Charlie Martin spearheads all female league with RaceDepartment partners RCI

StefanoCasillo

Jaxx Vane Studio
410
1,702
Den Haag
The racing community is very male-oriented, it's in places somewhat old-school. It's often pit-babes, pin-up girls, picking up a hot babe for a ride and so on. It's not the place you'd feel right at home if you are gay and just looking to start with cars. I've seen people being left alone after the rumours started that they were bi/gay. No-one wanted to hang with them at the track, as they didn't want to be seen as "that way" themselves.

OR
Males simply prefer to stick with other males so can they talk about pit babes in peace without being lectured.

I doubt I'd get a very different reaction if I were to join some pilates/yoga or whatever girls like to do when they are together... I really fail to see the problem in this.

It is ALWAYS hard to join a community with a different background than our own.. be that gender, politics, hobby, age you name it. It's hard and requires being humble and aware of who we are and put in the necessary work in order to be accepted and liked.

This idea that any random dude/girl has the right to walk in an established community and start to diss it because they don't behave/think/talk they way he/she wants is beyond comical.

So, once again.. there is absolutely nothing wrong in a series designed for women.. I actually think it's a great way to trigger some by-standers to join the crowd, it'd be a great thing for simracing.. BUT.. I also believe this can be achieved without shitting on the entire community.
 
Last edited:
31
59
This idea that any random dude/girl has the right to walk in an established community and start to diss it because they don't behave/think/talk they way he/she wants is beyond comical.

So i think something that's missed in this comment is that a lot of the people raising concerns are unlikely "any random person" just walking in.
They will be members of the racing community already, be it fans, mechanics, engineers or drivers who have otherwise stayed quiet about it before but want to make the motorsport community more welcoming to people like them
 

CC

Premium
10,124
9,068
So is your objective to change the tiny minority of people who are hostile?
D6D544EE-CDB9-40D5-9F94-BC86D3E96A31.gif
 

Ole Marius Myrvold

JWB 96-13
Staff
Premium
10,695
6,661
Norway
OR
Males simply prefer to stick with other males so can they talk about pit babes in peace without being lectured.

So then we are at least agreeing on this series being ok :)

I doubt I'd get a very different reaction if I were to join some pilates/yoga or whatever girls like to do when they are together... I really fail to see the problem in this.

But you see how statements like this may make women feel a bit... "unwanted"?

It is ALWAYS hard to join a community with a different background than our own.. be that gender, politics, hobby, age you name it. It's hard and requires being humble and aware of who we are and put in the necessary work in order to be accepted and liked.

This idea that any random dude/girl has the right to walk in an established community and start to diss it because they don't behave/think/talk they way he/she wants is beyond comical.

Yes it is, however - I don't think anyone have said that anyone has a right to walk in and start to diss whatever community. But there are small, simple things that can be changed to make things more inclusive.

So, once again.. there is absolutely nothing wrong in a series designed for women.. I actually think it's a great way to trigger some by-standers to join the crowd, it'd be a great thing for simracing.. BUT.. I also believe this can be achieved without shitting on the entire community.

Well. I don't think the news-article here is shitting on anyone or any community.
 

Ole Marius Myrvold

JWB 96-13
Staff
Premium
10,695
6,661
Norway
So i think something that's missed in this comment is that a lot of the people raising concerns are unlikely "any random person" just walking in.
They will be members of the racing community already, be it fans, mechanics, engineers or drivers who have otherwise stayed quiet about it before but want to make the motorsport community more welcoming to people like them

Indeed. It's rare to have people join the real life racing communities and start complaining about things from day 1. I mean, there are people like that, but that's across all kind of mixes of gender, background etc.

I also think it's more real life experience around on this forum than one might think initially. I've done karting and rx as a driver myself, I've been a scrutineer at the Norwegian Championship in Karting, pre-event, and after I was done driving myself. That's how it is in a small community when my local club was hosting the championship. When I wasn't driving, I was helping with the recovery vehicle during the event. I've been a part of the scrutineering team in a WRC-event. I've been assistant race director, I've been a steward, and I got friends doing various stuff in the racing world. One have worked with drivers like Andy Prilaux, Pietro Fittipaldi etc. another one is a professional GT-driver.
I like to think I still got a grasp of a bit of what's going on still.

