Authorised Vendor DK Sigma Motion System | USA Made

[SigmaMotion]

Damn. That guy is sexy!

So, I think I'm finally through the honeymoon phase with my DK2+. I only say that because I started craving motion compensation today. I think it's because i've experienced motion comp before. After spending a week with the DK2+, i can confirm that it really isn't an absolute requirement, but IMO it will improve the experience especially if you've used motion compensation before. I haven't tried anything yet, but the gameplan is a vive tracker mounted behind my head with This plugin

Even without motion compensation, the DK2+ is still a 10/10, especially if you like dirt rally 2 (feels great in AC & iracing too, even on default settings). For me, cranking up the settings confirmed that a 6" system would have been WAY too much. This video also helped confirm that, but i placed my order before seeing that.

After being kept informed about my order status (without needing to ask for any updates), I got my tracking # in half the time that's listed on the website. Shipping was quick and I stayed home from work on the estimated delivery date, but of course UPS didnt come until after i wouldve been home from work...so, pic below was me literally meeting the UPS guy on my porch (that dude was strong, he brought both packages at once)

View attachment 576470

I was up and running 2 hours later (without reading any instructions or else i probably wouldve been done in an hour. I mounted the plates on upside-down). My first drive was in DR2 and I was immediately satisfied with my purchase. After my previous experience with a DOF P6 and then moving to this...it's hard to believe they're in the same price range.

On the hardware side the build quality is top notch, seems like it'll last forever, and the install is super easy. On the software side it's extremely simple to set up, feels great on default settings, is easy to tune and customize to preference, and has run flawlessly so far. Sigma Integrale has something special here and i really think these kits will start getting a lot more popular as more people get their hands on them.

TLDR: Absolutely love the DK2+ and highly recommend it.

Love the self flattery! ha!

Thank-you for the constructive feedback!

1) We will have a high level meeting regarding Motion Compensation (MC) and see how to apply the proper solution, fundamentally. No band aid solutions or 3rd party plug-ins if possible. Sigma-MC should also introduce no significant latency and be computed in real-time, in the embedded controller if possible or necessary. Will report back.

2) I am glad you agree with the less is more philosophy when it comes to travel. Travel is just one metric and increasing travel comes with caveats. Such as MC, or moving further away from the static monitors, washout etc... Also what we tend to interpret as motion is not just actuator travel and speed, but the acceleration and/or jerk, which is the acceleration of acceleration that sells the idea of motion to us. More here on that:

(Howard is the head of engineering at Sigma)

DR2 took us a while to integrate properly. Arthur who is the head of programming here and in charge of algorithms, plumbing and integration, went to great lengths to make the layers shine through. And DR20 is still one of my favorites as well. Specially the Norway and Whales stages, with the large jumps and undulations. Feeling each wheel touch down independently after a big hit is pretty neat.

3) Respect to the UPS driver. The total weight for the two DK2+ packages is 100 lbs.! Dang!

4) We have had several drivers now switch from the P6. One DK2 customer actually offered to sell his P6 back to us for testing and comparison... ;-P But the P6 is a great value and system, and the 6 DOF's sound like a win, but the compromise is speed, accuracy and ultimately rigidity. Harder to keep the seat/frame fixed in place with multiple rod ends, and specially when making constant, high speed positional changes! It's a nice system though, specially for flight.

5) We have spent a lot of engineering hours designing the actuators. It looks simple but its not an easy task when you have to conceptualize, design, build, program the CNC machines, setup the CNC for each batch, and physically build/test each actuator. Will make another post from Howard about this below!

Thanks again for the feedback.
Peace!

 

[SigmaMotion]

Simplicity in mechanical design was always the focus of the DK actuators. A good, simple design is also the most difficult to achieve.

At the core of our actuator, many components require absolute concentricity, perpendicularity, and parallelism. In our modern world of commerce and logistics, global sourcing has become a norm. In this economy, there are generally 2 ways to build precise assemblies:

1. Specify ultra-precise tolerances (high-cost) in machining drawings; implement strict QC and reject all parts that full out of spec; price of end-product becomes highly prohibitive for consumers.

2. Design parts to be easily machined (low-cost), globally sourced and assembled; this comes at a cost of higher complexity; number of components go up in assembly; assembly time goes up; more parts also means more points of failure, more assembly mistakes, more part shortages, procurement problems and longer delivery times.

With our insistence on creating Made-in-USA products, Sigma took a unique approach in our design and manufacturing. With every part made by our in-house machines and our own hands, we can produce ultra-precise assemblies while using very little parts. This is achieved by carefully controlling the tolerance and fit of our parts.

