D-Box vs Prosimu

[HugoB]

Hi fellow simracers,

I’m interested if anyone has experience with both motion platforms and if you could tell the price difference is worth it? I understand Prosimu has a new actuator the ‘PRS 200’:

http://www.prosimu-shop.com/en/75-t1000.html

It has double the speed of the D-Box actuators and comes in 100/150/200 millimeters travel, which is 4/6/8 Inches equivalent. The 6 inch D-Box cost 36.000 USD for 4 if I’m correct. The Prosimu 6 inches cost 9800 USD for 4. That’s more than three times as much, is D-Box three times better?

I understand D-Box uses it’s own software for the motion and works pretty good with almost every game. Prosimu uses Simtools 2.0. Can you get the exact same feedback from the D-Box setup as from the Prosimu?

I understand D-Box actuators are magnetic and therefore completely silent and very reliable. The Prosimu PRS 200 are brushless motors, their latest product, these are much stronger, much more silent than the old SCN6 actuators. They claim that they are double the speed of the D-Box (2g vs 1g) and can lift 200kg per actuator compared to D-Box 114kg per actuator.

So whats the deal here? Double the performance for 1/3 the price? Does the PRS 200 with Simtools 2.0 perform exactly the same as the D-Box? But only a bit louder and less longevity? Does anyone have experience with Simtools 2.0 on motion, compared to D-Box software, does it have the same detailed feedback?

Thanks!

Hugo

 

[sjb266]

...nevermind...

 

[HugoB]

WOW that 's just awesome. Really tempted to give this a go.

Yes, I’ve decided to go this route. Its just too friggin awesome.

The guy that designed the DIY actuator said he is testing a version of the software that allows the use of two Arduino’s, so you can use 8 actuators. When the feature is stable and finished it will be added to the software for everyone. Then you can do whatever you want with all the telemetry data from any game.

I can make 8 actuators for roughly 3600€, that’s just a tad more than the NLR V3, but I can use 4 actuators for every corner for D-Box style, add one that pushes the seat forward and backward for surge, add two in the front and back for front traction loss, rear traction loss and sway (like the new NLR RTL platform) AND have one left for a seatbelt tensioner. Thats 6 DOF plus a seatbelt tensioner, not bad for the price.
Also to get the same ‘road texture’ and engine RPM feeling as D-Box gives, I’ll add 4 Buttkicker Advance’s on every corner with the new Behringer NX3000D. Then later on I’ll add the GS-5 seat when it comes available. Everything added up it should still be less than the price of one set of 4250i.

I’d like to start building as soon as possible, but first I need to figure out what 3D printer to buy, because the shop around the corner asks 7€ per hour and I guess I’ll need quite a few all nighters, judging by the thickness and fill of the STL files.

The cool thing about going this route is that you can always repair stuff yourself and if the guys that work on this project come with design improvements or upgrades, you can quickly do-it-yourself

 

[anton_Chez]

I'd be interested in this as well. I'm in Australia so I guess it's going to cost more for me to get the same stuff as Europeans (depending where the kit comes from). Current V3 owner as many already know, but with my newly built 80 20 chassis, I can incorporate 4 actuators onto my chassis in probably an hour. They would bolt straight on and I would need less mucking about that I did mounting the V3 into the cockpit.

I'd also be open to someone making these for me and sending them to me for a small (ish) premium, depending how much work there is involved. I haven't read the guide yet so I'm not totally sure. 400 euro per actuator equals to me around $700 AUD give or take, so for the whole kit (built myself) would be under $3K AUD I reckon. I'd be willing to pay someone another grande to build it for me and then work out shipping. By the time I sell off the V3 (prob $2,800 - $3,000 AUD) I'd only be a grande or so out of pocket for a fully suspended motion setup. I already have the tactile taken care of, which wouldn't change after the conversion anyway.

Keeping an eye on this. I don't have any concerns with the V3 in terms of reliability but having a setup like this would definitely make me more secure in terms of longevity.

 

[Beef36]

.

 

[anton_Chez]

So price of entry for 2 of the lowest end D-Box actuators is a touch under $12K AUD. That's a lot considering it's just the actuators.

I'd be looking to pay half that (for the DIY route and that's for a 4 actuator set) for it to be worth moving on from what I have currently.

D-Box sounds awesome but the price to performance is just so huge especially for Aussies. I feel good when I use my V3. I'd feel guilty every time I drove my hypothetical D-Box setup. So much money, and I spend a fair bit on my kit compared to the average sim racer. For comparisons sake, the 4 x 3" D-Box actuators are a touch under 40 grande. From what we're being told, we could have a comparable set up for around 10% of that.

That's either inconceivable or exciting. Don't know which one yet.... Waiting for more info.