Anyway, point being - I comment based on my experiences and what I've heard from people I talk with.
 

Kayumi

Premium
212
264
Germany
But you see how statements like this may make women feel a bit... "unwanted"?

there is a difference between feeling unwanted and being unwanted. You could also argue that males feel unwanted in a yoga class then.

Yet again, I have to see one single person in this discussion explicite saying "we don't want those in the sim community".

Why are we even discussing this anymore?
We all agree that the idea behind the event is very good, just very bad executed.
 

UHF79

Premium
130
301
Perception is reality, so to change your reality, change your perception.

If you feel unwanted but ARE wanted (which on the most part I feel is true) , you need to change YOUR view not the view of other people. You can't complain that someone is doing something they're not just because you FEEL like they are!
 
1,347
884
It should. But we know that, from all communities etc. that people who are being harassed and so on, struggle to tell people. It can be because the ones doing the harassment also often have some power. Or it can be that they are scared that no-one believes them, or that they will be mocked for it. This also goes for the virtual world.

As I say I more than understand, but just bear with me. Surely it would be better for a league to be "run" and policed by LGBTQ NB with a zero tolerance approach to negative comments but STILL allow males in? That way the LGBTQ NB people get their protection and can race with decent blokes and we have one big happy family? :)


edit, hang on is it right to say LGBTQ NB in this context as it's been established sexuality has nothing to do with this. I hope the jist of what I mean is still ok!
 
Last edited:
1,347
884
you must be old like me.
From what I understand younger generations are not taught that at all.. they are taught that discrimination is fine as long you discriminate the "right people"... that's why they are so confused when somebody calls them out on this stuff.
I'm 49, yeah I've noticed there's a large amount of hypocrisy in the way some youths think, tends to be the more militant ones who think fighting fire with fire works! The good thing is one day they'll understand (when they hit middle age).
 

Ole Marius Myrvold

JWB 96-13
Staff
Premium
10,695
6,661
Norway
Perception is reality, so to change your reality, change your perception.

If you feel unwanted but ARE wanted (which on the most part I feel is true) , you need to change YOUR view not the view of other people. You can't complain that someone is doing something they're not just because you FEEL like they are!

While I agree that people really shouldn't look for potential issues where there are none, just to find something to complain about.
Some of the problem is that many women have experiences of being too wanted, to the point where some are unable to behave, writes sexual things, sends stuff etc.
As long as this keeps happening, there will be a wish to have something of their own.

Also. One thing is being wanted, but reading "driving like a woman" as a way to describe bad driving, or "that's gay" to describe something one doesn't like. That's not in any way a way you'll make people feel wanted. Then you can say that they are wanted, and that they shouldn't react bad to such statements. That they are just light-hearted comments. While that may be true, when you get comments like that thrown around that is demotivating for people.

It's more than perceptions that needs changing.

As I say I more than understand, but just bear with me. Surely it would be better for a league to be "run" and policed by LGBTQ NB with a zero tolerance approach to negative comments but STILL allow males in? That way the LGBTQ NB people get their protection and can race with decent blokes and we have one big happy family? :)

I agree. That would be ideal (though, zero tolerance to negative comments = people will complain about censorship, so that's a no-go).
Thing is, I can see that being just like any other regular sim-races. I mean, RD-run events are open for all, with a non-tolerance for hate-speech or things that goes on peoples gender, sexuality, race, religion etc. And there are RD-event run by people that are within the LGBT category.
Not sure there would be much difference in a "Pride-race" open for all during Pride-month, except there would be a lot of comments about things being shoved in peoples face and down their throats.

