Buri's Rig

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by Michal Burisin, Jan 18, 2018.

  1. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    Hi,

    last month I bought my first wheel Thrustmaster T-GT and got hooked up in no time :), then I figured I would need a rig, so I started with Next Level Racing GTUltimate V2. Despite good reviews, I haven’t liked it, the seat had a lot of flex and weird shape for me, so I returned it. Ever since I’m reading through the forums figuring out how to improve my setup, which is desk and wooden chair right now :).

    I have just ordered rseat N1 and HPP 3P-PRX-SE pedals as T-GT pedals were lacking, now I have some time meanwhile the orders arrives, so I’m figuring what to do next and tactile seems to be next best upgrade, so driving doesn’t feel so “dead”, although even without tactile this is most fun I had on PC ever :).

    As for the plans, I will be keeping T-GT steering wheel for now. Currently I’m building DYI handbrake, I have some parts ordered, so when I have some progress, I will put some photos up, maybe with little step by step tutorial if it will be interesting for anyone (I’m total beginner so I will be figuring everything out as I go). It will be simple load cell handbrake.

    So far I ordered Handbrake, Load Cell, Controller Board, I hope it all fits together. I will solve mechanical part when I get my hands on the handbrake. I was thinking about hydraulics, but it seems lot more complicated and expensive. Especially when for example HE are using also just load cells in their top of the line pedals, so I figured it must be good enough for DYI handbrake as well :).

    For now I’m running laptop with CORE I7 and Geforce 1060 6GB and 24’’ monitor. This will be my next goal after tactile, but I will probably wait until summer or later when new graphic cards arrive and TVs with HDMI 2.1 with VRR (variable refresh rate) and possibly VR, this will be long wait, but I will at least have some time to gather some finances :).

    Then I would like to get DD wheel and in more distant future I would like to get seat mover, probably Next Level Racing Motion Platform V3 as it integrates with rseat N1 quite nicely. My inspiration is Diablo2112 rig, it looks absolutely fantastic!

    I will be eternally grateful for any help / advice anyone can give. Many thanks!
     
  2. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    A. Tactile

    I was reading forums quite a bit and I would have some specific questions as I have no experience so far and I would like to get things right as much as possible on the first time, experimenting will be surely necessary but I would like to avoid basic mistakes.

    Goals

    a) I would like to start with basics, so 2-4 basshakers

    b) I live in apartment building in third floor, it is built from concrete panels, I need it to be quiet and not disturbing for the neighbours.

    c) In future, tactile will be probably mixed with seat mover, so I don’t probably need extremely strong tactile, which goes in hand with low or if possible no noise / vibration moving to other apartments.

    Questions

    1) I read that it’s good practice to isolate parts of rig where tactile is felt from basic rig construction so that the vibration doesn’t get spread and mixed all over the rig. When I will be mounting the rseat N1 rig together, should I put rubber washers wherever possible to help with this?

    I have thought of 2 ways.

    Legend:

    Black – Bolt

    Blue – Metal washer

    Green – Rubber washer

    Orange – Metal parts of frame which I’m screwing together

    Purple – Nut

    a) Washer between metal
    [​IMG]
    b) Metal to metal with rubber washers outside
    Tactile_2.png
    [​IMG]
    c) Metal to metal no rubber washers

    Do you think the rubber washers are good idea? The rig is shipped and designed for just metal to metal assembly with no rubber washers, but the rubber washers seems like a good idea to me. I don’t know if they will provide any vibration absorption if it is tightened really hard together as it should be or they will basically behave like metal when squashed.

    I had in mind separating seat, pedals platform, wheel platform and shifter platform from the rig basic construction.

    Rseat_separation_01.png [​IMG]


    2) I would like to start with basic setup and then maybe expand in time, I would like to have tactile in seat, in pedals, in wheel and shifter mount.

    3) For initial stage, I would like to have 2 – 4 shakers.

    Here is my initial idea of their placement.
    [​IMG]

    Rseat_shakers_01.png

    a) Seat – for seat, I’m thinking about the back of the seat. As I’m planning motion for future, there will be no place directly underneath the seat. For motion it will probably take me 1 – 2 years to get there. Should I mount seat shaker in back of the seat as in image or placement under the seat is much better for now when I have space for it?