 

[Steve D]

I'd be interested in this as well. I'm in Australia so I guess it's going to cost more for me to get the same stuff as Europeans (depending where the kit comes from). Current V3 owner as many already know, but with my newly built 80 20 chassis, I can incorporate 4 actuators onto my chassis in probably an hour. They would bolt straight on and I would need less mucking about that I did mounting the V3 into the cockpit.

I'd also be open to someone making these for me and sending them to me for a small (ish) premium, depending how much work there is involved. I haven't read the guide yet so I'm not totally sure. 400 euro per actuator equals to me around $700 AUD give or take, so for the whole kit (built myself) would be under $3K AUD I reckon. I'd be willing to pay someone another grande to build it for me and then work out shipping. By the time I sell off the V3 (prob $2,800 - $3,000 AUD) I'd only be a grande or so out of pocket for a fully suspended motion setup. I already have the tactile taken care of, which wouldn't change after the conversion anyway.

Keeping an eye on this. I don't have any concerns with the V3 in terms of reliability but having a setup like this would definitely make me more secure in terms of longevity.

Very much looking forward to you being the 'guinea pig' here Anton and fingers crossed you receive a positive response in terms of someone building the actuators for you.

I love my NLRv3 but am curious enough about actuator-based chassis motion to consider it. (Would also like to have a look at the Next Level traction solution) However I just cannot justify the price of a decent, 4-actuator D-Box set up, no matter how I spin it!

Wish I could try one in anger though because a properly set up V3 provides plenty of immersion, despite the seat mover & 2DOF restrictions.

 

[anton_Chez]

I couldn't pull the trigger on a full D-Box 4 actuator system. It's A LOT of money even though I could probably swing it. Something that does a similar job for a whole lot less is definitely something I'm considering. I'm almost already sold, just need to lock down the final price and hopefully Simon is keen on building them for me. If not, I'll see what other options I have re the build process.

 

[RobertR1]

@Steve D

You can book a time to test a D-Box at Vesaro. Atleast that was an option when I inquired a few months back. https://www.vesaro.com/store/pc/viewcontent.asp?idpage=38

 

[HugoB]

Yes, the high price of D-Box actuators makes them out of my reach, just after our wedding that cost a little more than expected, so I’m really happy to have found this DIY actuator project. There is also a threshold price at which ‘fun’ starts to feel less fun and more ‘guilty’.. and I think the D-Box just passed that threshold for me..

Well, my Simlabs P1 is on it’s way, so at least I’ll have something to bolt the actuators to.
I’ve just finished building the ‘Prusa i3 MK3’ 3D printer kit to print the actuator parts. My first print on this printer looks awesome! So I can wholeheartedly recommend this printer to anyone considering:

The kit:

...6 hours later:

 

[HugoB]

@anton_Chez :

In the german forum they said that all the parts are standard hardware, so should be available worldwide at any local or national parts (online)store. The servo motors come from AliExpress so should also not be a problem. The .STL files for the 3D printed parts are also available on the GitHub build page. So anyone, anywhere can build these things, you just need to find the screws and the correct linear bearings etc. linked in the shopping list:

https://github.com/SimFeedback/SimFeedback-AC-Servo/wiki/Shopping-List

Here’s the build manual again btw.:

https://github.com/SimFeedback/SimFeedback-AC-Servo/wiki/Actuator

And the software to control the actuators is also on that GitHub page, it’s all open source and frequent updates are available that will make things even better through time. At the moment the testers on the German forum reported the actuators to be almost indistinguishable from other actuators found at the September Sim Expo this year. Hardly any difference to D-Box also, although D-Box manages to portray ‘engine vibration’ and other tactile feedback better. So maybe keep your buttkickers

So, you’ll get one hell of a great feedback for your money. And you get 4 inches of travel, more than enough for any wild ride

Here’s a video of the movement I found on the forum, by the creator of the project:

Looks pretty similar to footage I’ve seen from other manufacturers. But only trying it will tell of course. Have a look at the software, you can literally tune it to any kind of taste you like, with custom curves for every value, I haven’t seen anything that elaborate elsewhere yet. So making some profiles for GT3 cars with stiff suspension, or old F1 cars and street cars is all possible. You can adjust the response curves real time while driving btw.

@HoiHman how far are you? Did the servo motors arrive yet?

 

[HoiHman]

Big thumbs up on the Prusa I3 MK3 Hugo

@anton_Chez :
D-Box manages to portray ‘engine vibration’ and other tactile feedback better. So maybe keep your buttkickers

These DIY actuators have the engine vibration effect too

@HoiHman how far are you? Did the servo motors arrive yet?