But is it not just for us to support this? Be a part of the livestream-chat, maybe the discord chat for the league, and just show that we are just a group of fun, happy-go-lucky simracers. And by doing that being able to convince them to join more simracing events at different levels? And show the ones that doesn't quite dare to join the big communities that it's not dangerous at all?
We don't have to participate as drivers to do that :)
 
1,347
884
I agree. That would be ideal (though, zero tolerance to negative comments = people will complain about censorship, so that's a no-go).
Thing is, I can see that being just like any other regular sim-races. I mean, RD-run events are open for all, with a non-tolerance for hate-speech or things that goes on peoples gender, sexuality, race, religion etc. And there are RD-event run by people that are within the LGBT category.
Not sure there would be much difference in a "Pride-race" open for all during Pride-month, except there would be a lot of comments about things being shoved in peoples face and down their throats.

But is it not just for us to support this? Be a part of the livestream-chat, maybe the discord chat for the league, and just show that we are just a group of fun, happy-go-lucky simracers. And by doing that being able to convince them to join more simracing events at different levels? And show the ones that doesn't quite dare to join the big communities that it's not dangerous at all?
We don't have to participate as drivers to do that :)

We need to get away from the "free speech" "censorship" nonsense regarding insults though. That's the crux of the problem with social media etc. There's a big difference between critique, criticism, complaining and being rude and insulting. Sadly a few are oblivious to the difference which is the reason problems arise on Social media etc. I have to say it's ironic, because I only joined RD to defend PCARS and SMS from what I saw as very nasty insulting posts, which is why I say we need to stop it all not just in a few high profile areas.

I will support anyone and everyone to be able to race together in peace and fun. I cannot support self segregation or positive discrimination. Both things do nothing to sort the real problem out and further divide IMO.

It's just a shame there is that problem in the first place!
 
370
757
We need to get away from the "free speech" "censorship" nonsense regarding insults though. That's the crux of the problem with social media etc. There's a big difference between critique, criticism, complaining and being rude and insulting. Sadly a few are oblivious to the difference which is the reason problems arise on Social media etc. I have to say it's ironic, because I only joined RD to defend PCARS and SMS from what I saw as very nasty insulting posts, which is why I say we need to stop it all not just in a few high profile areas.

I will support anyone and everyone to be able to race together in peace and fun. I cannot support self segregation or positive discrimination. Both things do nothing to sort the real problem out and further divide IMO.

It's just a shame there is that problem in the first place!
Ok... at a private internet forum, such as RD, they can make they own rules (as they do) and put administrators to enforce those (as they do)... but, on the society (public sphere), who will say what is an insult. And, even with we had the perfect judges, what difference make if someone is calling you all the bad names in the world?

A lot of times, even the right and just thing to say will offend someone. There is no freedom of speech when it comes "with exception".

Even on a utilitarian point of view, is better when we know that really is on peoples mind than lost ourselves on thought policing.
 
1,347
884
Ok... at a private internet forum, such as RD, they can make they own rules (as they do) and put administrators to enforce those (as they do)... but, on the society (public sphere), who will say what is an insult. And, even with we had the perfect judges, what difference make if someone is calling you all the bad names in the world?

A lot of times, even the right and just thing to say will offend someone. There is no freedom of speech when it comes "with exception".

Even on a utilitarian point of view, is better when we know that really is on peoples mind than lost ourselves on thought policing.

It's obvious what an insult is (although language barriers may hinder that), but I'm mainly talking about the bad stuff here. Racial (which IMO includes terms like gammon, cracker, white trash, round eyes, white devil etc), sexual, gender, disability. Mainly stuff that people have no control over. When I first went online back in 97 there was all this "netiquette" stuff, it wasn't flawless but at least there was an attempt at politeness online.

Now social media can be pretty much a cess pit (from some), tackle that and 90% of the current issues are solved. Now yes we need to be carefull on the free speech side of things, but you can say what you want i.e. "I disagree strongly with the Trump adminstration and his supporters" without resorting to saying "the orange skinned/fat twat Trump is an ahole". One statement is acceptable the other is not. Equally if something reasonable has been written but someone still takes offence i.e. "snowflake" reaction then we use common sense (a commodity that is seemingly lacking in the modern world IMO!)

So to reiterate, I'm not about thought policing. People can say what they mean, just without resorting to insulting language. The line may be fine but it IS there and too many cross it on social media.
 
Last edited:
So basically what I take from the 256 posts is a certain group of people want to create an enviroment because of the homophobic abuse some have suffered, OK that's a good thing no problem there, so in order to achieve this they'll exclude an alienate a certain group of people who may have never homophobically abused anyone!!

