Buri's Rig

[Michal Burisin]

Hi,

last month I bought my first wheel Thrustmaster T-GT and got hooked up in no time , then I figured I would need a rig, so I started with Next Level Racing GTUltimate V2. Despite good reviews, I haven’t liked it, the seat had a lot of flex and weird shape for me, so I returned it. Ever since I’m reading through the forums figuring out how to improve my setup, which is desk and wooden chair right now .

I have just ordered rseat N1 and HPP 3P-PRX-SE pedals as T-GT pedals were lacking, now I have some time meanwhile the orders arrives, so I’m figuring what to do next and tactile seems to be next best upgrade, so driving doesn’t feel so “dead”, although even without tactile this is most fun I had on PC ever .

As for the plans, I will be keeping T-GT steering wheel for now. Currently I’m building DYI handbrake, I have some parts ordered, so when I have some progress, I will put some photos up, maybe with little step by step tutorial if it will be interesting for anyone (I’m total beginner so I will be figuring everything out as I go). It will be simple load cell handbrake.

So far I ordered Handbrake, Load Cell, Controller Board, I hope it all fits together. I will solve mechanical part when I get my hands on the handbrake. I was thinking about hydraulics, but it seems lot more complicated and expensive. Especially when for example HE are using also just load cells in their top of the line pedals, so I figured it must be good enough for DYI handbrake as well .

For now I’m running laptop with CORE I7 and Geforce 1060 6GB and 24’’ monitor. This will be my next goal after tactile, but I will probably wait until summer or later when new graphic cards arrive and TVs with HDMI 2.1 with VRR (variable refresh rate) and possibly VR, this will be long wait, but I will at least have some time to gather some finances .

Then I would like to get DD wheel and in more distant future I would like to get seat mover, probably Next Level Racing Motion Platform V3 as it integrates with rseat N1 quite nicely. My inspiration is Diablo2112 rig, it looks absolutely fantastic!

I will be eternally grateful for any help / advice anyone can give. Many thanks!

 

[Mr Latte]

Congratulations on getting the build up and running.
You put in a tremendous amount of time and effort into this and have something rather unique. Not only that but you placed quite a bit of faith in some of the ideas suggested, spending quite a large sum of money in the process.

Its good to hear that the isolation is not only maintaining the vibes but with the larger units with bumps etc helping to increase the felt rebound sensation. I know what you mean by it giving a sense of motion.

Really though, I think you deserve to give yourself more credit as much of the build was formed around your own decisions and how it would all come together. People will always have different ideas or possible solutions but this rig you have should be more than capable of producing some rather amazing tactile. It is certainly one of the more dedicated builds I have seen being built and with an interest on ensuring it looks great too.

Look forward to more images to do it justice.

We can continue the journey, from the tactile perspective as now you need to consider what effects should be used on which channels. Much of this will be your preference. I think once you have this then you can make better judgment into how you should mix possibly SSW with Simvibe or Audio.

I still am finishing some of the files for SSW, but keen to get your feedback on several of the effects with the level of tactile hardware you now have installed.

Have been busy with extra work and the rare warm/good weather we have been getting.

 

[Michal Burisin]

@Mr Latte thanks

I will decide what effects to place on what units in SSW once I start trying out how individual effects feel, when they are activated etc. Once you have some individual effects ready, let me know and I will start testing it one by one.

So far, I have done just some preliminary SimVibe setup to get me going.

If anyone would be interested to see what I have come up with can take a look here:

http://photos.burisin.cz/simvibe/medium-sensitivity.IADF
http://photos.burisin.cz/simvibe/high-sensitivity.IADF

However I think it's so specific to tactile units, installation, isolation, that it might not be much useful to anyone. Maybe just to take a look at the general approach I took with creating effects - @Ceolmor might be iterested.

Front Suspension Bumps 1 - 5 to 7 hz, designed to pick up biggest bumps - slow down bumps, or these on Spa:

Front Suspension Bumps 2 - 8 to 15 hz - smooth response on medium to big bumps - grass, curbs
Front Suspension Bumps 3 - 15 to 30 hz - more sensitive and detailed small bumps
Front Suspension Bumps 4 - 30 to 35 hz - most sensitive final layer with detailing

Front Suspension Bumps Surges 1 - 20 to 40 hz - designed to pick up small to medium details

Front Suspension Bumps Surges 2 - 6 to 6 hz - road texture as white noise, almost constantly active, giving small constant smooth feedback even on smoothest parts of circuits in order to prevent feedback stopping altogether which feels just wrong.

