc.34563/

I started to do this for F1 2011 and been doing it since then, adding more games (list is now AC, ACC, AMS2, PC2, KartKraft, Dirt Rally 2.0 and F1 2012 to F1 2020), but only games I play myself.

What was really useful about iSpeed was that users could upload their own lap times and one could incrementally better their own times.
I just tested unitedracingdata.com and it seems pretty nice, except that I haven't been able to extract actual lap times from what they call "stints" and until I do, (and do it consistently) it will be limited in use.
I also have Motec, but I never got around to using Atlas, but for me the bottom line is the ability to compare lap times (or averages thereof) among my own laps and/or with other racers. That's when telemetry really comes alive for me. In a vacuum, my own telemetry is not that useful.

I think RD would be the perfect repository for laptimes and I wouldn't mind if the really fast drivers sold their own telemetry, as long as they could add value to it with a video commentary or other similar training.

I'd love to test your tool and learn more about it.
By the way, Driver61 also offers a number of videos, training and other things. The guy is a pro, so I don't mind if he charges for it. The problem with Simracing is that we don't like to spend too much money, as a community, but if he prices it reasonably, I don't mind paying.

Very true, if one combines the different tools and provides professional teaching service + high quality videos, then there is value. E.g. getting private skiing lesson can also be quite expensive.

I cannot emphasize too much, that with my tool you can save opponent laps, so when you do a race (in ACC e.g. CP race), you will have basic per lap traces of all cars in race and can later use those as reference laps, when you look where you can shave of the time.

For the next version I have in final testing version, which uploads the laptimes and some key data to a global database and then on the server you can compare your own laptimes.

I will look at the Telemetry data sharing. I would not want to host all Telemetry data from all users, as one normal lap data is in average 3 MB, so 250 daily users doing about 40 laps each is some 30 GB each day, meaning about 10TB per year. That would be pretty costly (so about 12k$/year in AWS) to host anywhere at this point for a free/donate-ware. So a more curated solution would be needed.

Enjoy, and get faster.

Cheers.
 
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The link was there on the first page, but posting it again.

Main page is
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/telemetry-application-v10.34318/

The "ACC download page" is below. Exactly same version, but at the moment there is no way to crosspost multi-game tools in RD, so I have one page per each game
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/telemetry-tool-for-acc.34563/

I started to do this for F1 2011 and been doing it since then, adding more games (list is now AC, ACC, AMS2, PC2, KartKraft, Dirt Rally 2.0 and F1 2012 to F1 2020), but only games I play myself.



Very true, if one combines the different tools and provides professional teaching service + high quality videos, then there is value. E.g. getting private skiing lesson can also be quite expensive.

I cannot emphasize too much, that with my tool you can save opponent laps, so when you do a race (in ACC e.g. CP race), you will have basic per lap traces of all cars in race and can later use those as reference laps, when you look where you can shave of the time.

For the next version I have in final testing version, which uploads the laptimes and some key data to a global database and then on the server you can compare your own laptimes.

I will look at the Telemetry data sharing. I would not want to host all Telemetry data from all users, as one normal lap data is in average 3 MB, so 250 daily users doing about 40 laps each is some 30 GB each day, meaning about 10TB per year. That would be pretty costly (so about 12k$/year in AWS) to host anywhere at this point for a free/donate-ware. So a more curated solution would be needed.

Enjoy, and get faster.

Cheers.

Are you sure about your AWS calculations?

Code:
    Tiered price for: 30 GB
    30 GB x 0.0230000000 USD = 0.69 USD
    Total tier cost = 0.6900 USD (S3 Standard storage cost)
    1,000,000 PUT requests for S3 Storage x 0.000005 USD per request = 5.00 USD (S3 Standard PUT requests cost)
    1,000,000 GET requests in a month x 0.0000004 USD per request = 0.40 USD (S3 Standard GET requests cost)
    30 GB x 0.0007 USD = 0.021 USD (S3 select returned cost)
    30 GB x 0.002 USD = 0.06 USD (S3 select scanned cost)
    0.69 USD + 0.40 USD + 5.00 USD + 0.021 USD + 0.06 USD = 6.17 USD (Total S3 Standard Storage, data requests, S3 select cost)

    S3 Standard cost (monthly): 6.17 USD

From: https://calculator.aws/#/createCalculator/S3
 

Iko Rein

Premium
596
266
Are you sure about your AWS calculations?