There may be some logic in there somewhere but I'm probably to naive to understand it in todays world.

A couple years back a friend of my daughter came out (right term I believe) to her group of friends, the news was openly accepted by some and seriously frowned upon by others, to the point where they stopped being a group because some would make life very difficult for the girl in question with comments, attitude and insults. A group of girls that had grown up together since the ages of about 12 up until their mid-late 20's.

Creating a series to get more females and non binary drivers into sim racing is a good thing, but on the back of excluding men when homophobic abuse is definitely not a male only characteristic, again, leaves me a bit too naive for how the world is progressing.
 
370
757
It's obvious what an insult is (although language barriers may hinder that), but I'm mainly talking about the bad stuff here. Racial (which IMO includes terms like gammon, cracker, white trash, round eyes, white devil etc), sexual, gender, disability. Mainly stuff that people have no control over. When I first went online back in 97 there was all this "netiquette" stuff, it wasn't flawless but at least there was an attempt at politeness online.

Now social media can be pretty much a cess pit (from some), tackle that and 90% of the current issues are solved. Now yes we need to be carefull on the free speech side of things, but you can say what you want i.e. "I disagree strongly with the Trump adminstration and his supporters" without resorting to saying "the orange skinned/fat twat Trump is an ahole". One statement is acceptable the other is not. Equally if something reasonable has been written but someone still takes offence i.e. "snowflake" reaction then we use common sense (a commodity that is seemingly lacking in the modern world IMO!)

So to reiterate, I'm not about thought policing. People can say what they mean, just without resorting to insulting language. The line may be fine but it IS there and too many cross it on social media.
My experience with internet forums proved me that things work better the minor are the language restrictions. At first, folks will go berserker, but soon they organize themselves. Even with a sporadic "fight" here and there, is more common angry folks settle down by themselves and even become good mates than otherwise.

When you police what folks are saying the only thing that AWAYS happen is them look for more discrete ways to offend without the ugly words or being caught on the rules.

Of course, considering that forums like RD are focused on "fun topics" (videogamming and racing), anything can go and we don't really need true free speech 99.99999% of time (this topic, in special, is the 0,00001% that it could really help... but maybe we had another in 5 or more years, so it don't really matter.

Anyway... modern forums all have tools like ignore list... so, it's not like you are "forced" to read things that you don't want to, if it may matter to you.
 
Last edited:
1,347
884
My experience with internet forums proved me that things work better the minor are the language restrictions. At first, folks will go berserker, but soon they organize themselves. Even with a sporadic "fight" here and there, is more common angry folks settle down by themselves and even become good mates than otherwise.

When you police what folks are saying the only thing that AWAYS happen is them look for more discrete ways to offend without the ugly words or being caught on the rules.

Of course, considering that forums like RD are focused on "fun topics" (videogamming and racing), anything can go and we don't really need true free speech 99.99999% of time (this topic, in special, is the 0,00001% that it could really help... but maybe we had another in 5 or more years, so it don't really matter.

Anyway... modern forums all have tools like ignore list... so, it's not like you are "forced" to read things that you don't want to, if it may matter to you.

Largly agree but there is a minority who consistantly go too far it seems, otherwise we wouldn't have the calls for "safe spaces" and some members of minorities becoming militant and trying to fight fire with fire. Humans need policing, but the policing needs to be fair and not OTT.

It's just a shame that many feel the need to segregate because of a minority of dbags!
 
Last edited:
217
256
Haha.The culture wars & identity politics comes to RD with predictable consequences.
Segregation is not really something I am a fan of but I really dont have a problem with narrower & narrower sub groups of like minded people getting together for some sim racing.It is one of the strengths of sim racing.
This is just another racing club it is not taking away from any other sim racing going on.

Just like Formula W it will not create any elite athletes,but it may help some drivers into the lower leagues & increase participation.

The biggest barrier for females trying to be successful sim racers is the same one as darts & snooker.There are simply to many men willing to practice for long hours indoors looking at a screen just to get good at their hobby.
 
Top