    Do you have any idea how to attach it to the seat? Do you think, that it has some aluminium frame like this. If so, then would be best to cut hole in plastic bucket and weld or glue some platform for bass shaker directly to this aluminium seat frame?

    Seat_construction.jpg
    [​IMG]

    If not, I have seen some solution with industry strength Velcro with glue to the seat.

    Velcro.png
    [​IMG]

    Which way would you go? Or you have another idea altogether?

    b) Pedals – I’m getting HPP 3P-PRX-SE pedals, I was thinking about mounting brake and clutch inverted and throttle F1 style, does this make sense to you? I think it would be good that you can brake by pushing with you whole foot instead of just pivoting it. Pivoting makes sense to me for throttle pedal. Won’t this configuration impede heel / toe throttle blipping?

    In order to install it like this, I would have to make construction for inverted pedal mounting, I have made example in image above. I was thinking about mounting the shaker on top of this box for pedals. What do you think?

    c) Is having tactile for wheel good idea? I think, I haven’t seen such installation, but it makes sense to me, I would like to be able to feel the revs of the engine in my hands. If mounted under wheel platform, would it be problem? Won’t shaker and electromotor of the wheel and controller board get interference from each other? In future, I would like to change T-GT for DD drive wheel with much stronger electromotor.

    I was thinking about mounting the shaker underneath the wheel as shown in image. If it would get in the way to the legs, I would move it more to the back of the wheel platform.

    d) Shifter mount – I was thinking about mounting it to the bottom of the plate, I think it is basically only option.

    4) Amplifier – MrLatte is recommending iNuke DSP series amplifiers, so I thought I would go with NU3000. What do you think? I would start with one amplifier, so only 2 channels for now.

    5) Shakers – As these are all in the center, I think all of them would get multiple effects mixed. For me, I think I would like to have good feeling of the revs of the engine. Feeling texture of the road, bumps, crashes is not so important right now.

    I also need the shakers to be quiet as possible, as I’m in third floor of apparment building built from concrete panels. I would need some good isolation from the ground and even then, I think I will have to keep the volume quite down. I have no experience in how much vibration / noise will it produce, but I guess big hits are out of question for me or am I wrong?

    Would be Buttkicker Mini LFEs be good option for me? Mostly for engine vibrations and then some road texture, smaller bumps, gear shifts etc. or there are some other options? I’m from Europe, so my choices are little bit limited.

    6) Connection – If I get NU3000, would it be possible to connect 4 Buttkicker Mini LFEs to this amp? The butkickers are at 4 Ohm 250 W max and the amp should handle 2x 880 W / 4 Ohm, or when connected 2 shakers to one channel (in series?) the output of 2x 440 W / 8 Ohm applies? As I said, I would probably won’t run them at maximum power / volume. If so, I was thinking connecting all these to 2 channels (2 shakers per channel), the effects would be same in all shakers, but for this layout of the speakers I think it deoesn’t have to be a bad thing.

    If it would not be possible, I would start with 2 shakers – seat and pedals.

    7) For now I’m running laptop, so I don’t have integrated sound card. I could get USB sound card. I have however read it is not recommended for SimVibe.

    In another thread MrLatte recommends also Simshaker – Wheels, which should support USB soundcards. Which way to go?

    Also does this software supports in some way all games or only those that share telemetry? Sometimes I like to drive for example Forza Horizon 3 and it probably doesn’t share telemetry. Otherwise I play mostly Dirt Rally, PC2, Asseto Corsa which I think is supported with no problem.

    8) For future I was thinking about this layout of additional shakers for stereo feeling of bumps etc. Does it make sense? Would it work? Maybe there would be necessary some delay on those shakers as they are closer to body than wheels of the car? Does brain pick up small details like this?

    Rseat_shakers_02.png

    I’m not sure about the mounting on the seat from sides. Or would it be better on the plastic bucket from the back next to the central one? But then would be all three shakers very close together. But this is far away .

    Many thanks for any input!
     

