Buying advice please - Next Level v3 Motion Platform

[MarkR]

I'm looking for some advice and thoughts of other owners or people with good knowledge of the product, please.

I always said I'd buy myself a motion simulator if I could afford one and had the room available. Well, that day may have arrived. I'm impressed by what I've seen of the Next Level v3 Motion Platform

This seems to meet all my criteria:

+ Limited space requirements, I don't have room for a huge sim rig but this seems compact enough to work.
+ Works with Oculus Rift VR, that fixed head position setting solution is impressive
+ Great support and regular updates from the developers
+ Available in the UK
+ Works with my current Thrustmaster wheel and accessories.
+ Sub £3k for the full setup, I'm not a pro racer I'm not looking for a practice simulator this is just for fun so the cost/fun balance has to be right.

So help me do the man maths! Is it worth it?

Is there another similar product I should also look at? It would need to be reasonably compact, work with VR, available in the UK without too much hassle and in the same £3-5K price range.

Is there anywhere I can try one or even better several of the systems in the UK?

 

[Furnace Inferno]

I don't understand what others are saying about mounting the NLM. There are 6 holes on the legs' base. Just drill 6 holes into something like a plywood board or whatever floor you're using then bolt the NLM (with legs attached, obviously) to the 6 holes, plop a seat on and you're done. You need to find a seat that matches the NLM's seat bolt-holes,get adapters, or drill the NLM's seat-holes bigger or whatever but that's for the seat; the actual NLM unit itself simply bolts into 6 holes wherever you want and you're done.

They are taking the legs off when mounting to 80/20 especially as most of us are using feet or casters which raise the whole frame off the floor. You’d need a very thick sheet of steel or something under the seat box to take ones body weight plus movement without flex and it would be too high up if mounted on top with more extrusion the bridge the gaps.

Where those legs usually bolt is where everyone is mounting the V3 to their frames.

 

[anton_Chez]

I decided on the V3 over the SimX Stage IV despite missing the traction loss module. Money wasn't a big factor, as I had it, but still chose the V3 anyway. Something just made me feel that traction loss wasn't going to be a massive deal. Main reason being is that no one else is offering it in a package solution, unless you go D.I.Y. At least I couldn't find any.

With where I have my rig now, it wouldn't fit, either. I am already tight for room and although it's comfortable, it is snug. I am happy with how everything fits and I never ever feel cramped, but anything moving laterally outside of the range of motion I already have would make things tighter. I also chose the V3 at a time when I never intended to move (or rather, build) downstairs and my rig was in the front most room of my house. Opposite the master bedroom and directly to the right of my front door. I pictured the way each chassis would look there, and definitely chose the better looking rig. It's even better now with the 80/20 but it never looked like an eyesore, or a piece of machinery sitting in the study for everyone to experience.

I also think that the Stage IV is designed and software is produced around the rear traction loss. The V3 is designed without such a module, and the software attempts to recreate that feeling. Combining both would probably send counter intuitive signals to the driver, combining movement on different planes without being designed for such a setup would probably not offer a significant benefit to the driving experience. When I close my eyes while on a straight (when not in VR) I can feel the motion in the pit of my stomach. It feels like I am in a moving object. Steering even slightly left or right, like rocking the steering wheel, gives that funny feeling like getting up too fast and feeling light headed. So if that happens, it's not hard to imagine that with clever programming the 2DOF platform can indeed give that subtle cue of rear stepping out. Especially when you combine the other factors critical to receiving information (vision and feedback through steering wheel).

Those that know me from these forums will know that if RTL is that big of a deal I will eventually end up with such a module. But, as I said before, if a $20K D-Box can live without a dedicated lateral traction loss module, so can I.

 

[RobertR1]

My view of traction loss is around the concern on accuracy. It depends the angle you're coming from. If you're a sim only person looking to add more immersion, then I don't see a concern. The additional sensations will just add to the overall great experience that is sim racing.

