CG vs. Non-CG

I apologise in advance because this thread is not in a light mood and may anger/upset some people, but this is my view, feel free to post yours.

Recently Racer has come leaps and bounds and now rivals the graphics of GT5 and IMHO can be better. So it really irritates me when I see all the crap that is being released these days. I'm not going to deny it, this post really rubbed me the wrong way:

AMGfan(BPM) said:
concept is cooler than creat real cars .. real cars i prefer to convert, it is easier and practical than waiting a good person called angel to do from scratch a car that i like very much. After Tiberius's jag and my booster, harey's caravans and anothers, we have no more new car made from scratch for here..

This is in no way an attack solely on AMGfan, I know he's good at converting cars but therein lies the problem.
When cars are created for a game the artist creates the model around the game engine. Racer currently uses OpenGL and CG (In it's latest guise) and this is COMPLETELY different to basically all games out there. Taking a car from say, GTA and converting it to Racer will end up with ****, however you polish it, unless you spend a lot of time on the car, that time you invest should be equal IMO to creating a car from scratch, otherwise you're releasing a half-assed effort that will inevitably be ****.

I can't speak for all artists but it really angers me when you spend so much time and effort modelling a car, taking note of the nuances of the car body, the shapes and flow of the car body and ending up with a car mesh you're really happy with and proud of only to have some guy post a 2 hour or 2 day conversion which ends up **** but gets all the attention.
Artists put hours of care and attention into their meshes and when your work ends up getting shunned for some ****ty conversion, it really disheartens you and makes you think twice about releasing content again.

Now, I've never lost the urge to release content, and I am extremely proud of my work, this is why I cannot understand why people are still releasing content and planning content to be sub-par. Why would you release a car or track not wanting it to look the best it can?
This is where the CG vs. Non-CG debate comes in.
CG is clearly the way forward. I can within 5 minutes, load up a website and order a graphics card capable of running CG for less than 50AUD.
In a week I spend more on petrol than that. I cannot fathom how 70 or 80% of the Racer community can't spare $50 to buy a graphics card.
Bear in mind that with this you could play all the new games coming out, you might need to upgrade your CPU in the end but it's a good starting point for a new PC.

I've been lurking around these forums since the move. I was at RSC for a few years before the shutdown and I believe I'm one of the longest members of the Racer community.
In the time I've been around I've learnt a lot about cars and modelling, physics and have since started my career in 3d art.
My career is important to me because I love what I do. If I'm not content with what I'm producing I'll dump it all and start again because I want an end product I'm proud of.

It really angers me when the community is so ungrateful of all the time and effort Ruud puts into a game you get for FREE that's one of the best platforms you'll ever experience.

No, it's not Ruud's fault ATi cards are **** with OGL, it's ATi's fault, stop blaming him.
On that note, stop complaining that you don't have a Non-CG edition of the latest version of Racer to play with. If you want to keep up with the development and progress of this great simulator fork out $50 and buy yourself a new GPU, you'll thank yourself for it.

I'm making no apologies for any of my opinions here, I stand by everything I say and believe that Racer has so much potential that's yet to be recognised.

Ruud is trying to move the game forward. The community is holding Racer back.
 
I don't think that a converters forum and a scratch made forum would be a good idea. What we need is people like camsinny to stop being haters and try to destroy other users reputation and work.

Btw, can anyone indicate me a car made by camsinny? I'm not finding any! I mean... for him to criticise others work, he must have made at least one car right? ;)
 
I don't think that a converters forum and a scratch made forum would be a good idea. What we need is people like camsinny to stop being haters and try to destroy other users reputation and work.

Btw, can anyone indicate me a car made by camsinny? I'm not finding any! I mean... for him to criticise others work, he must have made at least one car right? ;)



i think we should just ban him and get it over with i mean i am utterly inlove with yer fury i still cant believe that you got the floaty part down pat finally hehe could i possiably prod you into converying that thunderbird lol Or this would be an awesome car on racer the dodge diplomat i used to ride in one its a true tank would go right along with yer fury hell even that scamp and ill be happy XD
 
All those stars and rude words .... make me feel bad.. Being rude and cruel doesn't help it you know. Every body may has his own opinion and is free to share it right? If you don't like this, don't reply to this thread, its the same with converting cars, if you don't like them...

;)
 
To be honest I'm not against converted cars, but I don't think they are things I'd ever download and use and put in my Racer folder and keep forever.