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  3. Turvey

    Turvey

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    I got 2 minis buttkickers bout time i actually get around to setting them up myself
     
  4. asteroulis

    asteroulis
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    @Mr Latte will love the way you present your project. Well, probably pee himself from joy..

    Welcome to the forums and I hope you'll enjoy a lot in the years to come your new hobby. It really can become a thrilling experience at times. Your rig plans are ambitious and beautiful.
     
  5. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    @asteroulis Thanks! Yeah, it's an amazing hobby, I didn't see it coming, actually I havent played any computer game for approximatelly 10 years and the way it developed is just amazing. I thought I would get a wheel, maybe a wheel stand, so I won't have to mount it to the table everytime I want to race, but it completely blew my mind.
    Lot of sleepless nights now :), either racing or research around it, not just hardware stuff but also racing technique etc., just so much fun :)
     
  6. Jeremy Ford

    Jeremy Ford
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    You need to be aware using a bass shaker isn't quiet no matter how much you isolate the rig. The bass shaker is thumping around creating noise, and so are the vibrating parts of your rig sending the feedback to your body. Sure you can isolate the rig so the vibrations aren't rattling the floor. But the noise created from my bass shaker travels all around my house. As it's volume controlled you can turn it down, but it's never silent. If it's silent its just turned off.
     
  7. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    Do you think it is possible to run it, so that it has some benefit without having upset neighbours? :)

    I can get away with some noise, at least inside the apartment, but it shouldn't go beyond that. Any apartment building users with hands on experience around here?

    I can settle for engine rpm and some smaller bumps, it doesn't have to be big. Contingency plan would be to assign a separate room for racing / home theater / gaming and isolate this room, but I hope it wouldn't come to that :)
     
  8. Jeremy Ford

    Jeremy Ford
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    Sure you will be able to tone things down; the overall volume or particular effects to a level you can get away with at the cost of the diminishing returns of feeling the strength of the effects. I would also expect your apartment building will have superior sound proofing between the floors than my house.
     
  9. Jeremy Ford

    Jeremy Ford
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    One thing you have in favour of your plan of having multiple transducers means you don't need to run them at overly high volumes over a single transducer setup to try and get the feedback to reach all parts of the rig.
     
  10. asteroulis

    asteroulis
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    Placement and isolation is your friend. It's doable woth some thought, and trial and error.
     
  11. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    Yeah, having multiple transducers will hopefully help. Anybody has idea if I get NU3000, would it be possible to connect 4 Buttkicker Mini LFEs to this amp? The butkickers are at 4 Ohm 250 W max and the amp should handle 2x 880 W / 4 Ohm, or when connected 2 shakers to one channel (in series?) the output of 2x 440 W / 8 Ohm applies? Should it be okay when I won't run them at maximum volume?
     
  12. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Will get a read through this proper later, I have visitors this weekend from Australia.
    Vibration noise is an issue for my own rig as well. I have tested some materials and ideas and methods but it is not something I can say do "this, use these etc" and it will be all perfect.

    Plenty of materials and ways to add isolation or dampening. Search the forums as links and things shared with others at different times. However, your going to find this will take some trial and experimentation perhaps.

    We can go over materials to consider and options. A platform used to mount the rig onto is one approach but in some cases depends on the room/building and the materials how vibrations will travel. Additionally, different frequencies are affected or may vary in how they react with different materials.

    I have played about with creating a "Midnight Preset Mode" for iNuke that you load into each amp for when it is needed. This will of course drop the energy of the tactile but still allow it to be experienced or enjoyed.

    Having such a Preset made means your not constantly having to fiddle around with different amp volumes for general use and night-time use.


    More to follow
    4x BK Mini Vs 2x Advance, this you also need to consider perhaps....
    I have shared recent thoughts on this.
     
  13. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    Thanks for the input! I have never heard / felt transducers on my own, so I'm prepared to do experimentation to make it work as I go. I'll try to go with both approaches, isolate the parts of the rig, where the vibrations are felt (seat, pedals etc.) and then also whole rig from the floor.