However if you're a track/racing person looking at sim to gain more seat time and keeping things sharp, then I would have strong concerns about traction loss and the limitations. Having been lucky to drive fast cars around tracks, rear traction loss isn't always a gradual thing. Snap/sudden or large degree oversteer due to high cornering speeds, sudden loss of grip due to track debris, over crests and off camber turns go well beyond the angle of movement or the speed at which this rotation occurs that I've seen from any of the traction loss products on the market aimed at consumers.

So when you're buying traction loss, you're buying it for a few types of rear traction loss scenarios and certainly not any that create a butt clinch effect in real life driving.

I'd still argue that well done feedback in the pedals is the next big jump so you can feel the throttle loading up and the engine spin up through the pedal. For brakes, ABS pulsing (road car vs race car abs) along with brake lock up and threshold braking.

 

[Spinelli]

Well, Robert, I don't think rear traction loss DOF is for the scenarios you describe. Once the rear is clearly going around, we just need good eyes, hands, and physics (game's physics engine) to save a car. What I think traction loss dof is more for is that sensation in real life of feeling the rear going light before actually needing any sort of correction. Once the car's rear clearly breaks away, you don't even need a great wheel or hardly even FFB - as long as the game has natural oversteer physics (which I believe most sims are lacking) - let alone traction loss dof. It's that faint sensation right as you're on the edge of the limit without passing the edge where I feel traction loss dof may be handy.

 

[anton_Chez]

What Spinelli says makes sense. But I feel that I already have that with the hardware I have now. The degree and speed of the traction loss may never be achieved via consumer products, at least not currently. If you're just talking about the cues and the moment of inertia where the grip levels are lost, or at least are changing, then those with the V3 (or even the Stage IV) would attest to feeling at least minor sensations in that regard.

 

[Spinelli]

I'm going to message NLM support and see if there's a way they can scale movements with g-force and maybe even give us 3 sliders for braking, accel, lateral (left/right) g-force. I love the front pitching down during braking but it doesn't gradually un-pitch as you slowly let off the brake, instead, it's closer to an on/off behavior where the NLM sort of says "as soon as this happens, undo the pitch back to centre." It's more of an all or nothing "trigger." Having the pitch be in-tune with braking g's and slowly feeling the pitch straightening-out as you're slowly lifting off the brake as you start blending turn-in would probably feel real good and make the NLM feel more in-tune with the physics.

 

[anton_Chez]

But the signals the platform outputs does come from telemetry. Where else would it come from? I have never felt it feel unrealistic to me. The exact feeling you want happens when coming out of turns so I can't see how braking and accelerating would be any different? Do you have the Pitch and Surge sliders at a weird value? I leave everything at 1.00 and have never felt the need to do anything apart from restrict the throw that the platform outputs.

 

[Mr Latte]

I looked at adding RTL to it with the SimX DIY kit and people have done it but it’s far more complicated than just attaching the pieces. You need to lift the whole rig up to have the rear capable of swinging and then also account for the fact it increases the foot print significantly, in the case of the P1 probably twice as wide at the rear of not a bit more. You need a pivot on the front of the rig which you need to build something custom, you need heavy duty ball bearings on the rear which the frame slides against the SimX base. Then you have the additional layer of software you have to get running in unison not so hard with Sim Commander but truly custom ones are a lot more effort.

It’s a lot of DIY, custom parts and frankly if people wanted to to spend all that time doing it they wouldn’t be buying an all-in-one ready to go system.

The SimX seat mover is a little different though as it also operates on a pivot and then the pistons onto the upper back for movement so the seat is fixed to the pivot and then it moves around that.

Well other options than SimX are avaIlable and doesn't look like this needs a massive amount of space. Not sure if this can be easily applied to a VR3 but would of thought with some creativity it could be added to an 8020 build and at a cost-effective price.

While doubtful, perhaps some users in the future may consider, pondering a potential upgrade option or attempting to creatively take their 2dof motion a bit further. Just sharing out of curiosity really and nothing more.

Other and Software Install

 

[Furnace Inferno]

Well other options than SimX are avaIlable and doesn't look like this needs a massive amount of space. Not sure if this can be easily applied to a VR3 but would of thought with some creativity it could be added to an 8020 build and at a cost-effective price.