I'm quite happy with the outcome so far as first usable setup. What bothers me most is that in PC2, SimVibe doesn't pick up effects for all 3 Rear Suspension Effects on left rear wheel, I hope, they will fix it. I'm getting great L / R separation in seat, but this messes it up. I have to run it without that left wheel, because if I added just Road Bumps, it would affect front wheels as well.

Heres my TST 239 setup:

This gives me even distribution of feedback across the range. I have set the engine vibration to 70 hz max to give strongest feeling, TSTs drop of in performance after this frequency rapidly. I wanted to have real world engine frequency tied to frequency of TST, but it's not possible and I gave that up and went for that 70 - 80 hz max depending on car / shift - I try to set it up I shift point at 70 hz.

TSTs response is really unbalanced and crazy strong around 60 - 65 hz, that's why I had to limit it at that range drastically. If anyone can share theirs setup for TST239, it would be great to see if we came to same conclusion / solution.

Here's my BK Concert setup:

I will need to play with it little more once I will try SSW with higher frequencies for g-force effects.

 

[aliolemon]

You have a great rig, and thanks for sharing your Simvibe Settings.
And don´t forget to share the more detailed pics of your rig

 

[Michal Burisin]

@Mr Latte So I have initial testing of some SSW effects after me.

I was trying some files I had from you couple months back, so they are pretty outdated, so maybe some things improved a lot, I don't know without new files.

I'm testing with Project Cars 2 as my main sim for circuits, as I can't force myself into Assetto Corsa.

Regarding bumps, I cannot get any sensible feedback so far. The feedback feels totally disconnected and with latency. When I run over bump on one side (big curb on street road), so it's big discernable bump and it feels like it has latency of like 200 - 300 ms. The feedback is not always there and it's not very sharp and quite variable and feels always same and generic to me as it uses same wav effect every time. Maybe some new effect for bumps can improve things or it is SSW and Project Cars 2 specific, I will try later also in Assetto Corsa for testing purposes.

Anyway this was just big bump testing. Regular road feels also wrong, I'm using open wheel car KTM X-Bow R to see what the suspension is doing exactly and it's also disconnected.

With SimVibe settings I have posted in previous post, the tactile response is tightly matched to the suspension and what it's doing. When I see big bump coming, I'm expecting what it will do and it works as expected same every time. I cannot get this repeatability with SSW so far. Sometimes it picks it up, sometimes it doesn't. I will try again, but I'm very happy with SimVibe for road effects, so I don't tweak my settings very much anymore. What's great is that it works for many types of cars without need for big adjustments / different profiles. At least I feel it this way, but maybe I get better feel for this over time and then will want to further improve effects.

Then I was playing with lateral g-forces and I must say that you are right With this higher end setup and good L/R separation, I'm getting nice feeling of sustained g-forces through corners, especially in seat, I really love it! When you wrote about it, I couldn't imagine it could work so well. I was testing simple sinus tones so far, but I think it will be good, also with your improved effects.

I love it so much so I decided I will go for 2 software mixing, I have done some initial testing and done mixing through MS8000 splitter / mixer and it works great, so I decided I will get another one, which is exactly enough for 6 channel mixing + dual role for seat and pedals and all slots will be used.

It would cost a lot in cables and soundcard as well, but as I have invested in this so much already, I will go for it to get the best results I can.

Also I need it for breaking g-force in pedals. SimVibe without this effect feels just bland.

So far it looks I will use SimVibe for road effects and engine, and maybe shift - I used couple of layers and I love it now. There is bug in SimVibe, if you set shift effect in extension mode on one channel, it's used on all channels, so when I set it before in seat and pedals, the 2 effects collided and sometimes it played with normal gain, sometime with double gain so it felt messed up, now when I understood it needs to be set up only on one extensions output, it's great.

I will use SSW for g-forces, maybe shift if I can get better one and wheel slip. However I don't know if I will have space in frequency range to accommodate for both - g-forces and wheel slip. I have 5 - 35 Hz range for road effects. So far tested 40 Hz for lateral g-forces, which felt reasonably good and BK Concerts handle this frequency great. I'm not sure if wheel slip at 50 hz or higher will be good and whether it would be possible to discern between these two effects. As you use dual role setup even for chassis, you have more space in frequencies in there. Also I have 70 hz for maximum engine frequency, so it's getting harder to cram more effects in there and still maintain separation between them.

Due to this, I still will be building g-seat even when g-force through SSW feels good, I still think I can get better results with g-seat or maybe combine both in the end and with this, I possibly will have more space in frequencies for wheel slip. Also I already got the aluminium seat and already have planned for this project a lot, so I'm looking forward to this challenge but I will probably postpone it couple of months as I think I will be very happy with SimVibe + SSW combination for now

Also now I feel BK Advances quite lacking, so I will probably want to replace them with 2 more BK Concerts, really love these units.