    That midnight mode sounds great, I see, there's lot of stuff to do with DSP :)

    My idea for 4x BK Mini was to have smaller transducers as close to the body, so they wouldn't have to be set on high volume for vibrations to reach distant parts of the rig. My initial idea also with isolation was to limit vibrations travel to the main construction of the rig.

    Right now, the Buttkickers in Europe are little bit hard to come by, Mini LFEs will be available from 02.02.2018, and I can't find the Advance at all, only big LFE, but I guess, it wont' be quiet at all :) Main eshop distributor with international shipping I have found is Thomann.de, other distributors don't sell online, are only in Spanish etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  14. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    I think the biggest challenge you face with this is having adequate isolation from vibrations affecting neighbours. Attaching tactile to the frame in pretty good positions even without isolators will let you feel the energy they produce.

    The difference with an isolated section is that it is much more efficient, it can sustain or hold the energy better.

    How we install the tactile if putting enough thought into it can also then determine the path the tactile energy can or will indeed travel. What elements get the primary energy or secondary. Tactile placed in corners or sides with no isolated sections for seat/pedals then the tactile will travel freely in all directions to all connected materials. This is what we try to avoid yet you see many people do, even companies or individuals building selling cockpits.

    By taking into consideration these factors then typically we can get a better felt sensation in isolated sections. Such can then require less wattage or reduce the wasted energy from the tactile that is traveling across the main cockpit frame.

    Im not sure what the issue is with the Advance for sale in UK/Europe that prohibits its sale. Yet the Throne Thumper is available so unless this is part of the issue.

    Thomann.de also seem to be no longer selling some of the Behringer products they used to stock.

    We need to discuss things further, 4x BK Mini have their own drawbacks.
    My personal opinion, for those serious about getting the best tactile immersion then anything below the BK Advance brings quite a lot of performance limitations. This is not to say BK Mini or ADX or Reckorn etc cannot bring tactile enjoyment.

    I would say that "Quality" of the installed tactile hardware is the best path. Then if needed grow that path over time with more units, doing this, than buying typically 4 units for a Chassis Mode or front/back based stereo set.
    Some are not that impressed with the BK Mini or the £50/$50 type units as they really are limited with the low-end energy they can produce.

    You may be able to build a stylish plinth that acts as a sound/vibration base.
    Have a look at some of this companys products.
    Here
     
  15. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    Thanks for the response.

    I will try to put isolation wherever possible on the rig itself to limit vibrations travel. Second measure will be some isolation on which whole rig will be standing and if that won't be enough, then some larger isolation on walls, plinth etc. as shown on the link you recommended.

    I have found some Buttkickers Advance in Europe, but they are quite pricey :( here in ezplaystore Buttkicker Advance for 299,95 €, and they are only Spanish site so I'm not sure they ship internationally, with this price I can almost buy Fischer Amps Buttkicker LFE for €325. For Buttkickers Advance, it might be even cheaper to ship them from USA even with the tax +20% and shipping included, I would have to calculate that exactly.

    I would like to try this layout, for start only those red markers, so 4 tactile units (seat, pedals, wheel and shifter).

    Rseat_shakers_02.png


    Those 4 can be made stereo (front & back) if that is option in software.

    You would prefer Buttkickers Advance for all positions (8 transducers)? I was hoping, that as the transducers would be isolated on separate parts and quite close to the body, I wouldn't need too much power from them, so Minis might suffice.

    Also what I'm worried about is that if I go for Advance, I wouldn't be able to run them on proper volume due to noise and also I would need 2x NU DSP3000 which would be waste.

    I'm still not sure whether 4x Mini LFEs will run on single NU DSP3000, can you please confirm that, if you know?

    I'm leaning towards this option right now due to noise, 2 amplifiers necessary and costs for transducers themselves. For now I would be happy to be able to feel engine vibrations, road texture and some bumps / kerbs (it doesn't have to be strong right now). What would be difference here Minis vs Advance? I'm still open to options, I still don't know what I should expect, as I have never felt tactile before.

    If I find out, that I could push the noise / vibrations higher , then I could start upgrading and for example moving the Mini LFEs for stereo left / right (magenta circles in image) and upgrading central transducers for BK Advance or some other options.

