Differential settings - please :-)

Can I get some help here?:)
I have been experimenting with diff settings in the gearbox for the Classic Gen1 model1 F1 car.
And when I enable the Clutch LSD then I can NOT feel much difference when I lower/raise the power or coast ramp.

If I instead enables the Geared LSD then there absolutely is a difference if I change the correlating Bias Ratios Power/Coast - but because of the abrubt change in car behavioring entering/exiting a corner I would much prefer to be able to use the Clutch LSD mode.:thumbsup:

diff settings.png


Result :roflmao:
slight damage.jpg
 
What cars would you guys consider the most “textbook” behaving for trying things with the clutch LSD?
I have no clear answer to the best car to feel diff change.
But I have a trick I have used in both iRacing and Raceroom (and somewhat rF2) when I did triy to understand/prove if a certain diff change(up/lower of power/coast) actually resulted in the effect I was after.
I used this trick to get away from a suspicion of placebo effect (= I was gettting the effect I thought it should be).

Use the trick is when you have created a useable setup but before beginning to fine tune the diff settings.

Lower the downforce (wings) to a degree where you are still able to control the car but where you are closer to tiptoeing the car round the track more than you feel comforting with.
Because now its a lot easier to feel what effect a change in power/coast settings does initiate.:thumbsup:

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: At the moment Im more or less only driving the Formula V10/V12 - where its rather difficult th decide what behaviour is caused by the engine power vs what is caused by the diff settings.:rolleyes:
 
And I have also to admit that because its often extremely difficult to correlate a theoretical correct change in as example the power/coast settings with the resulting outcome in car behaviour - so my personal conclusion have been: why the hell make it even more complicated (using 3x different diffs ) when the sim devs cannot even make the clutched diff to function correct.:sneaky:
Depends on physics engine: madness has the whole drivetrain simulation very detailed, with components also flexing, cogging and in general "not being ideal", so they're exposing the settings you'd have on a real race car while other sims are letting you set only the effects of those changes. Just read the post i linked from pcars2 forums for a very good explanation.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: This postulate is not a personal vendetta against the diff devs - but something I have concluded after reading peoples advices about as example how you should set up the coast in rF2 or iRacing to get the corner entrance more oversteering(rotating).
Because I have forund advices saying the complete opposite of each other.:roflmao:

I think this has much to do with the fact that differential settings shouldn't be tried by doing too large changes: what clutch diffs do is mainly use torque from the engine to couple wheels and force them to have the same rotational speed. The more torque the car has, the more lock you get with same diff settings, the more grip your tires/aero gives you, the more locking you need to actually force same speed during a turn (you have to overcome inside wheel's grip to force it go same speed as outside one).


Basically coast forces you to go straight qhen you use engine braking, if you have "large" grip differences betweeen rear tires (cambered brake zone, rough surface, lateral load on suspensions) more locking helps making the car stable, but if you don't actually have issues in any brake zone increasing coast lock could lead to instability: it could be that you were alternatively micro-locking rear right/left tires, if you lock them, you may end up making them both slide together getting an "handbrake" effect with the car spinning.


With preload you're forcing your internal tire to go faster and external to go slower mid-turn, this makes the car more stable UNLESS you actually want to steer more than that "stabilizing force" allows you to, at that point one or both tires have to "give up".
You can see the effects of a 100% locked diff (equivalent to infinite preload) on the SC V8 or on the karts: mid corner they either understeer as hell, drift or lift the inside wheel.

Power also similar to the others, but this time the engine plays a major role: an open diff will tend to just spin the inside wheel if you use too much throttle on corner exit, making you just waste power with no traction, but still having full lateral grip on outside wheel.
This behaviour will create understeer BUT the fact that it is not locked will still make the car more "agile" (and oversteery) if you're NOT spinning the inside wheel. It also is less predictable when going back to grip. A locked one, as always, lets the car rotate less and have better traction UNLESS you actually want to oversteer: as i said open differential doesn't let you spin easily, a locked differential understeers untill BOTH wheels start to slip, making you oversteer and even have a nice drift on exit while still being predictable.

SO when setting up differentials you shouldn't just try extremes, because they are actually something you won't want to race with, just finde the values working with your driving style (i brake late and like it understeery on brakes but agile off throttle -> mid coast low preload, but this makes the car unstable mid-corner, high power lock lets me balance this with throttle: when i accelerate i get lock and the car stabilizes, but i can also use even more throttle to start a little slide and rotate it)


WHEN I SAY LOW/HIGH I ALWAYS TALK ABOUT LOCKING, NOT VALUES YOU PUT IN SETUP, IN AMS/PCARS2 HIGH LOCK = LOW ANGLE AND VICEVERSA

Lower the downforce (wings) to a degree where you are still able to control the car but where you are closer to tiptoeing the car round the track more than you feel comforting with.
Because now its a lot easier to feel what effect a change in power/coast settings does initiate.:thumbsup:


While this is valid if you want to get an understanding of what that setting does, when you put downforce again on the car you'll most likely want to change diff settings too.
 