I have feedback from friend with BK LFE + DSP3000 and he says, the amp in dual mono has problems driving LFE. He tried it in bridge mode and says it feels much more powerful, and cleaner then in dual mono, where DSP3000 has 880 W max in 4 Ohm per channel, he said it feels not enough for 1500W of LFE and he had to run it on high gain which caused some distortion. He doesn't have these problems in bridge mode. This is what he said, but he is beginning in tactile, I think you said 3000 DSP is more than enough for 2 LFEs, so he might be doing something wrong. I cannot say, as I didn't have LFE in my hands.

From his feedback, what I like about the Concerts is that, they are 2 Ohm and I can drive them with DSP3000 quite easily on low gain.

 

[Mr Latte]

I do all my testing with SSW files with AC so I cant confirm any issues with latency in other sims if its an SSW issue with that sim. The files themselves should not have any latency. All testing I do is primarily done with GT3 based cars as my focus was towards the upcoming ACC release.

We may need to have similar iNuke DSP settings for primary tests as with your EQ clearly its altering things a lot with certain frequencies. So its best for tests to have all EQ bypassed but we can confirm settings on amps for future tests with new files I will send.

Later you then can apply personal preferences if you wish...

A good thing to do for testing some EQ changes....
If looking at your +15db for 90Hz you can go in and set a Crossover to only operate between 80-100Hz to cover that single frequency. Then feel what that +15dB is offering for 90Hz region over not having it applied. You may find that even with that amount of extra dB because it is a higher frequency with limited energy in its bandwidth, it is not bringing much extra (depends on the unit how it outputs the frequency)

I am for testing some new ideas with a Dayton Puc and Dayton Exciter unit when I get my seat section built to see if we can bring more sensation to the above 80Hz region.

DSP3000
With two BK LFE I have amps front knobs between 1-2 pm and can get ample energy with mine. Just increase the Crossover output to +7 or higher and it should deliver ample energy

Not sure if this is his issue, people do not always read the manual to understand how to balance the input/output and then keep an eye on meters to ensure the signal is not clipping. A lot of users crank the front dials only which just increases the input trim level of the source not using the extra settings in the Crossover.

The amps wattage ratings and Buttkickers own ratings do not seem to add up as proper RMS Also, the BK units operate well below the 400w min they list for them.

Concerts are 2ohm so have 1/2 the resistance, therefore, twice the wattage going to them.
I will learn how I balance my own Concert to the LFE units when I get my own build underway. Will do direct comparison with each unit.

Ive had several changes to most effects in the last 2 months so I expect the newest files for quite a few to be different.

Do continue to experiment and see what you come up with..Its nice to see someone interested in tweaking or adding some creativity but I would first focus on having good and well working effects with each solution before trying to combine sources.

I will buy the new ipad soon to look into the options it brings with "Audio Tactile" manipulation and low bass enhancement. I feel I can take "engines" much further. This next month for me should see me in a better situation with hopefully having a new seat section up and running for proper testing.

 

[Mr Latte]

Behringer MS8000 does not have mixing controls.
It is typically a Splitter/Duplicator

Show me what way you are applying the two "input sources" to have a "combined output".

This is different, with individual balance for mixing the two sources...

I want to compare how I can use the ART Split Mix4 compared to the above mixer. I have both and the MS8000 already purchased. The main benefit is 8way LED that could show levels or potential clipping of the 2 sources.

You may find when comparing various sims that Simvibe or SSW may operate better with some effects or like you said yes Simvibe can have issues and they go for months and not get fixed.Best to report any to each individual involved via the appropriate forums.

 

[Hiro Abe]

Hmm... I don't frequent PC2 but I don't remember any issues with SSW when driving. I'll give it another go sometime this weekend.

I'll second the 3000DSP's ability to drive an LFE quite nicely. My 3000 is set up dual mono with one channel feeding my LFE mounted under my seat. Similar to @Mr Latte, I have my volume dial set around 1:00. I have found, any higher and it is too hot for the LFE and I get serious piston pang and clipping.

 

[Mr Latte]

We need to nail down some effects that work brill on the big LFE/CONCERT
So we should group as many owners for final tests for some of the latest files for high energy sensations with G Forces in mind.

It can take me hours to create all the variants for one single effect.
So I want to have tested "Masters" that work well or people can truly enjoy.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Behringer MS8000 does not have mixing controls.
It is typically a Splitter/Duplicator

Show me what way you are applying the two "input sources" to have a "combined output".

This is different, with individual balance for mixing the two sources...

I want to compare how I can use the ART Split Mix4 compared to the above mixer. I have both and the MS8000 already purchased. The main benefit is 8way LED that could show levels or potential clipping of the 2 sources.