Code:
    Tiered price for: 30 GB
    30 GB x 0.0230000000 USD = 0.69 USD
    Total tier cost = 0.6900 USD (S3 Standard storage cost)
    1,000,000 PUT requests for S3 Storage x 0.000005 USD per request = 5.00 USD (S3 Standard PUT requests cost)
    1,000,000 GET requests in a month x 0.0000004 USD per request = 0.40 USD (S3 Standard GET requests cost)
    30 GB x 0.0007 USD = 0.021 USD (S3 select returned cost)
    30 GB x 0.002 USD = 0.06 USD (S3 select scanned cost)
    0.69 USD + 0.40 USD + 5.00 USD + 0.021 USD + 0.06 USD = 6.17 USD (Total S3 Standard Storage, data requests, S3 select cost)

    S3 Standard cost (monthly): 6.17 USD

From: https://calculator.aws/#/createCalculator/S3

I used the same calculator, took EC2 as the option, but the data estimate is 30 GB PER DAY, annual data is 30GB x 365, so 10TB of data added each year. I would expect that the pricing will come down in few years, maybe then it is feasible. If it would be 10USD/month to store 10TB data, I would gladly host all Telemetry files for all users...

Enjoy, and get faster.

Cheers.
 

Sk3ptik0n

Premium
1,062
283
The link was there on the first page, but posting it again.

And indeed I downloaded it! I feel like an idiot. I think I have it running in the background (or had it at some point) but I haven't had time to get into it. I certainly will now. I didn't get that it saved the telemetry of the other cars racing with me.
Very likely, between iSpeed, Motec and URD yours got lost in the shuffle (i.e. I got it confused with one of them)

I also didn't know the files were so big. I did notice the Motec files were rather large, but I figured it was Motec recording how many bugs were being smacked into the windshield per second, or something.

I think iSpeed solved the problem by uploading only the best lap from a session. iSpeed is still around and I have used it in iRacing (I rejoined last week) but the lap database is from 2018, so not very useful. Cars are missing and in two years iRacing has probably changed the tire model 65 times.

As far as sharing data in a repository, Maybe a strategy similar to iSpeed would solve the problem. Maybe saving only the fastest, slowest and a median lap per stint or having an export function for a single lap from the author, that could be uploaded in the forums like we do mods.
That way really fast drivers wouldn't have to post their fastest lap, (although their ego will probably demand it) but only upload a sample lap for slower drivers.

I think I'll use your program and try to say something more coherent once I have used it.
Thank you for your patience.
 

Sk3ptik0n

Premium
1,062
283
The link was there on the first page, but posting it again.

Main page is
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/telemetry-application-v10.34318/

The "ACC download page" is below. Exactly same version, but at the moment there is no way to crosspost multi-game tools in RD, so I have one page per each game
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/telemetry-tool-for-acc.34563/

I started to do this for F1 2011 and been doing it since then, adding more games (list is now AC, ACC, AMS2, PC2, KartKraft, Dirt Rally 2.0 and F1 2012 to F1 2020), but only games I play myself.

Enjoy, and get faster.

Cheers.

OK, I did a quick inventory and I know why I haven't used your telemetry tool. You have a .bat file for each game. I put a shortcut for ACC on my desktop, but what happened is that every time I forgot to launch it and I remembered in the middle of the game.

Also, I tried pinning the Batch file to my taskbar, but that turned out to be slightly problematic. I found two solutions to that: one editing the "Target" of the shortcut and the other by doing a little Windows magic. I'll copy paste the second one here:
  1. Renaming your .cmd/.bat to to .exe
  2. Right clicking on the *.exe and choose pin to taskbar
  3. Renaming it back to .cmd/.bat
  4. Shift+right clicking the taskbar icon (for the exe) and choose properties
  5. Changing the reference from *.exe to .cmd/.bat and change icon as needed
Note, this also work for "Pin to Start Menu" except that you have to do a slightly different procedure (R-click on Start menu icon >> More >> Open File location and then repeat #5 above.

One can also change the icon of the shortcut, making it visually easier to pick.

After doing this for ACC (I'll do it for AC, and others) I have been thinking how I could package this for someone using more than one sim.

This is entirely within my skillset, but not everyone has the know how to even follow the instructions above.

How hard would it be to make a small interface that lets you launch a batch file from a list?
An easy way, for anyone wondering, would be to place a folder on the desktop and then add the Desktop toolbar and place all the Batch files shortcuts inside a folder. That would create a popup of the folder letting you choose which version to launch. However, that would work for me because I use a separate Windows profile to simrace and my desktop is pretty clean. On my business profile that would be a non starter.

Anyway, I'll be using your telemetrry more now that I know it captures data from all the cars and I have it in the taskbar and the start menu.

Thank you again for all your work.
 

Badwheels

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144
512
All this talk actually made me try out Motec for AC.

  • But what how are those lines supposed to look like? (Throttle/Brake)
  • Is there something like a 10 sec delay screen where I can see the telemetry data in-game?

If you are looking at the throttle and brake telemetry, it goes like this.

