Cancer Research UK Support Winter Series

[Mo Selvarajah]

Mo I would ask that you respect the other drivers. That last post bordered on disrespectful with your comment about english language. This is a charity event so I doubt people will be putting 100s of laps in anyway as its the winter break so your comment is irrelevant. Also if you think that just by having the right setup there would only be a difference of one tenth or half a tenth then you are sadly mistaken. Sorry harsh reality check. I am offering my setups as I said and I'm sure others will do the same as this does not involve prize money or anything. You can tune a setup to yourself actually because I achieved at Abu Dhabi very similar times to a teammate with completely different setups. Ask him if you want.

This is a charity event and as such the chances of drivers doing 100s of laps like they do for the main series are very very small. Plus there will only be 1 week gaps between some of the races so that opportunity wont be there anyway.

Fixed setups will not be happening so this argument ends now and I want no more bickering. Neither of you are giving good publicity for this event.

erm...............i said
'I dont even understand this sentence. Is english your first language? if not then i apologise.'

.............that was not intended to be a joke or funny or offensive...........that was a genuine statement because i know that most of us are not from UK and therefore I understand if people cannot type in proper sentences or if the english is a bit broken up, therefore I always make a concession with people just incase, by saying 'If english is not your first language, I apologise'

i was not saying that sarcastically.

My comment is not irrelevant at all, for reasons i've already said in my previous posts.
Making this event fixed setup would improve the racing because the grid would be tighter. The grid would be tighter because setups make a huge difference in simgames. There is a spectrum of setups, ranging from Good to Bad, relative to the game. Then there is a spectrum of setups that suit individual driver styles. However those setups will be marginal, versus the setups that are Good through to Bad, relative to the game.

There is a reason why teams in FSR don't share their setups with anyone..................................because time is spent engineering them to give them an advantage, obviously. If setups were not that big a deal everyone would be helping everyone else and sharing setups.

If the grid is tighter, it makes the racing more competitive, and makes for a better event.

At no point did anyone go 'this event is not open to any discussion, this is it', and so i was perfectly entitled to give my opinion, which i gave with valid reasons.

As for publicity - my arguments have got nothing to do with the cancer research foundation, the act of giving money for charity, or of the event itself.
Again, I am purely making the case for having the racing event fixed setup versus open setup. Its not my problem if people cannot stand for any kind of discussion, or if people disagree with other people. You have completely spun my issue and made it about the charity and the event itself, which is totally false.

All of you who have criticised me have either not understood the argument, taken it in some weird emotional way, or made up arguments for areas i haven't even mentioned.

if this is the way events are organised and thought through (i.e. not very well) then i certainly dont want to be a part of it. So far you have given no coherent reason as to why open setup is better than fixed setup. I have made a very clear case as to why Fixed setup would make the racing more competitive.

 

[GamerMuscle]

Fixed set-up makes allot more sense for the following reasons

• The grid as a whole will be closer

• The car on car racing will be closer

• Its an opportunity to see who actually has the most skill as a driver rather than who has the most skill as a driver + set-up ( which is already tested in the WC)

There seems to be some confusion about set-ups and how they affect racing with some of the posts I have read so to be concise I will list some more points.

• Top level set-ups as would be found in WC race are good because they exploit limitations in the given games physics engine.

• Top level set-ups are not designed around driver accommodation, in real life they are but in sim racing because of how shallow things are compared to reality for example the way tires ware , how temperature and ware effects the actual driving physics and the fact that you can put the time in to learn any set on a replicable track. Its better as a driver to adapt to a set-up than it it is to make a set-up that accommodates the driver.

• If you are within 0.700 of the pace with an average set-up then you will be at a skill level where you could drive any top level set-up to within 0.200 with that set

• Because of the limitations of current generation simulators Its a simple fact that when you get to within 0.500 or so of the pace everyone has to adopt largely the same driving style, Especially in games like RF1 and i racing with F1 cars that suffer from strange tire behaver when on and around the limit forcing a on rails memorise the track and brake points and not test it way of driving.

• A good neutral set-up can still be customized and tweaked to drivers preference to some extent though brake bias , though again when within 0.500 or so of the pole time you will probably see people gravitating towards even the same bias.