I still have all Stecki's cars, bumpers cars, and Some1's original cars. They are all really well finished. But most conversions are not 'finished'


I guess everyone has different standards of what they like. As said earlier, I must have 50 converted cars but I've never released a single one. I only use them for development/ideas/ini works etc etc...


It really is all in the details, and half of these cars from other games use special shaders or controls in the engine to either cover up issues, or the cars just come out of the box with less than perfect settings.


Thats fine, but when I see the chrome exhaust of the SL65 AMG shining brightly under the car, I wonder why there wasn't a control map applied to shade out the reflection... it's those little details that converters won't work on. They will work with what is there already, but add very little extra to make the cars have real polish and finished touches.


I've done conversions from scratch built cars, my own scratch built cars, helped put other scratch built cars, helped do ini's for conversions, and scratch built cars, and even used manufacturer meshes (from them!) to make cars... and in my vast experience with Racer at least, the best looking stuff is scratch made from start to finish by ONE author, almost specifically for Racer...
That said, the best made cars are made so well they could work well anywhere...

My 2p. If in doubt, look at Stecki's work. If you work doesn't look like his, then it could be better :D


Again, not hating on converters, I've done it in the past, I enjoy the odd one for fun, but they are in almost all cases, lacking in details and polish... the reason for that, the converter would be mad to invest significant time and effort into a mesh that they couldn't take 100% credit for. Ergo they avoid re-building mesh work, texture unwrapping, improving texturing, remodelling entire parts etc etc...
Again, no harm in that, we are all free to do what we want to do.
I did the same with Manuitus's M5 years ago, and I learnt a big lesson. I could have made my own M5 better, in less time, and got all the credit, haha!


I could honestly make better conversions of all the cars I've seen converted so far, but I'd be spending loads of my time simply re-hashing others work. It gives me no satisfaction, nothing to flap my arms about to a prospective employer, no kudos in the car modelling community, or the 3d community as a whole.
It's just time consuming and empty work.

They would be fun to use in Racer of course, but for me Racer is more about enjoying making the content and THEN using it :D


Peace :D

Dave
 
All those stars and rude words .... make me feel bad.. Being rude and cruel doesn't help it you know. Every body may has his own opinion and is free to share it right? If you don't like this, don't reply to this thread, its the same with converting cars, if you don't like them...

;)

I agree with you Migus, but you have to mind the way that camsinny also spooke ;)

I'm very hot-blooded, and when the thing gets in my nerve, it may get ugly...

Sorry for anything ;)
 
Well I'm not that involved in the Racer community but I thought I'd share my opinion as well.

Regarding converted models I don't mind it at all. Personally I haven't moved a polygon in over 5 years. I use parametric CAD modeling with mechanical and fluid dynamics simulations to create the parts. Then I just import into 3DS and the polygon-mesh is automatically generated. IMO it doesn't matter how the model is created. However I've noticed that many cars in the post_pictures_thread are private. Would be nice if more cars were public, but I guess thats down to the creator of the original model...

As for CG vs. Non-CG I found the new eye-candy very impressive when I installed the latest Racer half a year ago, but it's not important for me. When I drive a new car in any game I look at the graphics only the first minute or so and then its all about the driving. I've driven some mods in GTL and rFactor and for me the physics is what makes me drive the car over and over. The graphics don't have to be that good. Same goes for the tracks. If people can't use CG it should be a switchable feature so that more people could continue to contribute.

It would be great if there were more focus on the physics. Things like simulation of turbos, suspension kinematics, flexible joints and chassis flex. Also pitch/yaw/RH-sensitive aerodynamics would be a great addition. Finally the tire model!

Just my two cents:)
 
Well I'm not that involved in the Racer community but I thought I'd share my opinion as well.

Regarding converted models I don't mind it at all. Personally I haven't moved a polygon in over 5 years. I use parametric CAD modeling with mechanical and fluid dynamics simulations to create the parts. Then I just import into 3DS and the polygon-mesh is automatically generated. IMO it doesn't matter how the model is created. However I've noticed that many cars in the post_pictures_thread are private. Would be nice if more cars were public, but I guess thats down to the creator of the original model...

As for CG vs. Non-CG I found the new eye-candy very impressive when I installed the latest Racer half a year ago, but it's not important for me. When I drive a new car in any game I look at the graphics only the first minute or so and then its all about the driving. I've driven some mods in GTL and rFactor and for me the physics is what makes me drive the car over and over. The graphics don't have to be that good. Same goes for the tracks. If people can't use CG it should be a switchable feature so that more people could continue to contribute.