Look at the top of the display and you should see these headings "strxx, turnx" which represent your position in the track. If you look into the data where there is a strxx or straight, you should see a flat green line at the top of that throttle channel for the duration of the strxx heading. That means you were full throttle on that straight. If you look into the data where there is a Turnx or turn, you should see a flat red line at the top of that brake channel for a portion of the Turnx heading. That means you hit the brake before and possibly during you turning into the apex.

If you expand the brake channel and you know how to trail brake, you will see the red line in that channel slope down to flat as you ease off of the brake, If you see in drop straight down, you are not trail braking

If you see both the red brake channel and green throttle channel both at the top of their entries, something is wrong with the way you were taught to drive.
 
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If you are looking at the throttle and brake telemetry, it goes like this.

Look at the top of the display and you should see these headings "strxx, turnx" which represent your position in the track. If you look into the data where there is a strxx or straight, you should see a flat green line at the top of that throttle channel for the duration of the strxx heading. That means you were full throttle on that straight. If you look into the data where there is a Turnx or turn, you should see a flat red line at the top of that brake channel for a portion of the Turnx heading. That means you hit the brake before and possibly during you turning into the apex.

If you expand the brake channel and you know how to trail brake, you will see the red line in that channel slope down to flat as you ease off of the brake, If you see in drop straight down, you are not trail braking

If you see both the red brake channel and green throttle channel both at the top of their entries, something is wrong with the way you were taught to drive.
  • Is trail braking the desired way for every corner?
  • What angle is desired for trail braking? Can you please post a screenshot how the lines should look like properly?
 

Jason Chamberlain

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  • Is trail braking the desired way for every corner?
  • What angle is desired for trail braking? Can you please post a screenshot how the lines should look like properly?
Your questions are the reason why it's good to have a reference lap for comparison. The amount of trail braking is different for various corners. The way you brake into Turn 1 at COTA (uphill hairpin) is going to be different than the way you brake for the hairpin at Monaco, for example. It's also helpful to see the amount of steering angle in the reference lap.

Unfortunately, there is no hard and fast rule for how the brake trace should look. Here is a comparison of my braking (red) into Stowe vs the reference lap (blue), which explains why I'm losing nearly 2 tenths here.

1616502131592.png


I hope that this helps.
 
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Your questions are the reason why it's good to have a reference lap for comparison. The amount of trail braking is different for various corners. The way you brake into Turn 1 at COTA (uphill hairpin) is going to be different than the way you brake for the hairpin at Monaco, for example. It's also helpful to see the amount of steering angle in the reference lap.

Unfortunately, there is no hard and fast rule for how the brake trace should look. Here is a comparison of my braking (red) into Stowe vs the reference lap (blue), which explains why I'm losing nearly 2 tenths here.

View attachment 457516

I hope that this helps.

But does trail braking really matter if you have ABS and TC? If you have turned those off, true, then your foot has to be ABS and TC.
 

Jason Chamberlain

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But does trail braking really matter if you have ABS and TC? If you have turned those off, true, then your foot has to be ABS and TC.
Let me preface this by apologizing if you already know all this, but it seems like this is a valid explanation.

ABS just keeps your wheels from locking up. Trail braking is a way to turn and brake simultaneously. It has to do with the traction circle. Your tires can only provide so much traction at once, which is why in a heavy braking zone you begin by braking in a straight line. But once you're mostly slowed down sufficiently, you turn toward the apex while easing up on the brakes. Even with ABS, you really can't do much steering if you are at 100% brake pressure. You can do a little, but then you won't stop as quickly. You will also feel understeer.

This page is a great explanation of it. I hope that this isn't seen as selling a product since this page is free. I'm sure that there are a million great resources out there, but this is one that I know.

Ross Bentley's book Speed Secrets is also a great read.

TC really just has to do with making sure your wheels are rolling appropriately. TC won't give you any extra grip while trying to brake and turn. It will sense if one wheel is spinning much faster than another and regulate the power going to the wheels appropriately. This can help when applying too much power at once or when driving in the wet.

I hope that this helps. I am also 100% confident that anyone else reading this will correct me if I'm wrong :)
 
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Let me preface this by apologizing if you already know all this, but it seems like this is a valid explanation.

ABS just keeps your wheels from locking up. Trail braking is a way to turn and brake simultaneously. It has to do with the traction circle. Your tires can only provide so much traction at once, which is why in a heavy braking zone you begin by braking in a straight line. But once you're mostly slowed down sufficiently, you turn toward the apex while easing up on the brakes. Even with ABS, you really can't do much steering if you are at 100% brake pressure. You can do a little, but then you won't stop as quickly. You will also feel understeer.

