Can sim racers advance into real world motor racing?

[assettonoob]

120 kph, what's that in MPH?

EDIT: 74 miles per hour... You'll get there Are you talking race license or road license?

Either way, take it slow and DON'T drive beyond *your* limits! As a new driver, your limits are very likely to be much lower than the limits of the worst car on the market. Don't try and "overdrive" the car, try to relax and above all, enjoy it! Speed and confidence will come in time

Words to drive by. When you're young you think that because you're braking and accelerating suddenly you're 'fast' but you're just over-driving the car, and you're more likely to have an accident. Smoother and slower pedals means faster and safer driving. Driving is weird like that!

 

[Dan Allen]

@assettonoob - Not just pedals, steering input too. I was amazed how much understeer I avoided by using a combination of slow in-fast out and smooth steering.

On a different note - I'm sorry to take the thread back to a dead conversation, but on the subject of FOV, I changed mine using an FOV calculator to a value of 24 degrees as the calculator recommended. Look at the improvement on my lap time.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=403514744

FOV matters folks!

Apologies to the OP. I think I may have helped steer this conversation far away from the point we are supposed to be discussing.

 

[speed_steward]

@Dan Allen is right... we sim race because we simply can't afford the real thing. Then after years of sim racing, one would begin to realize that this is what's reality. Real life racing just isn't going to happen. Then end up falling in love with sim racing, it becomes one of the best things to happen to you/experience, obsessive with sim rig customization, getting involved with sim racing communities and racing with like minded people from all over the world.

Sim racing can be something that leads to an opportunity into real life motor sports. VSR will not teach you how to race a real race car but gives you an idea of what racing is about. Transit bus drivers are placed in simulator before they are trained driving real buses. Police officers are trained in simulated physical and verbal conflicts before they are put into the real life situation. Simulated experiences already leads to promising careers or is used for practice/training. So why can't the same be said for sim racing leading to a full time spot in real motorsports?
If only race teams could hire scouts to find the next big motorsports race car driver through VSR official championship leagues. Then train these new drivers, sign them on a contract, and a potential motorsports champion has been created! This is only dream if mine and will never come true

I'm glad this topic was posted. I've thought about sim versus real life racing for a long time and it's great to see everyone's point of view here. In my younger days I couldn't afford car racing so I ended up racing motorcycles in Southern California on tracks like Riverside, Laguna Seca, Ontario Motor Speedway and Willow Springs. Later I became an instructor in Keith Codes California Superbike School where I enjoyed riding on tracks like Watkins Glen and Louden New Hampshire. I got into sim racing as soon as they first appeared and I haven't stopped. I think racing is either in your blood or not - real or sim. There are many, many reason why I'm attracted to sim racing. You get to experience racing on tracks from around the world. You get to experience exotic race cars and learn all about them and get some perspective in terms of how they handle. You learn about car set up and balance. You experience learning the fast lines around new tracks. You master drafting and passing techniques. You learn how to be patient in a long race, save your car to finish strong and pass only when the opportunity presents itself. To me sim racing is at least 80% as much mentally like real racing and I feel a good sim racer would adapt very quickly to real racing given the chance. To me, an entry point for sim racers is Kart racing. Kart racing is fast and furious and believe me requires some physical conditioning too. I mean you're inches off the ground flying around in close company and subjecting yourself to real harm if you screw up. Those of you who have tried sim kart racing have an idea of what I mean. For real life racing, it is the least expensive way to get some good seat of the pants racing experience. I know of one kart racing program that travels the national circuits where you can sign up, join an endurance team for the weekend, get a set of leathers and helmet and have a lot of fun. I did one at Lime Rock. The infield kart track was so rough I was stiff and sore days later - it beat the hell out of me but I enjoyed the thrill of that endurance event.

 

[Thomas Hinss]

Really fantastic to see such a large discussion happening on this topic, great stuff guys

 

[Fernando Deutsch]

Was (Esteban) he consistently near the front of the grid in all of his sim races? If so, and if you look at his lap times in the Sauber, it proves (to me at least), that sim racing is only really helpful for practicing techniques and may help you find a racing line, if you're getting a track day on a track which has had the sim treatment. They won't necessarily make you faster in reality.

Sorry for the late response. The current project I am is killing me.

He was at the front all the time. I remember the first time I meet him it was a race with the rFactor F3 mod at Barcelona. He was faster than us for about a second and a half. I original though this guy was cheating. David Martinez (Cart, Formula Renault, close friend to Esteban) was second most of the time, but was not as impressive as Esteban. Luis Diaz (Cart, ALMS) was not very fast but he was very consistent through all the race. His driving was very very smooth, he looked like an AI car, no slides, no lock ups. He was very good on the Porsche Carrera mod.

Both Esteban and David had very nice seats and PC setups done by a friend of mine whom saled hardware sim setups, so he ensure proper setup (no deadzone, correct ratios, reduce input lag, etc.) was being used by them. We knew Luis had a crapy PC, so probably that explains some of the difference in performance.