I have probably missed loads of pertinent points but surely for a charity race you would want to level the field as much as possible , its a simple fact that fixed set-up would do this even more so than shared set-ups let alone private set-up.

Why do you think us race fans that are into the core aspects of driving love to watch when current F1 drivers do fixed set-up events or go carting , Its preciselybecause you end up with proper close racing which magnifies the drivers individualrace craftability outside of what the car or team can do.

Thanks for taking the time to read all my points if you did , Happy racing !

 

[David Dominguez]

Because of the limitations of current generation simulators Its a simple fact that when you get to within 0.500 or so of the pace everyone has to adopt largely the same driving style, Especially in games like RF1 and i racing with F1 cars that suffer from strange tire behaver when on and around the limit forcing a on rails memorise the track and brake points and not test it way of driving.

No.

There is an interesting reading here, using Bono as example: http://www.formula-simracing.net/news/35-wc/564-season-analysis-i-bono-huis

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

David is right, this thread contains a lot of nonsense. Anyone who watched WC Q2 broadcasts onboards this year saw that Huis raced with a very different style than Morand. Morand had his car set up to turn in quickly with the rear going loose on each exit, while Precision cars had good exit traction but suffered in entries at places. This was pretty much the trend throughout the season. From what I've also heard, many team mates found it impossible to adopt their driving to Morand's setups, but they worked for him.

 

[Thomas Mundy]

Thank you John and David. Setups do differ from driver to driver as I said. Styles are different. Lets just forget this now and move on. Mo if you don't wanna race thats your choice. I've removed you from the list. You have given your reasons but several of us disagree with your reasons and I think David's article posted will be enough to say why. I don't mind you stating your opinion on a subject that is fine but it is just an opinion and not necessarily fact.

On a more positive note I've recieved an email from SRTV so that will all be sorted in plenty of time for race. Also to give you a heads up the server will be up in the week leading up to the first race, 24 hours a day. At the moment its being used by MAK-Corp for something else but will be available after 9th December.

 

[Mo Selvarajah]

David is right, this thread contains a lot of nonsense. Anyone who watched WC Q2 broadcasts onboards this year saw that Huis raced with a very different style than Morand. Morand had his car set up to turn in quickly with the rear going loose on each exit, while Precision cars had good exit traction but suffered in entries at places. This was pretty much the trend throughout the season. From what I've also heard, many team mates found it impossible to adopt their driving to Morand's setups, but they worked for him.

Sorry i just do not agree.
There is no way Rfactor provides enough depth to the gameplay, to be able to drive the cars fundamentally differently using different styles.
The game allows such limited slip angles before losing all grip that it forces you to drive to the games parameters. Therefore no matter how different you say the styles are, the variety of the styles of driving will be Nothing like what you find in real life.

And even then, in real F1, only a trained eye or avid motorsport follower will be able to clearly see and differentiate between 1 style and another, Let alone in Rfactor where you have to drive to the games narrow parameters of tyre slip. If there was a style which suited Rfactor best, it would be Buttons style, not Hamiltons. It forces you to drive more like Button than Hamilton.

So sorry, what you say just isn't true. There is no way the broadcasts would 'show' these styles, partly because the broadcasts aren't accurate enough and have some latency. Youre probably picking this up from hearing the sounds of the engine and what you're familiar with from the approach of both drivers, and if there is a difference it will be Totally marginal. Infact i bet if you were to overlay the telemetry between the 2, the differences would be totally negligible, looking at the steering/throttle/brake inputs, especially compared to the differences you'd see between a button or a hamilton, or a Schumacher v Herbert (youtube 1994 schumacher driving style analysis)

For the purposes of this discussion, it would be genuinely interesting to see the telemetry of Huis and Morand and overlay them. Watching a Q2 broadcast simply is not good enough to come to a conclusion.

 

[Mo Selvarajah]

No.

There is an interesting reading here, using Bono as example: http://www.formula-simracing.net/news/35-wc/564-season-analysis-i-bono-huis

Youve just proved Gamermuscle's points correct, with that.