As temperature and humidity rise and fall each day, with machines and tools wearing constantly, each part dimension is a little different from one another. Taking our thrust bearing assembly for example, each bearing is carefully measured and precisely matched to a DK housing. This process ensures a perfect press-fit between them, and does not require hardware such as screws, washers, nuts to secure them together. In fact, there are virtually no fasteners inside our actuators. Everything was designed and manufactured to fit perfectly together.

 

[NetLawMan]

Love the self flattery! ha!

Thank-you for the constructive feedback!

1) We will have a high level meeting regarding Motion Compensation (MC) and see how to apply the proper solution, fundamentally. No band aid solutions or 3rd party plug-ins if possible. Sigma-MC should also introduce no significant latency and be computed in real-time, in the embedded controller if possible or necessary. Will report back.

2) I am glad you agree with the less is more philosophy when it comes to travel. Travel is just one metric and increasing travel comes with caveats. Such as MC, or moving further away from the static monitors, washout etc... Also what we tend to interpret as motion is not just actuator travel and speed, but the acceleration and/or jerk, which is the acceleration of acceleration that sells the idea of motion to us. More here on that:

(Howard is the head of engineering at Sigma)

DR2 took us a while to integrate properly. Arthur who is the head of programming here and in charge of algorithms, plumbing and integration, went to great lengths to make the layers shine through. And DR20 is still one of my favorites as well. Specially the Norway and Whales stages, with the large jumps and undulations. Feeling each wheel touch down independently after a big hit is pretty neat.

3) Respect to the UPS driver. The total weight for the two DK2+ packages is 100 lbs.! Dang!

4) We have had several drivers now switch from the P6. One DK2 customer actually offered to sell his P6 back to us for testing and comparison... ;-P But the P6 is a great value and system, and the 6 DOF's sound like a win, but the compromise is speed, accuracy and ultimately rigidity. Harder to keep the seat/frame fixed in place with multiple rod ends, and specially when making constant, high speed positional changes! It's a nice system though, specially for flight.

5) We have spent a lot of engineering hours designing the actuators. It looks simple but its not an easy task when you have to conceptualize, design, build, program the CNC machines, setup the CNC for each batch, and physically build/test each actuator. Will make another post from Howard about this below!

Thanks again for the feedback.
Peace!

Can you talk a little bit more about the work that you did on DR 2? It might be good to understand the advantages of the DK ecosystem/solution for this type of driving Game. what sets the DK to system apart from the rest of the pack Based on the work that you put into the algorithms and also the layers? BTW, it is truly one of my favorites, although with my age I’m worn out by intensity after 50 minutes

 

[SigmaMotion]

Nah, we are going to keep that one close, although its really not such a big deal. Something we learned from implementing other titles with limited information. ;-)

But yea, its definitely beats you up. And age is just a number, until you go flying through the air at 100mph and land abruptly. lol.

 

[NetLawMan]

Nah, we are going to keep that one close, although its really not such a big deal. Something we learned from implementing other titles with limited information. ;-)

But yea, its definitely beats you up. And age is just a number, until you go flying through the air at 100mph and land abruptly. lol.

I should probably clarify the question. I wasn’t asking how you accomplished what you accomplished (which I hope you would keep as business proprietary). I was asking: what can we as consumers expect in the experience that differentiates the experience from using other actuator systems? Is it a better experience? Why?

 

[eLWOOD1776]

Is it a better experience? Why?

I think the turnkey package that you get with both hardware/software coming from the same manufacturer (especially of this quality) is something that just doesnt come around too often these days. The entire system is designed as a package instead of just being compatible with other options.

I think there's definitely something magical in the algorithm, but even if there wasn't, the lack of latency is the most important thhing for motion IMO. Especially when focusing on acceleration/jerk. If you slam the brakes, any slight delay in that resulting motion will ruin the feel immediately. The full package being built in house is what allows the low latency.

I think the magic in the algorithm comes down to maximizing what you can get out of a 2" actuator, which is obvious when you max out the settings. I never in a million years wouldve thought i'd say 2" would be too much, but this thing cranked to 10 is entirely too much. Definitely recommend a seatbelt for anyone considering the DK6

 

[eLWOOD1776]

1) We will have a high level meeting regarding Motion Compensation (MC) and see how to apply the proper solution, fundamentally. No band aid solutions or 3rd party plug-ins if possible. Sigma-MC should also introduce no significant latency and be computed in real-time, in the embedded controller if possible or necessary. Will report back.

Me reading this part:

The more i learn about you guys, the more impressed i am. I'm a mechanical engineer that's in the wrong industry (utility plant design) and constantly dreaming about a career in sim racing. Let me know when you want to open up an east coast branch

Cable management is coming along, just gotta figure out how to hide it all up front:

 

[SigmaMotion]

I should probably clarify the question. I wasn’t asking how you accomplished what you accomplished (which I hope you would keep as business proprietary). I was asking: what can we as consumers expect in the experience that differentiates the experience from using other actuator systems? Is it a better experience? Why?