    What could be lifetime of transducer?
     
  16. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    Or you would recommend getting just 2 transducesrs in the beggining? Seat and pedals? Advance or Big LFE as the price is not much different? I'm just worried I wouldn't be able to utilise all that power.
     
  17. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    In my experience "Quality" and delivery of the Hz with greater low-end ability brings more satisfaction than 4x lesser units and these bringing stereo directional placement (with some effects).

    • BK LFE tails off in its detail over 60Hz but you wont get a better unit for the deepest/sensations
    • BK Advance handles better over 60Hz but does not deliver just as good low end.
    • BK Mini are excellent at the price but fall quite short of what the bigger models can deliver

    • TST 239 Silver will produce much less low-end but bring improved detail and speed.

    What works very well is having a BK and a TST unit both combined to act as one unit.
    This 1/2s the activity from the combined effects a single unit has to work with.
    It also then allows us to use the BK for the lowest Hz and the TST to bring more definition and detail with midrange bass and higher bass frequencies.

    Quite a few people are going this route and its been tried and tested by several that have already installed such.

    Of course adding 2x TST in with 2x BK Advance is more expensive but it brings more performance.
    Even if you loose Stereo.

    Vibrations from the seat will travel to the gearstick no problem.
     
  18. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    I have a concern with the height of the seat uprights on this model already being quite tall.
    If more standard supports were used you could then have an isolation platform that it is bolted to separate the seat from the mainframe. An isolation platform here, could be 3-4" high.

    TST installed on the back of the seat near spinal region. BK unit installed with contact with the seat runners and seat supports. Also then connecting well with the gearstick section.

    For pedals, if going with "Dual Role" installation then it's possible to come up with a solution that places the BK on the pedal base and the TST more in contact with the pedal stems. Both units activity will combine within the pedals. This, however, can bring excellent detailing in the ball of the feet/toes yet feel the lower bass also within the heel.

    Two installed units on the same channel also lets us better determine the tactile flow for specific body regions.

    If you really wanted a Chassis Mode configuration first then I would advise 4x BK Advance, or start with 2 than 4x BK Mini.

    However, even with a 4 way BK Advance configuration, I would say 2x BK LFE and 2x TST in Dual Role would perform better regards "Quality" of immersion they deliver if installed well.

    You could ask @signman to possibly do tests on his own cockpit for his own feedback and opinions. He could compare 2x BK Advance on his pedals with his BK LFE and TST only operating on his seat.

     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  19. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    I started to look into these Buttkickers Advance :) If I will go for them I will probably ship them from USA.

    Thanks for the idea of isolating whole platform of the seat with side plates from the bottom, so the vibrations will travel also to the shifter. I don't think height would be issue, because if you add Next Level Motion Platform, it will rise also for couple of inches and it is ok. I could also lift the pedals and wheel platform by same height - also for isolation.

    upload_2018-1-24_22-17-8.png

    There is a bridge between the side plates, could this be good mounting option? I haven't ordered specific buttkicker platform for this rig, because I will go motion in the future and I couldn't use it then.

    What materials would you use to isolate it? You write 3-4 inches high. Would it be rigid enough? I will be using hydraulic pedals and I probably can't use soft materials, which could create "wobble" I'd like to avoid. Are there any options for isolation that are rigid? This requirement probably goes against isolation and vibration dampening, but there may be some options I have no idea about.

    Ideally, I'll try to go with 3x BK Advance and 3x TST 239 in 3 channels - seat, pedals and under the wheel, do you think this setup could be good? I hope transducers under the wheel wont interfere with electromotor in the steering wheel.

    The combined function of 2 transducers per channel is function of DSP or SimVibe? Now I have notebook with external soundcard, so I'm not sure if I can get it running.

    I will probably wait for the rig now, so I can check it out hands on, figure out isolation, placement ideas and then decide what to order.

    I was hoping the BK minis would be ok, as they are quite cheap :)

    3 BK minis would be around 10 000 CZK.
    3 BK advance + 3 TST239 would be around 30 000 CZK, damn those taxes.

    If I go this way, I will probably start with just 3 BK advance and take it from there.