To visualize the driving characteristics of Huis, let's take a concrete example. The below screenshots (IstanbulPark, sector 3) show the corner apex approach of the top cars in qualifying 1. As can be seen, the Precision carof Huis has a very different line through this section than his opponents, making full use of the track width.Coincidence or not, Huis gained over a tenth in the three-corner complex compared to his closest competitors.

Reading about the 'driving style of Huis' bit in the interview, he is talking about corner approach and driving line, which has nothing to do with specific driving technique (i.e. steering throttle brake inputs).
Also note - whoever wrote this reckons it gained Huis a tenth. 1 tenth. 1 tiny Tenth. This highlights the point. If there is any difference in driving style, the Difference in time will be absolutely minimal, Completely negligible at best, compared to the difference between a setup a pro is using in the top 10 in WC, and a setup that some noob at the back of the World trophy field is using

Gamermuscle gave a parameter of Half a second.

That then concludes with this:

'So in other words, it's not so much about having a better "feeling of the car" and raging maneuvres in the cockpit a la Morris, but rather the calculated approach that give Bono the advantage?

Exactly. If I may cite a description on the forum: "the Alonso of FSR".'

So...you see the point.To further ram home the point, in the same article, it also says this

But sim racing is many other things than just natural talent. Does the wunderkid also possess the powers of Red Bull setuping skills and Brawn strategy?

No, with all those quantities he would lap everyone. Seriously speaking, sim racing is a team effort, which Bono has understood. The sim racer who thinks he can master everything himself, from setup, to strategy and driving, will fail. There is no need to be an expert in every possible area as long as you are open to teamwork.
Bono never had the engineer brain to care about and understand how every piston in his car interacts. But he is able to provide accurate feedback on track, which helps team engineers work on the right bolts. In that sense, a big part of the success can be attributed to Precision Motorsports.

i.e. It was more to do with the team and the setup they could create, or engineer, rather than Huis' driving (although he allowed them to create a good setup because of his feedback)

 

[Mo Selvarajah]

Thank you John and David. Setups do differ from driver to driver as I said. Styles are different. Lets just forget this now and move on.

Why? Who made you the boss of when discussions should be started and stopped? This is an open thread and I am perfectly entitled to discuss things in an appropriate manner for as long as I want, until the thread is closed.

Mo if you don't wanna race thats your choice. I've removed you from the list. You have given your reasons but several of us disagree with your reasons and I think David's article posted will be enough to say why.

Nope, the article proves nothing, and I've responded to David about it.

I don't mind you stating your opinion on a subject that is fine but it is just an opinion and not necessarily fact.

Well at some point you have to draw a line and work out what is fact and what is fiction. There are some opinions which are more valid than others. You have to judge which are more valid than others by critically evaluating those opinions, and seeing if theres any Evidence to back up those opinions. Something becomes a fact when it has plenty of good evidence to back up the opinion, turning it into a fact.

So far i have not seen any decent argument, good evidence or reasoning to suggest that an Open setup is better than a fixed setup for closer racing, which is what this discussion is about.

I believe this is an appropriate thread to discuss it in, because someone (not me) mentioned fixed setup, and there have been a couple of other people including me in favour of fixed setup, so it is clearly a topic worth discussing. Maybe it merits a thread of its own. Fine.

 

[Lars Brugman]

You guys also looking forward to this?

 

[Ron Squire]

MO THAT IS ENOUGH I AM FED UP WITH YOUR BICKERING

 

[Jan Schmidt]

Bickering? I just see a discussion ...

 

[Ron Squire]

ok Discussion then

 

[Chris Knight]

guys really cut it out this is for charity...

do people do fun runs to win no. its the taking part that counts.

 

[David Dominguez]

Sorry i just do not agree.
There is no way Rfactor provides enough depth to the gameplay, to be able to drive the cars fundamentally differently using different styles.
The game allows such limited slip angles before losing all grip that it forces you to drive to the games parameters. Therefore no matter how different you say the styles are, the variety of the styles of driving will be Nothing like what you find in real life.

Same as IRL. Or do you see F1 drivers constantly sliding or drifting? Those tires are peaking at very very low slip angles. In fact I'd say that they are peaking at less slip angles than in FSR mods.