While doubtful, perhaps some users in the future may consider, pondering a potential upgrade option or attempting to creatively take their 2dof motion a bit further. Just sharing out of curiosity really and nothing more.

Other and Software Install

The reason I specially looked at the SimX one is because it can support the weight of an 80/20 build, the frame alone of the P1 with everything attached must weigh close to 80kg. Those frames on the ProSimu are very lightweight and and flimsy in comparison allowing them to use less powerful and cheaper actuators.

I have also seen it with only 80/20, same principles but more DIY with the base it rotates on being 80/20 rather than the SimX base. Here we go: http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/22255-8020-rig-with-2dof-motion-and-traction-loss/

As you can see not a simple process and just from the very fact the whole frame has to swing/left right it automatically takes up more room, I have mine up close to the wall on one side which just wouldn’t be possible if the rear kicked out.

 

[Mr Latte]

The reason I specially looked at the SimX one is because it can support the weight of an 80/20 build, the frame alone of the P1 with everything attached must weigh close to 80kg. Those frames on the ProSimu are very lightweight and and flimsy in comparison allowing them to use less powerful and cheaper actuators.

I have also seen it with only 80/20, same principles but more DIY with the base it rotates on being 80/20 rather than the SimX base. Here we go: http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/22255-8020-rig-with-2dof-motion-and-traction-loss/

As you can see not a simple process and just from the very fact the whole frame has to swing/left right it automatically takes up more room, I have mine up close to the wall on one side which just wouldn’t be possible if the rear kicked out.

I saw the video below, which demonstrates a heavy rig being used.
Although I have not looked to see the technical data regards max weight for the actuators available.

To say its not a simple process is right but I don't think its a major challenge for a custom 8020 build. That does not necessarily mean using a P1 and modifying such. As for space needed, you can clearly in links I provided see the footprint is not that excessive for left-right at all.

How do you know the frames on ProSimu are lightweight and flimsy in comparison?
It looks like a very good motion option or to modify for a specialist build. The biggest drawback is the noise I'd say. Yet VR3 users seem to take the stance that their 2dof is better than ProSimu 3 dof and playing down the need to add a 3rd dof.

VR3 is good, I like it but I personally would want to incorporate, over time a rig to have motion yet include traction loss.

I would enjoy to read someone giving an account of just how worth or enjoyable having "traction loss" even used on its own is for immersion.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

I saw the video below, which demonstrates a heavy rig being used.
Although I have not looked to see the technical data regards max weight for the actuators available.

To say its not a simple process is right but I don't think its a major challenge for a custom 8020 build. That does not necessarily mean using a P1 and modifying such. As for space needed, you can clearly in links I provided see the footprint is not that excessive for left-right at all.

How do you know the frames on ProSimu are lightweight and flimsy in comparison?
It looks like a very good motion option or to modify for a specialist build. The biggest drawback is the noise I'd say. Yet VR3 users seem to take the stance that their 2dof is better than ProSimu 3 dof and playing down the need to add a 3rd dof.

VR3 is good, I like it but I personally would want to incorporate, over time a rig to have motion yet include traction loss.

I would enjoy to read someone giving an account of just how worth or enjoyable having "traction loss" even used on its own is for immersion.

Nobody said it was better as they haven’t directly compared, what they are saying is having tried the V3’s they don’t feel like a dedicated traction loss actuator is something they are missing because it somehow gives the effect, owners of D-Box systems say the same and it’s not like they are lacking on funds to have someone add it if they wanted!

Just as an FYI there are two different actuators ProSimu use, ones which can handle only 40kg that are cheap and aren’t really strong enough for heavy rigs and 200kg ones which are pushing into D-Box territory price wise that are used on their high end rigs. Looking at the video the guy is using the cheaper ones which seem to be struggling to keep up and even ProSimu themselves wouldn’t recommend such a thing. Although I guess it depends how much weight is on the front as the traction loss module doesn’t need to lift anything just swing so it wouldn’t be affected, the R-Seat is really heavy though even more than the 80/20 rigs.

I know it’s lightweight just by looking at it for one, it’s not very substantial and also because it was part of their design process to keep costs down.