    How loud are TST239 as they operate more in audible frequencies?

    Many thanks!
     
  20. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    I would of thought the height would be an issue if the wheel deck is not height adjustable? When you have it built visually in front of you and have the tactile then you can relate better to how/where things may fit. Perhaps worry about VR3 if/when you get it. That will bring its own requirements for installation and adding the Buttkicker

    Not sure how thick/strong that section is from the image. Buttkickers can be mounted horizontally or vertically but they perform best when vertical. To me it would make more sense to have a metal plate section between side supports but bolted to the metal runners. Then the isolation platform below this.

    Rubber dampening varies.
    TI 200 isolators are rather good and a bit more substantial than the BK IR4 sets. Although the TI 100 are also quite hard and approx 3" dia at 1" tall. These can be doubled up or combined also. You could have isolators below the metal seat runners (TI 100), a metal plate,with rubber layer, top/bottom, then 2nd bottom isolator (TI 200) and using other dampening materials. 3-4" would be required for this.

    Needs more thought needed but a secure method is possible for seat and pedals.
    If such isolation reduces the rate/amount of energy leaking by say 20%-25% then that's a benefit to what the user will feel and improved efficiency. (estimate only it could be less/more depending on what is done)


    That's a lot of money worth when including the amplifiers.....

    You won't need any units under the wheel, such can mess with the FFB you feel from the wheel.
    Most people want to keep that pure for sensing directly what the wheel provides. @signman briefly tested his DD wheel with a BK Advance and didn't like it.

    If you wanted to add more units then you'd be better to include say stereo on the seat (with individual plates/installed) and it operate with the already considered central BK & TST combo.

    With this approach, it then gives you the option how you utilise the units.
    For example, you could with SSW then have the central BK/TST units only operate with "engine and gearchange". As the engine is pretty much constant it can mask bump or other effects. So its possible in having the stereo BK Advance units L/R on the seat produce the bumps/wheelsip/acceleration/braking/lateral G-forces etc with no intrusion from the engine effects. Yet at the same time STILL produce a stong and detailed engine/gearchange with the combined central BK and TST.

    With SSW we have superb control over how/what effects are placed on each channel.
    So if you want to take things up a notch in going with 6 units and 3 amps heres an option:

    Pedals
    1x BK LFE
    1x TST 239 (Dual Role)

    Seat
    2x BK Advance (L/R Stereo)
    1x BK LFE
    1x TST 239 (Dual Role)

    Amps
    2x iNuke DSP 1000 (2x BK Advance / 2x TST)
    1x iNUke DSP 3000 (2x BK LFE)

    You also would need some hardware to duplicate the channels and the cabling.

    *This would be to a really high standard but could later be upgraded to also offer stereo in the pedals if desired.

    It's something I discovered with my own testing about 5 years ago. It only requires duplicating the channel, then we use each unit via its own crossover and DSP settings via the iNuke. I can assure you no single tactile unit can perform as well as this type of combination.

    Beyond the norm....
    For my own seat, on my next build update, it is likely to incorporate 6x tactile units. Using my preferred "Dual Role" approach for L/R and now also the SUB channel. This will be for splitting the Hz to suit each unit via crossover as well as separate "engine" and "bump/motion" based effects to specific units. From testing so far, it's what I find is producing the best-detailed immersion and with using the very best hardware in such a unique combination.

    L/R
    2x BK LFE
    2x TST 429 Platinium (Dual Role)

    Sub
    1x BK Concert
    1x TST 329 Gold (Dual Role)


    Thats the best thing to do, puzzling over it all in person for added creativity. Also seek advice or opinion from others. Several others have great tactile rigs on these forums.

    Mini are affordable, still enjoyable but they are the entry-level model. Your rig and ideas like many people appear to be of someone wanting more than average or entry level. So why settle with such for tactile, when the tactile will bring your rig alive.

    TST 239 can be controlled, remember I always recommend to have iNuke DSP. They will not make a noise any more than a TV type speaker. My own advice is decent headphones and a good headphone amp. Or if you want pretty decent speaker audio system will be louder than the TST anyways.

    Lots for you to consider, some big decisions....
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
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