You may find when comparing various sims that Simvibe or SSW may operate better with some effects or like you said yes Simvibe can have issues and they go for months and not get fixed.Best to report any to each individual involved via the appropriate forums.

Here is the manual for MS8000.

I use this connection scheme for mixing:

I intend to do balancing / setup via soundcard individual volume / effects settings, so I didn't go for mixer with adjustment knob.

So it's probably not mixer, but it could probably be called "combiner" or something

 

[Michal Burisin]

I do all my testing with SSW files with AC so I cant confirm any issues with latency in other sims if its an SSW issue with that sim. The files themselves should not have any latency. All testing I do is primarily done with GT3 based cars as my focus was towards the upcoming ACC release.

We may need to have similar iNuke DSP settings for primary tests as with your EQ clearly its altering things a lot with certain frequencies. So its best for tests to have all EQ bypassed but we can confirm settings on amps for future tests with new files I will send.

Later you then can apply personal preferences if you wish...

A good thing to do for testing some EQ changes....
If looking at your +15db for 90Hz you can go in and set a Crossover to only operate between 80-100Hz to cover that single frequency. Then feel what that +15dB is offering for 90Hz region over not having it applied. You may find that even with that amount of extra dB because it is a higher frequency with limited energy in its bandwidth, it is not bringing much extra (depends on the unit how it outputs the frequency)

OK, we can synchronize our amps settings or I can use defaults.

That 15dB at 90 hz is not actually used at 90 hz, I'm using so far maximum of 50 hz with BK concerts, so there it's +5dB. I'm still experimenting with higher frequencies, I think these will be mostly reserved for SSW effects.

DSP3000
With two BK LFE I have amps front knobs between 1-2 pm and can get ample energy with mine. Just increase the Crossover output to +7 or higher and it should deliver ample energy

Not sure if this is his issue, people do not always read the manual to understand how to balance the input/output and then keep an eye on meters to ensure the signal is not clipping. A lot of users crank the front dials only which just increases the input trim level of the source not using the extra settings in the Crossover.

The amps wattage ratings and Buttkickers own ratings do not seem to add up as proper RMS Also, the BK units operate well below the 400w min they list for them.

Concerts are 2ohm so have 1/2 the resistance, therefore, twice the wattage going to them.
I will learn how I balance my own Concert to the LFE units when I get my own build underway. Will do direct comparison with each unit.

He said they played ok on dual mono, but he was getting into piston pang pretty soon, he said, that probably the piston pang is due to distortion / not enough power and he said, that he is getting more power with less piston pang in bridged mode, but I can't try this, so it will be up to you if you'd like to try it.

He has soundcard maxed, crossover pretty high and knobs pretty high in dual mono, which seems little strange.

Do continue to experiment and see what you come up with..Its nice to see someone interested in tweaking or adding some creativity but I would first focus on having good and well working effects with each solution before trying to combine sources.

I will buy the new ipad soon to look into the options it brings with "Audio Tactile" manipulation and low bass enhancement. I feel I can take "engines" much further. This next month for me should see me in a better situation with hopefully having a new seat section up and running for proper testing.

Yes, I'm testing individually both SSW and SimVibe and also individually each effect and what it brings to the mix. I'll have the dual software setup probably in 14 days as I'm waiting for MS8000 and cables to get here. I will try probably SoundBlaster Omni, I hope it will work with x-fi without confilct.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Hmm... I don't frequent PC2 but I don't remember any issues with SSW when driving. I'll give it another go sometime this weekend.

I'll second the 3000DSP's ability to drive an LFE quite nicely. My 3000 is set up dual mono with one channel feeding my LFE mounted under my seat. Similar to @Mr Latte, I have my volume dial set around 1:00. I have found, any higher and it is too hot for the LFE and I get serious piston pang and clipping.

I was testing it on Azure Coast track with KTM X-Bow R to see suspension working along with tactile response. At the beginning of the track, there is big curb on the right. There I can clearly see delay. Also the feedback is not very consistent. I noticed some settings for latency in ASIO, I will try to experiment with that later.

Maybe you can try bridge mode to see for yourself if it can bring more power without pang.

 

[Michal Burisin]

You may find when comparing various sims that Simvibe or SSW may operate better with some effects or like you said yes Simvibe can have issues and they go for months and not get fixed.Best to report any to each individual involved via the appropriate forums.

I will wait for SimVibe authors to respond for another week and then I will try forum, no feedback so far.