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what clutch diffs do is mainly use torque from the engine to couple wheels and force them to have the same rotational speed. The more torque the car has, the more lock you get with same diff settings, the more grip your tires/aero gives you, the more locking you need to actually force same speed during a turn (you have to overcome inside wheel's grip to force it go same speed as outside one).
When I see such complete short circuiting of logic by taking conclusions more or less 100% from RL to the sim(plification) a racing game is I get rather uninterrested in the conclusions - and if there furthermore are socalled advices based on the same short circuiting then I become amused but not interested anymore.:)
I know more or less what I should do to get (some kind) of a certain outcome of changing as example virtual diff settings - but I know also that because it is just a video game then I should be pretty hesitant to believe too much in RL mechanical experience.
Pretty hesitant :whistling:

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: Often people fall into this reductive fallacy because they believe or tell themselves that a simple simplification like a video game is able to replicate RL racing car behavioring way more than such a simple game is able to.
Way more:whistling:

But such fallacy is obviously quite common and I have commented on this in another post:
 
I personally just want guidance that’s similar to the “How to Set Your Car Up” perma-thread over in the AMS 1 forum. Using the clutch LSD as an example, something like…

Doing [X] with the coast ramp angle gives you more throttle-off rotation and oversteer(ishness) on corner entry.​
Doing [Y] with the power ramp angle gives you more power-on rotation and oversteer(ishness) on corner exit.​
Doing [Z] with the preload gives you….​

Etc...

The theory of how differentials work and whether or not the real world is well represented in the game are interesting and I have no problem with them being discussed in this thread. I just don’t honestly think that invoking those two subjects most clearly communicates what’s helpful to people’s experience playing this game.
 
The theory of how differentials work and whether or not the real world is well represented in the game are interesting and I have no problem with them being discussed in this thread. I just don’t honestly think that invoking those two subjects most clearly communicates what’s helpful to people’s experience playing this game.
Understandable.
And what Im saying is that guidelines from setting up RL diffs have to be taken either with pretty much salt - or (often) can be considered pretty much useless because the two mentioned worlds do not correlate.
 
Just to be clear, my explanation is 100% applicable to both real life and AMS2, that's why i used it, you actually overstimate how mathematically difficoult a clutch differential is, for sure both AMS2 and pCars2 simulate it in more depth than needed for them to be able to setup the differential as you would do in real life (and i don't mean that you'll necessarily end up with same as real life values, because the it also depends on tire and engine model). I was just trying to explain why testing the extremes could lead to unexpected behaviours with both resulting in the car wanting to spin, just in different ways.
 
I personally just want guidance that’s similar to the “How to Set Your Car Up” perma-thread over in the AMS 1 forum. Using the clutch LSD as an example, something like…

Doing [X] with the coast ramp angle gives you more throttle-off rotation and oversteer(ishness) on corner entry.​
Doing [Y] with the power ramp angle gives you more power-on rotation and oversteer(ishness) on corner exit.​
Doing [Z] with the preload gives you….​

Etc...

The theory of how differentials work and whether or not the real world is well represented in the game are interesting and I have no problem with them being discussed in this thread. I just don’t honestly think that invoking those two subjects most clearly communicates what’s helpful to people’s experience playing this game.

Well I'll give it a try with these :)

CLUTCHES
With less clutches you get more oversteer exiting a corner
With more clutches you get more understeer when exiting a corner.

POWER RAMP :
-more degrees mean you get a more stable car during corner exit-understeer
Start with Default values and If you feel like the car has to much oversteer during corner exit increase the number of degrees.
If you go to high the car will snap oversteer very easy during corner entry.

-less degrees mean you get a less stable car during corner exit-oversteer
Start with Default values and If you feel like the car has to much understeer during corner exit decrease the number of degrees.


COAST RAMP :
-more degrees mean you get a tighter car when entering a corner-oversteer
Start with Default values and If you feel like the car is not responsive enough during turn in increase number of degrees.
If you go to high the car will just snap understeer if you miss the breaking point just a little.

-less degrees mean you get a more loose car when entering a corner-understeer
Start with Default values and If you feel like the car is to responsive during turn in reduce the number of degrees.
If you go to low the car becomes to loose on corner entry.

I did my testing on the P2 MRX Duratec Turbo
 
Well I'll give it a try with these :)

CLUTCHES
With less clutches you get more oversteer exiting a corner
With more clutches you get more understeer when exiting a corner.

POWER RAMP :
-more degrees mean you get a more stable car during corner exit-understeer
Start with Default values and If you feel like the car has to much oversteer during corner exit increase the number of degrees.
If you go to high the car will snap oversteer very easy during corner entry.

-less degrees mean you get a less stable car during corner exit-oversteer
Start with Default values and If you feel like the car has to much understeer during corner exit decrease the number of degrees.


COAST RAMP :
-more degrees mean you get a tighter car when entering a corner-oversteer
Start with Default values and If you feel like the car is not responsive enough during turn in increase number of degrees.
If you go to high the car will just snap understeer if you miss the breaking point just a little.

-less degrees mean you get a more loose car when entering a corner-understeer
Start with Default values and If you feel like the car is to responsive during turn in reduce the number of degrees.
If you go to low the car becomes to loose on corner entry.

I did my testing on the P2 MRX Duratec Turbo

actually clutches are just a "multiplier" of coast and power settings, more clutches are equal to less degrees in those settings
 
COAST RAMP :
-more degrees mean you get a tighter car when entering a corner-oversteer
Start with Default values and If you feel like the car is not responsive enough during turn in increase number of degrees.
If you go to high the car will just snap understeer if you miss the breaking point just a little.

-less degrees mean you get a more loose car when entering a corner-understeer
Start with Default values and If you feel like the car is to responsive during turn in reduce the number of degrees.
If you go to low the car becomes to loose on corner entry.

I did my testing on the P2 MRX Duratec Turbo
Less degrees on the coast ramp angle means more locking and should result in corner entry understeer and more stability while braking. Either that, or something is strange here with the LSD in AMS2.

Somebody refered to this thread in the Reiza forums, so sorry for almost-necroposting.
 
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