It would be great if there were more focus on the physics. Things like simulation of turbos, suspension kinematics, flexible joints and chassis flex. Also pitch/yaw/RH-sensitive aerodynamics would be a great addition.

Just my two cents:)


THANK YOU FINALLY SOMEONE TALKS SOME SENSE IN THIS PLACE! *BOWS TO THE GOD OF COMMON SENSE* sir you are a savior XD anyway splash you dont have to be hotblodded XD ill be plenty enough for you XD i wil defend Everyone but i wont tolerate flaming Vote in that poll and lets see how it turns out
 
The truth is few members since rsc cant support the idea a converted car can has excelent quality than scratch one. I lose my count how many times I saw criticism about cars which isnt scratch made only to use in racer. I can catch now the "best"cars in racer, made from scratch, and find a couple of problems, unrealistic handling, poor sounds, but i wont. Cause i know someone did an effort on it. Well, cars in GTA is scratch made too, but made to work in another game. I still dont looking where is the problem on this. As Cosmo said, it is a simulator of car, not a renderer championship, or NFS fame gallery.

As my friends says, haters, I love you, you keep me motivated.

I think as long as the criticism of the car is correct (model inaccurate, ini inaccurate, etc.) the creator should do what they can to improve it.

Otherwise, it just feels like the project is abandoned as soon as the car reaches some minimal quality level. I don't enjoy half finished cars as much as complete ones, that look nice and drive nice.

Anything modeled with a specific game in mind is gonna have features that suit that game. There's no universal "car" format that specifies everything a car model needs in a way that looks good in every game - you tweak the little things to work correctly, and often follow the lead of other people doing models.

For example, a lot of cars made for GTA don't have the fully mapped body. I can't say why this is cause I've never constructed vehicles for GTA, but it's something that really stands out in Racer - where most of the highest quality models (by Stecki et al) do have the body mapped and ambient light baked in.

Just speaking for myself, I will wait for good quality scratch made cars to be released, rather than download a convert that was finished in 1/2 the time. I think the idea that cars should be made quicker is harmful to everyone in the community - creators stressing to get stuff done, and players having to sift through poor quality content which runs poorly and doesn't take advantage of all the new features Ruud is adding.
 
I don't think that a converters forum and a scratch made forum would be a good idea.

That's not what I meant. I just meant that perhaps there should be another forum for people to post conversions, I don't mean to separate the community. I just think that we need a place so that we can keep conversions away from the people who dislike them, just to avoid conflict, plus it gives us a place to share, discuss and compare conversions and conversion methods. In all the years I've been in the Racer community, it's not something I've seen.
 
I apologise for the delay in replys, guy's gotta sleep.

First off, I've got to clarify something. I never said (or at least had no intention of saying) that all conversions are ****. If you re-read my post I said that unless you seriously invest time and effort into the car then it will end up ****. I said in my original post that I think AMGfan does a great job of conversions, but IMHO, like Mr. Whippy, they just aren't something I'm interested in having in my racer folder.

There are clearly a lot of hot heads around here and I, for one, am usually not a confrontational guy, but when people like ZATRACERDUDE decide to take half/false information out of my post it really does infuriate me. Read the bloody post again. You really have the wrong attitude here too, I'm being constructive in my criticism, trying to tell convertors to spend more time on the cars to try to get them to a more polished standard. It's ironic how you're accusing me of flaming when I commended AMG in my post and then you go and attack me and say that I should be banned for flaming. I'm following all the forum rules, sure there's a few choice words in there but sometimes you need to find a word to perfectly describe something.

Also, I'm not rich. I saved up with my own money to buy my computer and sacrificed luxuries that I usually enjoy to have the rig I do now. I'm studying also and Raphael it's great to hear that you saved and got a rig you're happy with, it seems we have similar machines.
But most of you are missing the point I was trying to get across...
Sure, I understand that the world isn't perfect and prices vary hugely from country to country. But in the end there's always somewhere else you can get things. Order online, it's usually cheaper that way anyway. Ebay. Whatever.
That's still not my point. Racer is free you might pay $50 for NFS Shift, $120 for the Collectors Edition of Mass Effect 2 but when you're getting a game for free can't you offset the price of hardware into that?
I also understand that people can't upgrade certain setups. I have a laptop and I was lucky enough to get one with an nvidia card that can run CG. Actually it can't run the newer stuff but that's no problem. There are also slim pcs and microATX towers and mobos and yadda yadda yadda. My point is that if you have the option to upgrade, take it. Tell yourself you're buying a $50 game and it'll be fine.