Unfortunately I'm running into more issues in SimVibe, in Dirt Rally the chassis mode front and rear effects don't work at all and I have to use mono bumps. Also some controls don't work in different games. For example with mono vertical surges, the sensitivity works in very limited range. When set to 0%, it operates like when set to 95%. So in Dirt Rally, I'm basically creating road effects from multiple layers of mono bumps and one mono surges effect, this kind of sucks.

Also the filters don't work at all. I wanted to use speed based volume to get better control over bumps, but it doesn't work on any effects I have tried.

I think the problem with software support is problematic due to small user base. I think most people interested in tactile software has probably already bought the major programs and now there's not much new users to keep the software development profitable, so the ongoing support is stripped to bare minimum, it's just my speculation, but I think it might be due to this problem. I would gladly pay some yearly subscription to keep the software development alive, but I guess most people would have hard time paying something extra, but they probably don't realize that development costs a lot, so it might be dead end before potential market and subsequently competition grows.

 

[Martin68]

Well the guy lacking power at 3000dsp to one LFE will be me.
Hope i can join this OT discussion when you already discuss it here
So as Buri says, at dual mono it was fine, but really lacking power. So i bridged it (1+,2+ - hope i did it right but still it seems weak to me. I probably have something wrong with my settings as i stealed it from Buri´s Concerts.. would you guys mind checking it for me..?
https://ibb.co/iHXYWd
https://ibb.co/fgiJxJ
https://ibb.co/frk94y
https://ibb.co/dZRSrd
With this setting and soundcard to 100% i have to push inuke main knob to like 90-95% and it is nice but far from "earthquake".
The thing is i also have BKA1000-4 here so i switched it for inuke and WOW - THAT THING HAS SOME POWER against 3000DSP. Exact same rig, LFE, PC - everything, just switched the amps and i can not put BKA1000 to more then 30% main knob because my rig would break apart...

So i think i have some settings at dsp incorrect only...

 

[Mr Latte]

Well the guy lacking power at 3000dsp to one LFE will be me.
Hope i can join this OT discussion when you already discuss it here
So as Buri says, at dual mono it was fine, but really lacking power. So i bridged it (1+,2+ - hope i did it right but still it seems weak to me. I probably have something wrong with my settings as i stealed it from Buri´s Concerts.. would you guys mind checking it for me..?
https://ibb.co/iHXYWd
https://ibb.co/fgiJxJ
https://ibb.co/frk94y
https://ibb.co/dZRSrd
With this setting and soundcard to 100% i have to push inuke main knob to like 90-95% and it is nice but far from "earthquake".
The thing is i also have BKA1000-4 here so i switched it for inuke and WOW - THAT THING HAS SOME POWER against 3000DSP. Exact same rig, LFE, PC - everything, just switched the amps and i can not put BKA1000 to more then 30% main knob because my rig would break apart...

So i think i have some settings at dsp incorrect only...

Hi,

If you are using the BK LFE it is a 4ohm unit. THE BK Concert is a 2ohm unit.
Set the amp to 4ohm, see settings below.

Also if you drop the Hold / Release value to 20/40 and not 200/400, this can help with delay issues. Lastly if the unit is inverted (installed upsidedown) set to 180 degrees

Save as a Preset within the amps memory
Note it will stay at 4ohm even though this goes blank



See how you get on with these settings.
Run the amp with knobs at 1-2pm and then increase the Crossover dB Output if you need too. If you are then still lacking power its possible you have a faulty amp.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Here is Dirt Rally profile for SimVibe

@Ceolmor had some trouble with Dirt Rally not picking up big bumps from jumps etc., check it out and see if it works for you. It's the same philosophy as I had for Project Cars 2 profile. It's multiple layers of bumps with increasing sensitivity and frequency, works really great on my rig. This profile works nicely for road and for gravel, I just turn volume on soundcard down when on rough terrain. SimVibe doesn't support wheels separation in Dirt Rally, however the result is surprisingly good even with this limitation. Or maybe it's not limitation - I imagine with 4 separate wheels on rough terrain, it would be mess anyway with all the bumps blending. With mono, the bumps are more pronounced as all units are working in unison. For circuit games, the separation is necessary, as you want to feel the curbs on one side or the other, but for rally it might be better to run it mono.

Dirt Rally is the best experience I had so far! Monte Carlo or Pikes Peaks with narrow curvy tarmac roads is just awesome. Just so immense fun to throw the car around.