According to DHL track and trace my servos are enroute and should be here by the end of the week

 

[Mascot]

Why is D-Box kit so expensive? I understand that it's high-end proprietary hardware but the markups must be ridiculous. I guess they are either selling commercially (where price and value are often diametrically opposed) or to wealthy enthusiasts (where common sense often goes out of the window).
Like some others here I'm lucky enough to be able to buy a D-Box system if I really wanted to, but buyer's regret would be fuelled by guilt and governed by laws of diminishing returns. The homebrew version @hugo bokhorst and @HoiHman are building for a fraction of the cost therefore looks VERY appealing.
D-Box should be quite worried...

 

[RaceNut]

Why is D-Box kit so expensive? I understand that it's high-end proprietary hardware but the markups must be ridiculous. I guess they are either selling commercially (where price and value are often diametrically opposed) or to wealthy enthusiasts (where common sense often goes out of the window).
Like some others here I'm lucky enough to be able to buy a D-Box system if I really wanted to, but buyer's regret would be fuelled by guilt and governed by laws of diminishing returns. The homebrew version @hugo bokhorst and @HoiHman are building for a fraction of the cost therefore looks VERY appealing.
D-Box should be quite worried...

Yes, D-Box is expensive; they say much of the cost is in developing the profiles to work with various titles and movies but, I suspect they are well compensated for the trouble.

If these DIY setups work out well, I'll think about selling my D-box setup and go the DIY route to have more travel and control over the effects.

 

[RobertR1]

Why is D-Box kit so expensive? I understand that it's high-end proprietary hardware but the markups must be ridiculous. I guess they are either selling commercially (where price and value are often diametrically opposed) or to wealthy enthusiasts (where common sense often goes out of the window).
Like some others here I'm lucky enough to be able to buy a D-Box system if I really wanted to, but buyer's regret would be fuelled by guilt and governed by laws of diminishing returns. The homebrew version @hugo bokhorst and @HoiHman are building for a fraction of the cost therefore looks VERY appealing.
D-Box should be quite worried...

Commercial grade B2B product.

 

[Moxley6969]

LOL, Look at SimTools and tell me it costs that much for plugins....ROFL

DBox Days of Over charging simracers is Over!!!

#LOL
#GoodLuckWithPatenetInfringement
#PatentsWontStopNothing

 

[HugoB]

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, but I believe that the cost of D-Box also lies in the construction of the actuators. They use a linear magnetic driver if I'm correct, that's why it's so silent, there's no gearing in this design. But it also makes it hard to get a large travel distance, you need massive magnet drivers, that's why going from 1.5'' to 3'' doubles the cost and 6'' double that again almost. With all other designs a stepper or (in this DIY case) servo motor is used with a linear gear pushing a pin up and down. Advantage: very large travel distances and high speed. But can be loud in the case of the stepper motor (the SCN 6 'bird chirping') though pretty silent in the case of the servo motor, but still louder than D-Box's gear-less solution. The linear gear solution could however loose resolution due to play in the gearing. That's why D-Box can even give tactile feedback: no detail is lost with the magnetic driver. But for normal road bumps, braking, throttle, gear-shift, g-forces there is actually no difference between motor driven linear geared actuators and D-Box, so I've been told on the German forum. Add buttkickers and you've maybe got the exact same feedback for 1/10th the price? And large travel is nice to have for overhead of the effects. When they all start adding up you've still got headroom for more feedback data in your driver.

 

[Michal Burisin]

This looks promising!

Anybody got idea how much weight it can handle? I couldn't find it on their pages. I have quite weighty rig so I'm not sure if it would be good solution for me.

Also noise is very important factor for me. I wonder if I used these actuators as seat mover only, would it be quieter than moving whole rig (just the actuators noise)?

I'm really interested in your impressions, once you build it.

 

[HugoB]

This looks promising!

Anybody got idea how much weight it can handle? I couldn't find it on their pages. I have quite weighty rig so I'm not sure if it would be good solution for me.

Also noise is very important factor for me. I wonder if I used these actuators as seat mover only, would it be quieter than moving whole rig (just the actuators noise)?

I'm really interested in your impressions, once you build it.

Should be more than the D-Box actuators which come in at around 100kg per actuator, so more than 400kgs total. These servo motors however are much stronger, you should be getting about 200kg per actuator = 800kg for whole rig. I’m basing this on data from the Prosimu PRS200 that uses the same servo motor and construction.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Should be more than the D-Box actuators which come in at around 100kg per actuator, so more than 400kgs total. These servo motors however are much stronger, you should be getting about 200kg per actuator = 800kg for whole rig. I’m basing this on data from the Prosimu PRS200 that uses the same servo motor and construction.

Thanks for the info, I didn't know it's the same servo.

 

[Mr Latte]

Will watch this with interest, ideally if its successful how long will it be before some people or a company decide to ship it pre-made. Making a decent profit after sourcing parts etc.

I would imagine some antivibration materials used within the car industry could be applied to help further reduce the noise.

Can someone post pics of the software to show what it offers for tactile effects or settings available?