This page is a great explanation of it. I hope that this isn't seen as selling a product since this page is free. I'm sure that there are a million great resources out there, but this is one that I know.

Ross Bentley's book Speed Secrets is also a great read.

TC really just has to do with making sure your wheels are rolling appropriately. TC won't give you any extra grip while trying to brake and turn. It will sense if one wheel is spinning much faster than another and regulate the power going to the wheels appropriately. This can help when applying too much power at once or when driving in the wet.

I hope that this helps. I am also 100% confident that anyone else reading this will correct me if I'm wrong :)
I chastise you for spreading .....well....nevermind, I'm upset and that's reason enough.
 
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Let me preface this by apologizing if you already know all this, but it seems like this is a valid explanation.

ABS just keeps your wheels from locking up. Trail braking is a way to turn and brake simultaneously. It has to do with the traction circle. Your tires can only provide so much traction at once, which is why in a heavy braking zone you begin by braking in a straight line. But once you're mostly slowed down sufficiently, you turn toward the apex while easing up on the brakes. Even with ABS, you really can't do much steering if you are at 100% brake pressure. You can do a little, but then you won't stop as quickly. You will also feel understeer.

This page is a great explanation of it. I hope that this isn't seen as selling a product since this page is free. I'm sure that there are a million great resources out there, but this is one that I know.

Ross Bentley's book Speed Secrets is also a great read.

TC really just has to do with making sure your wheels are rolling appropriately. TC won't give you any extra grip while trying to brake and turn. It will sense if one wheel is spinning much faster than another and regulate the power going to the wheels appropriately. This can help when applying too much power at once or when driving in the wet.

I hope that this helps. I am also 100% confident that anyone else reading this will correct me if I'm wrong :)

No worries, I'm still a learner. I'm at 95% AI in AC and what improved the most of my lap times was being and staying on the right line. The braking didn't matter, I brake as late as I can as fast as I can. There is no smoothness in braking for me. It's just I look at your picture above and I don't see the trail or the smoothness of the trail.

Weight transfer during braking and cornering is another thing, same for producing understeer or flicking the car around.

Can Assetto Corsa Motec record that too?

G-Circle-Trailing-Brakes.jpg
 
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@Jason Chamberlain Now that I read that page I might have been doing trail braking all the time without knowing

  1. Brake in a straight line at maximum force
  2. Slightly before the turn in point begin to ease off the brakes
  3. Begin to turn into the corner
  4. As you increase steering angle, reduce braking pressure
  5. Use appropriate amount of braking to keep a well-balanced car through the corner entry phase

I somehow thought trailbraking is 1sec 100% brake force, then 1sec later 75%, then 1sec later 50%. Like this

1616528728635.jpeg
 

Jason Chamberlain

Mobile Chicane
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No worries, I'm still a learner. I'm at 95% AI in AC and what improved the most of my lap times was being and staying on the right line. The braking didn't matter, I brake as late as I can as fast as I can. There is no smoothness in braking for me. It's just I look at your picture above and I don't see the trail or the smoothness of the trail.

Weight transfer during braking and cornering is another thing, same for producing understeer or flicking the car around.

Can Assetto Corsa Motec record that too?

G-Circle-Trailing-Brakes.jpg
My line (the red one) doesn't have trail braking and that's my problem. The blue line has the trail braking. If you could also see the steering angle for both cars you'd get a better feel for it.

Any telemetry app will record it. My point is that it's helpful to have a reference lap for comparison. You can use Iko Rein's app and do a race against the AI on top difficulty and you'll get a better sense of what to do.

Cornering is more than just about braking. Pre-loading the suspension is also a major factor. But braking well will be a huge help for starters.
 

Jason Chamberlain

Mobile Chicane
Premium
148
242
@Jason Chamberlain Now that I read that page I might have been doing trail braking all the time without knowing



I somehow thought trailbraking is 1sec 100% brake force, then 1sec later 75%, then 1sec later 50%. Like this

View attachment 457577
Maybe you have. If your brake trace has a slope to it trailing off, then you are. If it falls off a cliff, then you aren't.

A load cell brake pedal is probably the most impactful hardware upgrade you make to your kit as it makes it much easier to feel the trailing off.
 
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My line (the red one) doesn't have trail braking and that's my problem. The blue line has the trail braking. If you could also see the steering angle for both cars you'd get a better feel for it.

Any telemetry app will record it. My point is that it's helpful to have a reference lap for comparison. You can use Iko Rein's app and do a race against the AI on top difficulty and you'll get a better sense of what to do.

Cornering is more than just about braking. Pre-loading the suspension is also a major factor. But braking well will be a huge help for starters.

But is the AI "legit"? Are they actually braking realistically like a pro would or are they making magic on track?
 
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