 

[GamerMuscle]

David is right, this thread contains a lot of nonsense. Anyone who watched WC Q2 broadcasts onboards this year saw that Huis raced with a very different style than Morand. Morand had his car set up to turn in quickly with the rear going loose on each exit, while Precision cars had good exit traction but suffered in entries at places. This was pretty much the trend throughout the season. From what I've also heard, many team mates found it impossible to adopt their driving to Morand's setups, but they worked for him.

Why would you have to use Morand's set-up or a person who has a set that you claim people find hard to drive ?

Surely you would make the closed set-up a good all around general set, in the end that way everyone is racing with the same potential.

I also doubt a sim racer that was within 0.500 of Morand's time with there set could not over the course of 50 laps adapt to Morands's and then improve on there time.

I guess we wont ever know for sure because this whole set-up culture makes everyone secretive and makes it imposable to know for sure how much of the skill was the driver and how much was from the set-up.

Fixed set is an opportunity to have a fair drivers race for a change , which is one of the largest advantages of sim racing. Its bizarre to me that we have so many leagues with an obsession with car set-ups rather than a focus on the core racing.

Sure having team leagues with open set-ups is fine why not , but it seems as if that's the default within Sim-racing league culture , when its a simple fact that closed set-up racing would provide for far more entertaining and closer races for both the drivers and the viewers.

As for the charity aspect I'd urge people to just give money to charity, we don't need an excuse. Though if a random event gives it exposure and gives more people the impetus to donate then that cannot be a bad thing.


Anyway thanks for considering what I have written, in the end I'm sure everyone is appreciative of the people that put the time and effort into organizing things regardless of how they choose configure it .

 

[Tamas Vargyasi]

MO THAT IS ENOUGH I AM FED UP WITH YOUR BICKERING

Ron, I wonder how it could be if you were the new president.

 

[Johannes Kunkel]

This whole discussion has gone a bit out of hand, and I think some of the people who state their "facts" here should think again, and maybe lower the tone of their messages.

The problem with fixed setups is it would give most people an advantage, but on the other hand it gives some people a dissadvantage because they can´t drive the way they feel comfortable. Even if some people don´t want to believe it, you can drive the same car in rFactor with totally different setups and totally different drivingstyles and end up with the same laptimes, 2012 being the perfect example. And of course you can judge drivers by replays alone, not as well as you could by comparing the telemetry, but the differences between Morand and Huis as example were so big that it was easily visible in the replays.

For this event I can see a point for and against fixed setups, but I think offering a setup to everyone as Scott said he will do is a good choice for such an event and it leaves others with the chance to adjust the setup to their needs. Afterall it´s always the best driver winning and not the best setup.

 

[Ron Squire]

Ron, I wonder how it could be if you were the new president.

i would really say 'Mo i suggest you keep the bickering down to a minimum or your gone like Martin Christensen or the Sim-Dream.com world series team

 

[Mo Selvarajah]

i would really say 'Mo i suggest you keep the bickering down to a minimum or your gone like Martin Christensen or the Sim-Dream.com world series team

lol this is absurd, so now discussion is a form of bickering which is outlawed? Im trying to have a serious and normal discussion about a debatable topic, if not many people agree that is no reason for it to be outlawed.

Just because the masses might agree on something does not make it correct or true.
Ive so far done nothing that might require a ban of any kind, i have not called anyone any names, i havent 'trolled' anyone, this is pathetic.

 

[Mo Selvarajah]

i would really say 'Mo i suggest you keep the bickering down to a minimum or your gone like Martin Christensen or the Sim-Dream.com world series team

Do what you want Ron, if this is how you run FSR then i certainly dont want to be part of such an organization.

you will find however that, like with science or life in general...if you dont allow for debate or discussion, things dont really progress.

I have taken the effort to be specific in my posts, respond to clear points from other posters, and have tried to use real life examples and even carefully read the piece of evidence that David proposed.
Also im clearly not the only person who thinks fixed setup would be better for this sort of event, its not a complete minority view - and therefore worth discussing further.

What i got back was you going in capital letters 'i am fed up with your bickering'.

I dont consider that to be very professional, and its rather childish to be honest.