Really looking forward to VR and mixing SimVibe with SSW

 

[Hiro Abe]

He said they played ok on dual mono, but he was getting into piston pang pretty soon

So I played with SSW and PC2 quite a bit over the weekend. Though I didn't feel like I was experiencing the issues Michal relayed, I definitely was having issues with piston pang! Egads I hate that noise. Makes my teeth clench! I keep envisioning my LFE's piston rocketing through the casing every time it happens. I have no issues with iRacing, R3E and AC but PC2... whoa! I ended up dialing down to about 25% Gain on Road Bumps and that's with @Mr Latte custom waveform set to -10db. Dialing down the gain that much also decreased the effects on other bumps. I'm not in front of my PC but I think I have the threshold for Road Bumps set around 40. I have Road Surface effects going to my 2 ADXs that are under my heels. I think I just haven't hit the sweet spot between the threshold and gain settings. Otherwise, I find SSW is working quite nicely with PC2. If I set the gain on Bumps to about 40%, the rumble I get when going over kerbs is sweet but at the expense of getting horrible piston pang when hitting bigger bumps. A bit frustrating. I even tried lowering the peak limiter on my 3000DSP to 700 but seemed to have minor effect. I'm curious what it is about PC2 that creates such a different response with the LFE.

My setup with SSW:

• 3000DSP
  • dual mono
  • feeds LFE and TST209
  • both transducers mounted under seat
  • no gain on signal feed
  • volume for LFE at 1:00
  • LFE gets SSW Road Bumps
  • TST - mostly unused since not crazy about SSW's engine vibe, still searching for good marriage with effect
• 1000DSP
  • dual mono
  • feeds two ADXs - l/r isolated config
  • both transducers mounted under heel plate
  • no gain on signal feed
  • SSW Road Surface and Wheelslip effects (working nicely with PC2)

 

[Hiro Abe]

I was testing it on Azure Coast track with KTM X-Bow R to see suspension working along with tactile response. At the beginning of the track, there is big curb on the right. There I can clearly see delay. Also the feedback is not very consistent. I noticed some settings for latency in ASIO, I will try to experiment with that later.

Maybe you can try bridge mode to see for yourself if it can bring more power without pang.

Sorry. Totally forgot to try this out. Will attempt at some point this week.

 

[Hiro Abe]

Did some more driving in PC2 and think I'm close to finding a good setting in SSW.

Road Bumps

• gain 24% (will probably go lower since I did get a couple piston pangs at Spa)
• threshold 45

Road Surface

• gain 65%
• threshold 0

Bumpy Terrain/Kerbs

• gain 48%

I'm reporting on the above from memory but the numbers should be pretty close. What I found last night is that the PC specific setting of Bumpy Terrain/Kerbs is the key. Those are getting sent to my LFE and because they are low impact, I can really bump up the gain without causing piston pang. Now when I go over kerbs I'm getting awesome feedback from my LFE. I have to say, PC2 is feeling quite nice!

 

[Mr Latte]

Simvibe Multilayers
As you create multiple layers for a single effect, when that "effect" is called by the telemetry then all the Hz (tones generated) based on the settings you have (with the multi-layers) go to the "Output Mixer" for the channel and will combine into one collection of frequencies.

Of course you cant see this without monitoring the audio. To say this helps with such n such bumps and this layer for another type of bump is just your assumption/imagination. Once again (like the amplifier volume settings) you go your own path seeking to discover something rather than come more willing to discuss or learn with a joint effort what others already have learned or discovered. People have had 6 years with Simvibe, you will not likely find something magical in the slider settings values or adding a few layers that then makes it amazing working much better than it normally does. Hz used are key if taking onto account the tactile used yes but to apply different Hz in a layer to then say this layer is for "x" bumps and another layer is for "z" bumps isn't accurate in my view.

The telemetry values determine for each layer, based on the settings each layer has, which then generate the tones they do or how reactive they are based on sensitivity etc.

The more vertical based bumps you showed (sausage curbs etc) will likely have more reaction/response with "vertical" based effects than "suspension". Imola is a good exmaple of these curbs. Vertical surges may be more active, than some effects but this may vary with the sim.


DIversion
Been thinking the last few days and its clear with this build and your own approach is very different. I am not interested in pursuing mixing SSW with Simvibe and it goes against my own testing and research I have already done.

You have more interest it seems in going your own path and doing your own thing. I dont see much focus or desire to get properly stuck into joint testing or development regards .wav creation or trusting in my own research in mixing SSW with Audio tactile. It's not that I am some expert in this,with all the right answers. Much is still to be learned and people do not have to do as I say but clearly, we differ on things.

I should focus more on my own build and do with it what I want, than continue to share what has excited me or I see as the best way to go about tactile immersion and then potentially see others follow.

It's like everybody is on a different page here, doing their own thing rather than simply picking a sim, track, car and focusing on giving shared input with multiple tests or files. To collect feedback on how each feels or operates on the hardware and installation various people have. To get people to spend much time with testing effects seems a chore, or they expect/want test files to be like final files all working stupendously.