If it was cheap and easy to get high quality actuators we’d all be running D-Box level equipment but even their own custom ones designed to compete with D-Box but be cheaper, sure are nearly half the price but that’s still €6500!

What will be interesting is the base they were meant to be building to mount any rig with 4 actuators and tractionlosd but not sure what happened to that.

 

[Mr Latte]

Nobody said it was better as they haven’t directly compared, what they are saying is having tried the V3’s they don’t feel like a dedicated traction loss actuator is something they are missing because it somehow gives the effect, owners of D-Box systems say the same and it’s not like they are lacking on funds to have someone add it if they wanted!

Just as an FYI there are two different actuators ProSimu use, ones which can handle only 40kg that are cheap and aren’t really strong enough for heavy rigs and 200kg ones which are pushing into D-Box territory price wise that are used on their high end rigs. Looking at the video the guy is using the cheaper ones which seem to be struggling to keep up and even ProSimu themselves wouldn’t recommend such a thing. Although I guess it depends how much weight is on the front as the traction loss module doesn’t need to lift anything just swing so it wouldn’t be affected, the R-Seat is really heavy though even more than the 80/20 rigs.

I know it’s lightweight just by looking at it for one, it’s not very substantial and also because it was part of their design process to keep costs down.

If it was cheap and easy to get high-quality actuators we’d all be running D-Box level equipment but even their own custom ones designed to compete with D-Box but be cheaper, sure are nearly half the price but that’s still €6500!

What will be interesting is the base they were meant to be building to mount any rig with 4 actuators and traction loss but not sure what happened to that.

I have not read any reports of ProSimu owners showing concern over the metal construction or issues of poor quality. However, we don't need to really discuss this is as the primary interest or general query I had was how or if its possible to add TL motion to a 2dof unit like the VR3.

SimXperience uses an SCN5 for its traction loss actuator, I assume its similar spec? Just me but I don't see a problem with the 3dof kit Prosimu offer to potentially be used/modded for a users custom 8020 build or one with a VR3. Yes attenton to the weight being added is important regards the speed and lifespan of the actuator being used. However many custom build users also have gone with SCN5

Ive not yet seen a VR3 based rig, upgraded to offer 3dof via a custom build and really as it has no current official upgrade path to say what a Prosimu option has. I would have an interest in following such to help discover from a users opinion what the additional actuator brings to the immersion over the standard 2dof experience.

I liked this video regards what a TL motion brings. It also shows that a great deal of additional space is not needed. I have to say it would be something I would consider adding just even on my static build focused mainly for tactile immersion.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

I have not read any reports of ProSimu owners showing concern over the metal construction or issues of poor quality. However, we don't need to really discuss this is as the primary interest or general query I had was how or if its possible to add TL motion to a 2dof unit like the VR3.

SimXperience uses an SCN5 for its traction loss actuator, I assume its similar spec? Just me but I don't see a problem with the 3dof kit Prosimu offer to potentially be used/modded for a users custom 8020 build or one with a VR3. Yes attenton to the weight being added is important regards the speed and lifespan of the actuator being used. However many custom build users also have gone with SCN5

Ive not yet seen a VR3 based rig, upgraded to offer 3dof via a custom build and really as it has no current official upgrade path to say what a Prosimu option has. I would have an interest in following such to help discover from a users opinion what the additional actuator brings to the immersion over the standard 2dof experience.

I never said poor quality, I said it’s not as solid as an 80/20, neither is the more expensive R-Seat R1, the single arm design with small wheel deck from simple physics can’t be. Just watch videos with DD wheels attached and the whole thing shakes a lot, same test on a P1 or Heusinkveld rig, no movement at all.

As to the actuators they are actually SCN6, the 5 really can’t lift much at all but remember SimX only use both to move the seat not to lift the rig at all.

If we are just talking about RTL then maybe you could, the question is how would you mount it to the RTL base, dimensions etc.

As I say, they had been talking about a base which you could drop nearly any rig onto instead of theirs and there was talk of pre-orders but I could never find it on the site. It was an option for full 5DOF like the T5 but only €7000 I believe they said.

The chirping noise is still an issue with them though which neither the V3 or D-Box have issues with.