Ah! My apologies. I misread... No worries and to be honest, the algorithm is nothing special but it does make a difference in the texture of the experience. DR2.0 is only at 60Hz and so natively a lot of the high frequency 'texture' or 'haptics' is missing if just natively translated. So although I can't speak for others, but our Road Vibration should feel more full, rich and vibrant with DK. ;-)

 

[SigmaMotion]

I think the turnkey package that you get with both hardware/software coming from the same manufacturer (especially of this quality) is something that just doesnt come around too often these days. The entire system is designed as a package instead of just being compatible with other options.

I think there's definitely something magical in the algorithm, but even if there wasn't, the lack of latency is the most important thhing for motion IMO. Especially when focusing on acceleration/jerk. If you slam the brakes, any slight delay in that resulting motion will ruin the feel immediately. The full package being built in house is what allows the low latency.

I think the magic in the algorithm comes down to maximizing what you can get out of a 2" actuator, which is obvious when you max out the settings. I never in a million years wouldve thought i'd say 2" would be too much, but this thing cranked to 10 is entirely too much. Definitely recommend a seatbelt for anyone considering the DK6

Turnkey package is key, as it allows you to finely control all the elements of design and allows for efficiencies that you otherwise would not have control over. Our company name is based on this philosophy, Sigma or the summation of all parts/components and Integrale or the proper integration of all the parts. This is also why we use Teknic motors/power units as they share a similar view for many years now. Great company really.

Simulating motion is very much an engineering problem and actually a very hard one at that. And we are also standing on the shoulders of giants here. (ex. thanks to the heavy NASA research in this topic) How else do you theorize, conceptualize, and build the representation of motion from a game, or someone else's interpretation of vehicle physics should feel and look like on screen. ;-) It's getting better though and we are seeing game developers stepping up, not taking shortcuts and providing great telemetry, better modelled track (more polys) and with great Hz rates.

Latency is quite important and should be solved fundamentally, like all the other factors. In the end we should have an organic, clean and consistent signal. This is what we call motion integrity. At least this is the best way for us to describe what we are attempting to achieve. Otherwise if you cannot maintain motion integrity you do have to rely on tricks like effects, or band-aid solutions in tunning or mechanics. Hope that makes sense. And the algorithm as you mentioned is the "secret-sauce" that puts it all together and how you can get so much from 2" of physical travel. It's an important challenge, cause if you can do 2" well, you can surely do 6" better. This is also why some other motion systems only do 6" or more. We have tried mounting custom 3" actuators to such systems but we did not like the result.

One complaint we heard recently and I think its something we will see come out more often is that the rumble strip vibration in this particular steering wheel system felt different or offset from the vibrations that the user felt in the DK motion. Now this is a very subjective issue but sheds light on how important algorithms and their interpretation. If the vibrations in the steering wheel are deduced from suspension data (like ours) then the issue could possibly be data interpretation or maybe latency, or bitrate or something else all together. BUT if the vibrations are deduced from effects or the sound bank of the game (which is actually quite efficient) than there will obviously be discrepancies. Again I hope that makes sense.

In the end simplicity is key, but its also the most difficult thing to achieve.

 

[blekenbleu]

rumble strip vibration in this particular steering wheel system felt different or offset from the vibrations that the user felt in the DK motion

Supposing even some optimal implementation for both,
if implemented independently, then combined results
would be liable to interference e.g. cancellation and/or
"beats" between related frequencies with varying phase relationships.

 

[SigmaMotion]

Supposing even some optimal implementation for both,
if implemented independently, then combined results
would be liable to interference e.g. cancellation and/or
"beats" between related frequencies with varying phase relationships.

Yes. The phase shifting is an interesting phenomena, as depending on the wave forms you get amplifications and/or cancellations. Great point @blekenbleu !

This is why we find real life testing to be so important. ;-) Theoretically this happens but in real world testing there are many nuances.

Simple Amplified example:

Simple cancellation effect:

source: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-osuniversityphysics/chapter/16-5-interference-of-waves/

 

[blekenbleu]

 

[SigmaMotion]

Yeah, that's a good example....

 

[NetLawMan]

Any DK users make the move from D-Box? Would love insight into your experience. Thanks !!

 

[OlaGB]

Had a go in Xplane11 yesterday, just to see what this flightsim stuff is avout in a sim rig..
I was quite impressed tbh! So impressed that i’m considering buying flight joysticks now, and Msfs2020 when released from Sigma!

I’ve had rides in reallife ultralight planes and cessna size planes before, and the feeling of turbulence and small bumps you feel in the air is very natural / similar in the DK2!

Awsome!