MIxed Emotions
I do not think from what I looked at that 2 telemetry based tactile solutions is the best way forward. At this time, yes their may be some preferences to having "Simvibe Engines" and these possibly on their own EM channels operating with SSW in a configuration but I do not see improvements in control or the operation of the tactile by just mixing two telemetry sources and in the most basic way (soundcard slider controls) that you propose to do.

This means both SSW and Simvibe need ideal settings and its more hassle, more controls and quite frankly not in my view going to bring the best immersion. It bringing more potential problems than really finding a solution to just having excellent effects.

A Different Mix
Audio Tactile is a very different thing to telemetry based tactile. Be this bringing surface detail that has no telemetry output, additional high-frequency sensation with curbs, or engine characteristics from its audio/transmission, gears or exhaust.

It brings "stuff" that telemetry does not to the immersion but it also has some issues or drawbacks but these are far outweighed by what it can bring.

With the past experience and time, I spent testing or monitoring both. I can see and know what its pros/cons are. I have highlighted what I will do via ipad and specialist software. Something nobody is doing but from research, I see potential in what it offers to control the "Audio tactile". and then mix this with "telemetry based tactile" with sufficient hardware and the quality or controls they bring for all testing or general operation scenarios.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Simvibe Multilayers
As you create multiple layers for a single effect, when that "effect" is called by the telemetry then all the Hz (tones generated) based on the settings you have (with the multi-layers) go to the "Output Mixer" for the channel and will combine into one collection of frequencies.

Of course you cant see this without monitoring the audio. To say this helps with such n such bumps and this layer for another type of bump is just your assumption/imagination. Once again (like the amplifier volume settings) you go your own path seeking to discover something rather than come more willing to discuss or learn with a joint effort what others already have learned or discovered. People have had 6 years with Simvibe, you will not likely find something magical in the slider settings values or adding a few layers that then makes it amazing working much better than it normally does. Hz used are key if taking onto account the tactile used yes but to apply different Hz in a layer to then say this layer is for "x" bumps and another layer is for "z" bumps isn't accurate in my view.

The telemetry values determine for each layer, based on the settings each layer has, which then generate the tones they do or how reactive they are based on sensitivity etc.

The more vertical based bumps you showed (sausage curbs etc) will likely have more reaction/response with "vertical" based effects than "suspension". Imola is a good exmaple of these curbs. Vertical surges may be more active, than some effects but this may vary with the sim.

I'm not sure what you mean by "will combine into one collection of frequencies". I assumed it's normal that it takes all the effects and through addition / substraction it will deliver combined signal from all the effects to the output from soundcard. How it should work correctly?

Anyway I don't have any monitoring equipment, so I'm using just my feeling. With SimVibe and bumps I start with biggest bumps - lowest sensitivity, lowest frequency output, highest gain. These handle really biggest bumps I can find on track. Then I go to medium bumps, low sensitivity, very low to low frequency output, medium gain. Then I go for small bumps, with high sensitivity, medium frequency output and small gain.

This might involve more layers than these 3 steps I outlined, but also something in between.

Then I do road surface - I use around 5 hz, constant feedback and low gain. It feels like the car is not completely static when moving, small fluid movements are always ongoing. And then some more noise in higher frequencies on low gain.

I add it layer by layer - testing single effect, and then test it how it all blends with other effects before adding another layer. I don't know how SimVibe mixes it and how it outputs it, but I feel it's blending all the bumps together and works really good for me. Maybe it's just my assumptions / imagination, I don't really care, it just works for me

DIversion
Been thinking the last few days and its clear with this build and your own approach is very different. I am not interested in pursuing mixing SSW with Simvibe and it goes against my own testing and research I have already done.

You have more interest it seems in going your own path and doing your own thing. I dont see much focus or desire to get properly stuck into joint testing or development regards .wav creation or trusting in my own research in mixing SSW with Audio tactile.

I don't see where this is coming from. I have stated multiple times, I'm willing to put in time for testing SSW and wav files.

I don't really care what solution I will use in the end, I'm not a fan of either solution, I see flaws in both of them so I want to get best from SimVibe and SSW and combine it together. If I find, that I can get everything I want from SSW, I will gladly stop using SimVibe as I it is hassle to run 3 soundcards for tactile. I told you, that I'm open to everything. I just recently finished the build and I'm starting with testing (still working on the rig), I was looking forward to test SSW with your new files, but I don't have them. I have couple of your files / effects from couple of months back, but I didn't see it worthwile to start some serious tests with them, as from your feedback, it seems you are closing to finish the effects you have been working on.

Just let me know how you imagine joint testing and I will be happy to put the time in. If you specify some test environment (sim, car, car setup, amp setup etc.), I will gladly follow it. If you don't have any special requirements for testing, I will try it best way I can do by myself.