I remember we raced the rFactor Protons at I think was Kyalami. We were helping Esteban downloading and installing the track, so he entered late to practice. In a mater of 6 laps he matched the best times and by the end of the session he was again, the fastest.

About sim racing, I think it does help at some extent on technique, but also on learn to keep concentrate and focused for some long time periods. A mind excersice or training.

Very nice thread by the way. Interesting opinions.

 

[assettonoob]

@assettonoob - Not just pedals, steering input too. I was amazed how much understeer I avoided by using a combination of slow in-fast out and smooth steering.

On a different note - I'm sorry to take the thread back to a dead conversation, but on the subject of FOV, I changed mine using an FOV calculator to a value of 24 degrees as the calculator recommended. Look at the improvement on my lap time.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=403514744

FOV matters folks!

Apologies to the OP. I think I may have helped steer this conversation far away from the point we are supposed to be discussing.

One of the other mistakes I made when I first started driving, is that I'd turn into the corner earlier than I should. This means you get a slower exit speed and a higher chance of apex to exit understeer. You want to turn in late and hit the apex, with enough speed to be on the limit with a neutral throttle when you re-apply it.

If you ever want to feel better about your driving watch this video on Youtube:

I actually feel bad that he is so bad. Poor S2000.

 

[Dan Allen]

One of the other mistakes I made when I first started driving, is that I'd turn into the corner earlier than I should. This means you get a slower exit speed and a higher chance of apex to exit understeer. You want to turn in late and hit the apex, with enough speed to be on the limit with a neutral throttle when you re-apply it.

If you ever want to feel better about your driving watch this video on Youtube:

I actually feel bad that he is so bad. Poor S2000.

Their problems:
1) Track positioning all wrong
2) Hand positioning wrong (on wheel)
3) Too fast on entry
4) Right hand is spending too long on the gear shifter.
5) He's just too fast round some of those large, sweeping bends.
6) I don't know what he was doing at 1:12, he was waaay off line!

I swear that if they only slowed down at the entries, half those problems alone could be avoided.

I could go on, but I think I could summarise it by saying I don't want to share a track with those guys. They're not even checking their mirrors properly!

Mind you, I'm not one to talk. I've never spun out myself, but I've come bloody close once or twice!

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I ALWAYS make the mistake of turning in too early, but I must admit I'm getting better now my FOV is set properly. Still got some way to go before I'm hitting my exit's properly, but I'm slowly getting there.

 

[Brendan Little]

That Guy in the S2000 is sublime! Hes the guy I picture when I get rear ended at the beginning of a sim race! Spinning on a track day I always thought was a big no no and showed that you are crap and should go home and cry. But after doing more and more you realise that spinning isnt bad, its part of pushing the car and your setup and driver level. If you spin a couple of times no biggy, as long as you learnt from it, worked out what you did wrong and how you will improve on it next lap. You also need to do a slow lap afterwards to make sure everything in the car is fine and still working properly. Like Dan said, his lines and entry speed are awful, he also had his roof down which shows me hes more interested in looking good then actually driving on the limit (unless it was the last couple of hours of the track day then I apologies, however he really should be driving better if it was!), plus a good few of them he would've been able to catch with more steering input but he just sits there and watches. I'm going to have to find the thread with the GTR driver now so you can see how not to drive on a track day. Fast car, not so fast driver.......

 

[Brendan Little]

Enjoy.....

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[assettonoob]

Enjoy.....

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It's a shame that many performance cars are owned by people just for the image, and they have no driving skill. I can't be too snobby as when I first started driving I made mistakes, but I was nowhere near those two!

 

[assettonoob]

Their problems:
1) Track positioning all wrong
2) Hand positioning wrong (on wheel)
3) Too fast on entry
4) Right hand is spending too long on the gear shifter.
5) He's just too fast round some of those large, sweeping bends.
6) I don't know what he was doing at 1:12, he was waaay off line!

I swear that if they only slowed down at the entries, half those problems alone could be avoided.

I could go on, but I think I could summarise it by saying I don't want to share a track with those guys. They're not even checking their mirrors properly!

Mind you, I'm not one to talk. I've never spun out myself, but I've come bloody close once or twice!

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I ALWAYS make the mistake of turning in too early, but I must admit I'm getting better now my FOV is set properly. Still got some way to go before I'm hitting my exit's properly, but I'm slowly getting there.

Not only does he have all the problems you described, he adds lock too fast and then floors the throttle 100% when the suspension has settled. Then when it starts to slip (you can even hear the revs rising before it lets go) he doesn't lift until it slides, then he lifts completely! Does he bother to even think about reducing the steering? No.

 

[Dan Allen]

Enjoy.....

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Hmmm, lets see. He doesn't steer properly, doesn't make full use of the track width, potentially unbalances the car, and destroys a ****ing McLaren! I swear to god if I met that guy on a track day I would smash his face in back in the paddock!