Now, if you don't know any of the cars I've released it's because you haven't been in the community for long enough. Sure, my first models were ****, I'll admit that now. But one of the people I respect the most on these forums is 2o6. He's learning to model and is slowly but surely making a car that has potential.
My contribution to the community is much more that just modelling cars. I'll be the first to admit that I'm quite **** at developing ini's. I'll palm off making an ini to someone who knows it like Mr. Whippy quicker than you can say ****.

It's exceedingly hard to reply to 29 different posts so I apologise if I've missed a point but I'm trying.

I think it might be a good idea to have a separate release thread for conversions, or probably better to have one for scratch made cars since there are a lot fewer of them so there'd be less work involved in moving thread that are already there. I also think the "Post your pics" thread should be limited to either cars that are going to be released or cars that are released.

A lot of the older, more mature members have said what I've tried to say and understand my points. People like Mr. Whippy and Cosmo and Knut.
Certain people are completely missing my point and taking it as a personal attack, maybe you people should read things again and consider being level headed when replying. I'm trying to make racer the best it can be. I understand that conversions are a large part of racer, there aren't many people who can model cars from scratch but I think more time should be spent on them to get them to a better release level. I'm not saying people shouldn't release conversions, I encourage more content for racer, but I believe that if you're serious about racer, which if you're releasing content you should be, you should be spending more time on the content.

I've been there, I've converted content, I know what it's like and what you need to do.
I know how easy it is to say, yep that's done. Since it's not your model it's SO much easier to say that.
Me and Mr. Whippy are alike in this respect. I know 3 or 4 cars he's made that he hasn't released because he's not happy with the quality of them. He wants the cars to be the very best they can before releasing them to the public.
That's the kind of attention to detail a lot of scratch modellers put into their work.
I currently have about 10 cars I COULD release but don't want to because they're not complete. If I released them I'd probably never get back to them and make them to the quality racer deserves.
This is a completely different attitude to what I get from the convertors in this community. It might not be the case but that's what it seems like since there is a lot of converted content downloadable for racer.

ZATRACERDUDE.
Yes, you.

Please punctuate your posts.
I currently see no full stops, no commas and only one capital letter in the post I'm looking at.
It makes it exceptionally hard to reply to anything you say. Wait, no there is more than one capital letter but they just got mashed in there with the rest of the letters.

Awesome amgfan to see they aint getting you down Dont worry we got yer back no whineing babies are gonna run off awesome content creators like you splash and all i say we should grab pitchforks a few torches some shotguns and form an angry anti whining baby lynch mob Xd if not lets just have a seperate release and wip thread for converted cars than scratch made instead of a seperate fourm totally its stupid to think they are running us off from our fourm course i still say we just squash this rebellion right here and now show the haters uprisings against the estabilishment will not be tolerated lol but im sur e if its called for the mods will just swing the banhammers and restore order i still say dont let em run us from our fourm let the mods move em over into their own area where they can whine and cry all they want and one tought for you to digest haters is Howlong does it take to create a scratchmade car Look howlong it took for the concept competeion if we waited around for scratchmade wed all be playing with a lambo and nothing else XD so take that stuff it in yer pipe and smoke it
There is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to start.
But I'd like to start by saying this: respectfully, I cannot honestly call AMGfan and Splash "Content Creators" they're good "Convertors"
You have the complete wrong attitude for this forum and this thread.
Also
cause these people who convert put a ell of alot more love blood sweat and tears into the cars than you will ever imagine
I'll just leave this here, it's best not to say anything in this case.


If this thread is not going to be productive at all, please, mods, delete it.
I simply wanted to make my point that Racer cannot grow to be the awesome game you all want it to be if we're using sub-par content.

I apologise to Ruud for the split in the community, but IMHO this really did need to be addressed. As AMG said this thread was a long time coming, someone had to put it out there and I'm glad it is in the open now.
We should take this chance to better the Racer community instead of dividing it. I'm sure everyone here has gotten hours of entertainment and education out of Racer but it's not even at its peak.
Racer continues to grow and change, I just don't want it to grow up to be crippled because of the content that is released for it.
 
No, you have your point, i understand you, but i disagree. I have my point, my 2 cents. Please mods, dont delete it, racer's forum was missing so much time a thread like this. We have nothing to hide here.

To start a friendly finish, i suggest that moderators (Bram maybe), start 2 differente CARS main threads in RD home. It is clear that we have people here who don't like converted stuff, and people who prefer 2-hours made converted car. It is simple, fast, and who don't like converted cars can ignore new releases in the another thread. RD mods use to dont know, but it is a very long time conflict between scratch and convert. It is like a religion, someone can defend to the death just the point of opinion.