On one side, you are saying people are not trying new things with tactile and now you are saying it's not worthwhile to work together when I have some other ideas. Maybe these are completely idiotic ideas , I won't know until I try them myself. You have already tried something, but I have to see for myself. I guess you are writing this regarding with my mixing SimVibe with SSW and also my plans for building G-Seat.

I already told you, that g-forces in SimVibe feels nice, but I don't see any harm with me trying to build G-Seat and then see what's better, in the end, I don't care what will be better (I think it will be combination of both), but I won't find out unless I try.

Same thing with mixing the audio. I just finished the first more permanent build of the rig and I'm just starting to try it out. I definitely plan to try to mix the audio and see for myself how it works.

I should focus more on my own build and do with it what I want, than continue to share what has excited me or I see as the best way to go about tactile immersion and then potentially see others follow.

If you want to cooperate or share your work is up to you, I'm just saying I'm all for it. Let me know how you imagine we could work together.

I'm open for testing, feedback, my own file modifying and research around sound theory etc.

I don't see myself getting advanced monitoring hardware or building new files from scratch, as I don't think I can do anything better than you without investing couple of years of work

It's like everybody is on a different page here, doing their own thing rather than simply picking a sim, track, car and focusing on giving shared input with multiple tests or files. To collect feedback on how each feels or operates on the hardware and installation various people have. To get people to spend much time with testing effects seems a chore, or they expect/want test files to be like final files all working stupendously.

I don't see where you get this impression. I don't have the files, if I had, I would already be testing SSW with you recommended AC and GT3 cars or other environment settings you might have to get best feedback from testers.

MIxed Emotions
I do not think from what I looked at that 2 telemetry based tactile solutions is the best way forward. At this time, yes their may be some preferences to having "Simvibe Engines" and these possibly on their own EM channels operating with SSW in a configuration but I do not see improvements in control or the operation of the tactile by just mixing two telemetry sources and in the most basic way (soundcard slider controls) that you propose to do.

This means both SSW and Simvibe need ideal settings and its more hassle, more controls and quite frankly not in my view going to bring the best immersion. It bringing more potential problems than really finding a solution to just having excellent effects.

I don't see much difference between mixing the audio via knob on the mixer and in windows sound control panel besides It's much more hassle to go into the control panel than turn the knob, if there is more difference, let me know.

My plan is not to mess with the settings on 3 mixers when going from car to car, sim to sim, or track to track, as it's just messy to turn more knobs. I want to have the settings dialed in configs of SSW (files) and SimVibe profiles and soundcard volume control, that's all.

It's enough SSW doesn't have profile for sensitivity, gain effect settings etc., so you have to tweak 10 effects every time you change the car... If I imagine, I would additionally need to tweak another 3 mixer knobs, it's just no go for me, this is where I drew the line.

I have done first testing of mixing SimVibe and SSW (so far I have cables for front wheels, still waiting for MS8000 + rest of the cables) and it's working exactly as I imagined.

For front wheels, I have picked up Longitudal Decceleration, Wheel Slip, Lateral Acceleration and Game Specific bumps for Project Cars 2 - this picks up kerbs, grass, rough roads, which telemetry doesn't pick up so well. Now this mix feels really great, getting best from both software without problems that for example @Hiro Abe mentioned above with regular bumps in SSW and piston pang.

Now I just cant wait for lateral acceleration on seat

Maybe this mix was not way for you, but it works for me so far - I'm working with what I have. I wasn't able to get as good road effects from SSW compared to SimVibe so far - I was trying some bumps, which I got from you couple of months back, but so far without success, but I'm still keeping my hopes up. I still have to dig in into SSW testing properly, so maybe I have something wrong in setup.

A Different Mix
Audio Tactile is a very different thing to telemetry based tactile. Be this bringing surface detail that has no telemetry output, additional high-frequency sensation with curbs, or engine characteristics from its audio/transmission, gears or exhaust.

It brings "stuff" that telemetry does not to the immersion but it also has some issues or drawbacks but these are far outweighed by what it can bring.

With the past experience and time, I spent testing or monitoring both. I can see and know what its pros/cons are. I have highlighted what I will do via ipad and specialist software. Something nobody is doing but from research, I see potential in what it offers to control the "Audio tactile". and then mix this with "telemetry based tactile" with sufficient hardware and the quality or controls they bring for all testing or general operation scenarios.

I will definitely want to try out audio mixing when I get to it.

However I don't see myself investing more money into tactile right now, as I don't have even proper display or PC, I'm running games on 1060 notebook right now...

So if I test it, it will be simple mix with possible software equalizer in Windows than some dedicated specialist hardware / software.