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

Not only does he have all the problems you described, he adds lock too fast and then floors the throttle 100% when the suspension has settled. Then when it starts to slip (you can even hear the revs rising before it lets go) he doesn't lift until it slides, then he lifts completely! Does he bother to even think about reducing the steering? No.

Yeah, it is so funny in most situations: "Ah the rear end is sliding! Ah countersteer is for pussys I just want to do lawn mowing". Really in most situations it looked saveable, but they rather went off track?!

 

[Georg Winter]

This is a good example how SimRacing can help you in real race car. Kerkhof already knew how to react and with that knowledge he was able to safe the car.

 

[assettonoob]

This is a good example how SimRacing can help you in real race car. Kerkhof already knew how to react and with that knowledge he was able to safe the car.

I'm not saying that wasn't a great save, but for every sim racer that's faster than the average driver in a real racing car, there's a sim racer that's slower:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p_sCrM1CcI

I think it's just luck that some sim racers are better than an average driver, and some are worse. Sim racing teaches the basics but can't teach how to feel what the car is doing. I'm sure If you took 100 regular people with no racing or track experience, a few would have some natural driving talent.

 

[Pär Öqvist]

I don´t understand did you take that example as Huutu being slow? He was still fast for a total newbie and he don´t have a driver license Fast despite having problem with the heat and nausea and time difference.

I don´t have racing in my blood at all. I got my driver license before starting simracing and never pushed the car near the limit. Simracing have improved my car control real life like crazy. I don´t see there is much of a difference more then it´s easier in real life feel the limit due to the G-forces.

If I would drive IRL like in simracing though I would not survive a track day lol.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

Why would they want to advance in real world racing? Isnt Sim racing enough as an experience? Thats why most of us still hang on to our Logitech G27s and Thrustmasters ;-) We dont want real racing.

For it's more that I have no other choice. Got a pretty severe head injury 9.5 years ago, broke my skull and got brain bleeding because of it. Was told not to race anymore.
So, then I moved over to simracing. It's the closest I can come!

And yes, it bugs me to this day that I didn't walk to school with my step-sister, instead of taking the bike "last-minute" to school, and therefor crashed heavily.

 

[Dan Allen]

Not only does he have all the problems you described, he adds lock too fast and then floors the throttle 100% when the suspension has settled. Then when it starts to slip (you can even hear the revs rising before it lets go) he doesn't lift until it slides, then he lifts completely! Does he bother to even think about reducing the steering? No.

Interesting how you say that he adds power once the suspension has settled. I've always been taught to gently/smoothly add power once the weight is over the front wheel as you're turning... Or are you talking about adding power once he comes out of the turn???

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

This is a good example how SimRacing can help you in real race car. Kerkhof already knew how to react and with that knowledge he was able to safe the car.

I missed to say: What oversteer modern cars have so much grip they dont just spin out

To be honest I think simracing is a very good preperation. If you are a good simracer you know what to expect from the car, you are able to analyze diffrent lines and one big factor for is, that you can be very critical about yourself. For example I am not the best driver in really underpowered cars in simracing and I have driven diffrent Karts (still very slow onces) in reality and I struggled the most in the once with the least amount of power in terms of pace.
Another thing is, that when you jump into a Kart for the first time your driving (at least mine) is driven by your survival instinct. I find myself taking shallow lines and not using all of the track in a Kart, but then I have a critical look at it and apply the lines I objectively know are the best and try to stop taking the "pussy-lines", which another part of my brain wants me to take.

The first time, that I drove a kart was at around 20 years and I do it maybe two to three times a year know, so I always struggle with these basic things, that maybe other people don't struggle with when they start fairly young, but my simracing experience helps me to improve myself and the mental part for me in real life is fairly easy and I actually find it a bit easier to stay fully focused compared to simracing.

 

[assettonoob]

I missed to say: What oversteer modern cars have so much grip they dont just spin out

To be honest I think simracing is a very good preperation. If you are a good simracer you know what to expect from the car, you are able to analyze diffrent lines and one big factor for is, that you can be very critical about yourself. For example I am not the best driver in really underpowered cars in simracing and I have driven diffrent Karts (still very slow onces) in reality and I struggled the most in the once with the least amount of power in terms of pace.
Another thing is, that when you jump into a Kart for the first time your driving (at least mine) is driven by your survival instinct. I find myself taking shallow lines and not using all of the track in a Kart, but then I have a critical look at it and apply the lines I objectively know are the best and try to stop taking the "pussy-lines", which another part of my brain wants me to take.

The first time, that I drove a kart was at around 20 years and I do it maybe two to three times a year know, so I always struggle with these basic things, that maybe other people don't struggle with when they start fairly young, but my simracing experience helps me to improve myself and the mental part for me in real life is fairly easy and I actually find it a bit easier to stay fully focused compared to simracing.

Karts are awful for teaching you how to drive road cars fast. There's no suspension, no momentum, no understeer, no front brake, no acceleration, etc.
I think they're only good for preparing kids and teenagers, for driving low powered single seater racing cars later.