As for some persons converted car isn't a good stuff, excepting sam jigga's scratch made cars, i dont have in my racer folder any other. Many people say it got 2 years to finish, but honestly, i can't see where is the perfection. For my deals, my converted cars are enough. I know, everybody has one head, one mind. I wont modify it, and nobody will modify my way of mind.

To preserve the whole the contents, the relationship about many users, my suggestion is appreciated.

i.e. Main menu on RD Forum

Racer Problems & Fixes
Use this forum to report bugs to the developer
View this forum's RSS feed
Subscribe to This Forum
Threads: 52
Posts: 389

Racer Converted Cars
Discuss your work in progress or released converted cars here.
View this forum's RSS feed
Subscribe to This Forum
Threads: 58
Posts: 1,243

Racer Scratch made Cars
Discuss your work in progress or released converted cars here.
View this forum's RSS feed
Subscribe to This Forum
Threads: 6
Posts: 115


Racer Tracks
Discuss your work in progress or released tracks here.

And this is it, live goes on.
 
The thing is, you then have good conversions and bad ones. Splitting them makes no sense.

Just put "conversion" at the end of the thread title, then it is clear. Then even have in the header post the source of the mesh and the work done etc, since it will be interesting to see it! (look how they do it over at TDU C, almost EVERY car is a conversion, and they give all the details of the source of the work etc)

Dave
 
Thanks to Camsinny for starting this thread, I've spent the last hour reading it all!

I've been with Racer since Ver 0.049 and it took me a year to make my first track (Watkins Glen) another year to make a car ( Formula V) and get it to work like the one I owned. I have made several other cars and tracks, some realeased, some not. My choice. My cars and track still work good in ver 0.089 with a few minor problems.

We have WIP classification and a RELEASED classification in the cars/tracks threads, BUT THEY ARE NOT USED PROPERLY, imho.

Cnoverted and scratch built cars/tracks need to STAY IN THE WIP class until the bugs and errors are corrected. That is when members of the community are free to comment on the work of the creator of the car/track, AND NOT RECLASSED AS RELEASED until all items are corrected!

I have no prblems with people converting cars/tracks, primarily my problem is with people making a car/track released with Qlog and other errors!

I never figured out how to convert a car/track, I was too busy making tutorials for Blender to show how to make proper cars/tracks!

Just my 2 cents!
 
I think the respect the two above Different opinions is the best to the. Because if it's like this or like that always Will Have a Different Opinion and all sink at the community. It's my opinion, no changes and more respect. Do Went off the alarm all the time when someone post something here,i thought kill all our work was not the intention.But anyway,that was my opinion,and I want respect like I respect all the persons in this Forum. = D Let's work maturely here. I love you all. *-* HAHAHAH' (GaGa moment only to be funny)
 
lol i will admit my grammer isnt great but its also half way funny to see everyone get all bent out of shape to read my posts just consider it yer daily brain teaser and cam you did go on the offensive because i wasnt the only one offended by it as you can obviously see but instead of pouring gas on the cinders im going to let you sit there and insult and make all the comments you want i really dont care about yer opinion and choose to ignore it completely i will respect amg splash whippy and Everyone who makes this place the fun interesting thing to be a part of that it is as far as my grammer goes Dont read my posts XD so i will say calling me out is futile i will only allow you to make a fool of yerself i said what i felt yesterday and that All i will say on the matter so with that good sir i bid you Ah due
 
The thing is, you then have good conversions and bad ones. Splitting them makes no sense.

Just put "conversion" at the end of the thread title, then it is clear. Then even have in the header post the source of the mesh and the work done etc, since it will be interesting to see it! (look how they do it over at TDU C, almost EVERY car is a conversion, and they give all the details of the source of the work etc)

Dave

Since you brought that up, maybe we need a template for 'mods' like they have. Then date like that can be filled out and displayed in the thread.

And perhaps we should have a prefix for converts?
 

Latest News

Online or Offline racing?

  • 100% online racing

    Votes: 92 7.7%
  • 75% online 25% offline

    Votes: 125 10.5%
  • 50% online 50% offline

    Votes: 171 14.3%
  • 25% online 75% offline

    Votes: 335 28.1%
  • 100% offline racing

    Votes: 465 39.0%
  • Something else, explain in comment

    Votes: 4 0.3%
Back
Top