 

[SigmaMotion]

Had a go in Xplane11 yesterday, just to see what this flightsim stuff is avout in a sim rig..
I was quite impressed tbh! So impressed that i’m considering buying flight joysticks now, and Msfs2020 when released from Sigma!

I’ve had rides in reallife ultralight planes and cessna size planes before, and the feeling of turbulence and small bumps you feel in the air is very natural / similar in the DK2!

Awsome!


View attachment 578315

Good to hear and thank-you for the feedback!

To be honest we haven't tuned or played with turbulence yet so I am pleased that its coming through the regular motion layers. (I estimate we are about 20% done with xplane11 and xplane12 is just around the corner offering better physics/dynamics) I will need to DM you to get your settings and conditions for that turbulence as my experience thus far has been too muted.

I have flown a few Cessna's in real life and never ultralights (too husky lol) but turbulence cannot be an effect IMHO. I've felt/experienced those turbulence effects before and its cool at first, but quickly becomes tiresome for me, but probably not for most. Just my opinion, but what I mean is that after a while you can feel that the effect is slowly ramping up and down, and the "variety" of the effect does not have the 'entropy' or the variation of variation that is found in nature or from various possible combinations in the sim. Each laminar flow is sooo different, so unique. A good example is a glider. The turbulence of a glider is not same, at all, as that of a 747 and that of a F-18, yet they play the same. First world problems right!

But this is going to be a challenge for us for sure and will take proper amount of time. We haven't even started discussing the various engines, such as helicopter, turbo-prop, jet, dual engine etc... LOL and their variations... a good challenge. ;-)

 

[SigmaMotion]

Any DK users make the move from D-Box? Would love insight into your experience. Thanks !!

Anybody? Would love to see some replies besides my biased one.

I would say the end experience is undistinguishable to most as dbox is very good at what they do and I can't see most people switching or seeing that as an worthwhile upgrade. We also have our brand biases or in-group preferences too. For example, "I have a Mazda Miata, so the Mazda Miata is the best sports car in the world. Full Stop!", and watch the Honda Civic Si, S2K, Nissan and Mustang guys come in heated LOL.

Anyways, "Motion integrity" is a really good summation that our head of programming came up with of what we are trying to achieve. Not sure how it will play out in the end, but ultimately the product will have to stand for itself.

 

[OlaGB]

Good to hear and thank-you for the feedback!

To be honest we haven't tuned or played with turbulence yet so I am pleased that its coming through the regular motion layers. (I estimate we are about 20% done with xplane11 and xplane12 is just around the corner offering better physics/dynamics) I will need to DM you to get your settings and conditions for that turbulence as my experience thus far has been too muted.

I have flown a few Cessna's in real life and never ultralights (too husky lol) but turbulence cannot be an effect IMHO. I've felt/experienced those turbulence effects before and its cool at first, but quickly becomes tiresome for me, but probably not for most. Just my opinion, but what I mean is that after a while you can feel that the effect is slowly ramping up and down, and the "variety" of the effect does not have the 'entropy' or the variation of variation that is found in nature or from various possible combinations in the sim. Each laminar flow is sooo different, so unique. A good example is a glider. The turbulence of a glider is not same, at all, as that of a 747 and that of a F-18, yet they play the same. First world problems right!

But this is going to be a challenge for us for sure and will take proper amount of time. We haven't even started discussing the various engines, such as helicopter, turbo-prop, jet, dual engine etc... LOL and their variations... a good challenge. ;-)

Turbulence might be the wrong way to describe it, it’s more like small movements that i constanly correct for.. Small wing surface turbulence or variations of lift/drag.. (I only tested small planes so far)
All stock settings.
Not the huge violant turbulence we can feel when flying into big airpockets and drop 300ft in a big plane..
Lack of skills to explain properly

The best experience from it was the heave when using pitch a bit exaggerated.
In a car you feel it firmly follows the surface, while in the flight sim it felt disconnected from ground like it should, and correctly dampened to make it feel right..

 

[SigmaMotion]

Thanks OlaGB, I do know what you mean. That's perfect as it did take us a long time to do a brand new air heave layer. The two are completely different and its exactly how you stated. You explained it well, not a lack of skill.

Actually we will be applying some portion of the new air heave algorithm to ground vehicles as well, something we learned along the way that will help us with anti-saturation, should be awesome once implemented and tuned.

Put it another way, when you take off and the ground effect releases, you have almost unlimited heave up and down. With vehicles, that typically stops with the extension and compressions of the suspension. So there are some fancy algorithms there (at least fancy to me) which I can't even explain that best translates or ensures you always have more heave if necessary. Our head of programming, Arthur is really brilliant and understands such complexities/limitations and then applies fundamental solutions, like a senior engineer should. Lucky to have him on our team. ;-)

Thanks again for the feedback, it important and validates things for us in the real world. hahaha.

 

[SigmaMotion]