 

[HoiHman]

As a matter of fact i was thinking about adding traction loss to my NLMv3, but it would mean going the uncharted DIY route.

Hardest part is choosing the motor to use for the TL. It has to be compact, quiet and fast

SCN5 acculators for tractionloss is a not an option because of the high noise levels it produces.
Also the fact that my rig is not a permanent one, complicates things.

Than there's also the money question

It's also about making choices, theres a lot of new stuff expected in the upcomming year and as much as i would like to, i can't buy it all.

So adding rear tractionloss is on wishlist, but so is a lot of other stuff:

- GS-5
- New Oculus
- GTX 1180
- Rear tractionloss

 

[Mr Latte]

I know it’s lightweight just by looking at it for one, it’s not very substantial and also because it was part of their design process to keep costs down.

I never said poor quality, I said it’s not as solid as an 80/20, neither is the more expensive R-Seat R1, the single arm design with small wheel deck from simple physics can’t be. Just watch videos with DD wheels attached and the whole thing shakes a lot, same test on a P1 or Heusinkveld rig, no movement at all.

Apologies but how I read comments regarding "lightweight" or not being "substantial" or "keep costs down" particularly when used together. These for me point to the person describing something they do not see as adequate or much good for the purpose but instead of being subpar.

Indeed you did not say "poor quality". I did not say you did neither but I used the expression to relate to the way you described the products build and owners that may have it not seemingly sharing the same views or opinion. Your welcome to show examples of owners that have the hardware, expressing dissatisfaction or complaining about the points you highlighted.

If we are just talking about RTL then maybe you could, the question is how would you mount it to the RTL base, dimensions etc.

I don't see it as a major challenge, if using the Prosimu kit and some creativity.
Lots of people have adopted RTL to d.i.y rigs or platforms.

The chirping noise is still an issue with them though which neither the V3 or D-Box have issues with.

Yes they do appear to be annoying but its possible some soundproofing materials are usable without adding too much additional heat. However, for some people they may use rigs in their own rooms away from others. Some with options like below and it not therefore really detract the users own experience they have or the immersion:

• Noisey Blower Fans
• Headphones / VR
• Powerful speakers or subwoofers
  
  

 

[Mr Latte]

I dont know if the Prosimu RTL actuator is an SCN6, I assume its an SCN5 as these ( I assumed from reading) can operate at twice the speed and are not for heavier loads that the RTL may not need.

Yet it seems clear what the below uses unless they never updated the website as its always been an SCN5. I remember because in 2011 / 2012 I nearly ordered the 2dof and RTL (mainly put off with import fees) and that only changed with me buying instead into the big BK LFE and Clarke TST tactile when "Simvibe" was announced. IIRC it was Henk even brought "Simvibe" to my attention at GTP and such I never ordered the motion.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

I dont know if the Prosimu RTL actuator is an SCN6, I assume its an SCN5 as these can operate at twice the speed and are not for heavier loads that the RTL may not need.

Yet it seems clear what the below uses unless they never updated the website as its always been an SCN5.

Yes SimX use SCN5 on their cheaper models but ProSimu use SCN6 just for clarification, me saying cheap was in relation to the actuators.

As to complaints not many people complain about the R-Seat either but it’s all about what you are comparing to. Everyone loved the G27 but then after upgrading to better wheels realised how much better other/newer products are and how much they were missing.

 

[anton_Chez]

This is me, when using my previous rig. OK when I had it, but I couldn't use it again now that I have 80/20. It's all relative, in the end. Your experience will determine what you feel is 'best'. Just like my CSW before the OSW. You can go on and on.

 

[GordoJones88]

Can someone give me a bolt hole template for the 6 bolt holes on the legs base that mounts to the rig?

How far apart is the front hole from the back hole on one of the legs?

How wide apart are the holes from one of the legs to the holes in the other leg?

 

[Mascot]

Can someone give me a bolt hole template for the 6 bolt holes on the legs base?

How far apart is the front hole from the back hole on one of the legs?

How wide apart are the holes from one of the legs to the holes in the other leg?

What product are you talking about? If it's the NLv3 then: