BUILD LOG: Racing + Flying VR Rig

Callsign BH · Dec 31, 2020

Hello all! New sim racer here and looking to start a bit of a build log for a couple reasons:

It seems like you guys like this stuff like I do
Because I know I am going to need some guidance and input along the way

Before I get into the present and future of my build, first I'd like to briefly share a bit of background. I'm 100% new to sim racing (currently focusing on ACC only, as I love GT3 cars), but I'm not new to simming in general...

BACKGROUND

Around mid 2014 I heard about Digital Combat Simulator (DCS) and given I spent my entire adolescence wanting to be a fighter pilot (before the Navy told me the dream was dead due to me being red/green colorblind) it seemed like something that might be relevant to my interests. Boy was I right! As I assume most of you have experienced, I quickly fell down that peripheral rabbit hole. Said "rabbit hole" become more of a "black hole" that I was falling down at hyperspeed, and the rest is history. From one HOTAS to the next, I ended up becoming very enthralled with the high-end boutique peripherals. Over the ~6 years since I started on DCS, I've gone through waves of being on and off with playing - "off" times being mostly due to my career taking too much of my time and/or other personal life obligations - and I've ebbed and flowed with my level of seriousness with playing. I've joined virtual squadrons and fought in the SATAL league there, I've read military flight manuals front to back to learn more about operating the jets, etc. To this day I still retain a love and enjoyment for DCS, although I haven't played much the past year or so.

Around June of 2020, after years of thinking "I should get into sim racing" (and being told as much by some of my flight sim buddies), I started to get serious about it. Again, I fell down that rabbit hole and became determined to get a racing rig put together. The twist this time was that my wife and I were expecting our first child in July, and we had just bought a new home that was undergoing a lot of renovations...plus there was a small global pandemic going on. Not exactly optimal timing, but life rarely lines up perfectly, so I said "Screw it" and proceeded ahead anyway. With the learnings from my flight sim hardware shenanigans, I subscribed to the "Buy Once, Cry Once" philosophy from day 1 here with the racing build.

I had never sim raced before, but I own an AMG and have always loved fast cars. In 2018, I did an AMG Academy Track Day @ Leguna Seca which was incredible and gave me confidence that I would love sim racing the same as I do flight simming. That day I was told by "Nipper" (my instructor for the day) that I "was a natural", but still I never took the leap to get a racing rig put together. Now that has changed...

PRESENT DAY BUILD

At the end of July, after the baby had arrived, I started ordering the racing rig hardware and checking hourly for the out of stock items to come back into stock. Below is what I settled on for the build and I ordered as soon as the items came back into stock:

Rig: SimLab P1-X (Black)
- Add-ons: SimFeet + Seat Rails + Seat Slider + Keyboard Tray + Mouse Tray + Cup Holders
Pedals: Wave Italy WAVE FORCE MONZA - SIM PEDALS PRO
- I ordered the 2 pedal set with no clutch, as I have 0 intentions of ever racing a car that doesn't use clutch paddles
Direct Drive Base: SIMUCUBE 2 Pro
Rim: Ascher Racing F-28 Wireless
- I wanted the F-64 but ran out of patience in waiting for Martin to get this back into stock
- I might add a new rim in soon, but TBD (would be a F-64 or a Gomez rim)
Seat: Sparco Evo II QRT

The Ascher rim took the longest to come back into stock, which was painful, but by the end or end of October I finally had everything I needed. Those few months of waiting were rough. Unfortunately, the waiting didn't stop there as our new home had some undisclosed water damage/issues in the basement, which required a very costly waterproofing system to be installed. This also meant that the finishes of the basement needed to be totally ripped out as they dug the perimeter of the cement up to install all of that. While this was quite costly, it did mean that I had a clean slate to work with for remodeling my man cave...so that is exactly what I did.

The contractors were here for a month or so getting all of that done, and at this point everything is mostly finished besides some things I am going to DIY myself, and then having the painters come (which we cancelled in early December due to COVID spiking again, and we will likely have them come in the Spring once things hopefully have settled down).

Here are some photos of the build....

PROGRESS SHOTS:

FINAL PRODUCT:

I have since cleaned up all the wires with some TLC on cable management. I will get more photos of that up soon.

NEXT STEPS:

Add a pedal slider to the racing pedals
Add tactile feedback to the rig
Add my flight sim peripherals to the rig
Build button boxes for both racing and flight
Add motion

With the guidance of @Mr Latte , I've gotten a small start on adding tactile feedback to the rig. Yesterday I ordered a Behringer NX3000D + 2x ButtKicker Concerts. Configuration of the two BK-CT's is TBD, but I am likely going to add one to the seat and one to the pedals. Unfortunately, the amp is on backorder under the end of January (yay, more waiting!) but once that is here it will mark the next big progress I am able to make on the rig. Once I get this all set up, I will work on adding anywhere from 4-8 exciters onto the seat. On my old flight setup, I used a JetSeat SE from Andre, which was very nice, but I know it will pale in comparison to what I am working on for this build.

Regarding adding my flight sim equipment to the P1-X, I still have some more thinking/planning to do on this one. Since we all love photos, here are some shots of my current gear...

FLIGHT GEAR:

Rig: WheelStandPro for TM Warthog
- Add-ons: Left Side RSG module
Pedals: Slaw RX Vipers
- Add-ons: Motorcycle damper
Throttle: Custom made Throttletek F/A-18C throttle
- Add-ons: Made with Halls sensor instead of a standard pot, and I procured ~$500+ worth of custom switches for them to use in the build, these are the OTTO mil-spec switches that are used in the real jet
Stick Base: Virpil VPC T-50 base
- Add-ons: Sahaj 15cm Black extension
Grip: Thrustmaster F/A-18C Replica
- I also have my old A-10C/F-16 Warthog grip from when I had a TM Warthog HOTAS

I've got some plans to change some of this stuff up a bit as well, but one step at a time...

Regarding the button boxes, I have about $1500 worth of mil-spec switches, rotaries, and other misc stuff that I purchased when I was planning to build a 1:1 replica cockpit of a F/A-18C Hornet. These are mostly Honeywell and EATON/Cutler Hammer, and are incredibly high quality with a great tactile feel. I've also got a landing gear handle from a GR-4 Tornado fighter jet that I will need to build into one of the botton boxes as well, as well as a landing HOOK handle. My point here is that I've got a lot of the materials already on hand that I can use for a racing box, I'll just need to add a few things here or there maybe.

While I've never soldered a thing in my life, and am largely not "handy" whatsoever, I did acquire all the necessary soldering equipment before...despite never finding the time to use any of it

Hopefully that changes in 2021, but I'm not so sure given it seems that newborns take quite a bit of your free time, and I've got a lot already on my plate. Someday, though.

That is all for now....the baby needs fed again...but I hope you've enjoyed reading. I'll get the specs of my rig and VR put up sometime soon. Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts and feedback!

Happy New Year to all!

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Edit to add PC specs:

GAMING RIG:

GPU: Nvidia RTX 3090 Founders Edition
CPU: Intel i7-9700K
- Still searching daily for a AMD 5900X to come into stock and allow me 2 seconds to be able to add it to my cart before the scalpers, and which point I will just go ahead and update the mobo, RAM, AIO, etc.
Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master
AIO Cooler: Corsair H115i RGB Platinum
RAM: 32GB Corsair Vengeance Pro RGB 3200
Monitor: Dell U3415W Curved 3440x1440
VR HMD: Reverb G2

Callsign BH · Dec 2, 2021

Been very busy with work and home, so catching up now...but regarding the concerns on "OT discussion" in my log...

No issues at all for me, and it's all good learning for me. There not a ton going on here right now anyways (besides me buying and holding a bunch of stuff, per usual), so happy to have folks engage in discussion if they'd like. I just ask everyone keep it calm and cordial

Callsign BH · Dec 2, 2021

Samson SRK8 arrived yesterday, just put it together and mounted the first NX30000D.

Still waiting on confirmation of what is going on with my second NX3000D order.

Pardon the mess of cables, and everything in general. I generally try to get everything tidy but I’ve let it slip bc I have a large “man cave cleaning and organizing” to be done this weekend and next, plus with the impending install of all this tactile…I know I’ll need to totally rework all my existing tidy cable management.

This rack should allow space for 3x NX3000D's and the 1x EPQ304. I can then shove all the spare cabling up underneath the bottom amp and allow the "SAMSON" front bracket to conceal that.

My 3 X3 soundcards can sit on top, along with the t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini.

Mr Latte · Dec 2, 2021

metalnwood said:
Yes, OP can decide what he wants, I agree with that. I read this Lattes post much earlier than when I replied and it has been edited, so perhaps there isn't all the context to my reply in his current post.

Also yes, there is too much this way/that way/my way/the only way. Thats why I dont understand why the racedepartment rules have not been adapoted with this commercial prod

@metalnwood

I really wish you would drop the attitude and snide personal remarks here or elsewhere. The choice is yours but the next one puts you on my own ignore.

The OP already has pre-ordered RB springs, he already has an invite to the Discord Channel (not much in it yet tbh). I even stated to him, he will be able to try all options and determine for himself which solution is better for him.

Commercial Approach?
Let's make something clear, RaceBass will fully support the d.i.y user who wants to buy their hardware, in amps, soundcards, etc wherever they want. The primary point in it as a concept is to get people interested in applying the same tried/tested/recommended hardware.

The secondary part of this is to then offer or recommend improved installation solutions. Why, because, these are two of the biggest problems with tactile and with so many different variations people have in the hardware they use or how they install it. No company is offering advanced installation solutions for this level of tactile, so something has to be designed and made available for people to decide if they want to purchase.

You cannot develop effects that will offer reliable and a pre-determined level of performance on the many multiple combinations. This was proven even in Simvibe with people using all kinds of hardware, some installed on seats, some on corners etc. It's a total mess man.....

So as a developed concept, RB is an approach to reduce the differences in people's rigs and to then ensure better/maintained performance with (advanced effects) then developed on that hardware. The results of such have been confirmed with various racing drivers and others with track-day experiences of real cars, they love it man. Yet still I see much more potential in the effects that already are available with the new approaches I am now working on.

If you or others, have a better solution or approach then as stated before nobody is stopping you or others in sharing that. If you can't respect my own approach. The feedback already from it or in how I think of ways we can improve things for many people regards tactile, then kindly just put me on ignore or avoid discussion of such.

I like the challenge, in building effects to compete with others, as it's part of a fun/hobby aspect for me anyways. If it turns out blekenbleu or others do something amazing and deserve congratulations for helping to advance tactile then excellent and fair play to them.

metalnwood · Dec 2, 2021

I understand all of the above and you believe you have found a way to combat the issues around tactile installations as best as you think you can. There is no issue with that.

All I am pointing out is that you are selling a product now and you are expousing the values of it compared to efforts that other people are doing. That appears to be all you are doing lately. It may not be your intention but it's really just marketing for an upcoming product.

In the past it would have just been different guys talking about what they were doing and maybe not fully agreeing with each other. Now it's murky because one person is selling something and could have other motivations to look poorly at other peoples efforts while talking up their own. I think RD solved this issue by stating no commercial posts by sellers unless it was in their own commercial thread, which is stickied. There are plenty of commercial places that sell to DIY, it doesnt make them any less commercial.

Mr Latte · Dec 2, 2021

blekenbleu said:
Given SimHub limitations and @Wotever statements of intent and direction,
better tactile effects want generation by e.g. synthesizers:

.. which may be expediently driven via MIDI from SimHub telemetry signals.

metalnwood said:
I understand all of the above and you believe you have found a way to combat the issues around tactile installations as best as you think you can. There is no issue with that.

All I am pointing out is that you are selling a product now and you are expousing the values of it compared to efforts that other people are doing. That appears to be all you are doing lately. It may not be your intention but it's really just marketing for an upcoming product.

In the past it would have just been different guys talking about what they were doing and maybe not fully agreeing with each other. Now it's murky because one person is selling something and could have other motivations to look poorly at other peoples efforts while talking up their own. I think RD solved this issue by stating no commercial posts by sellers unless it was in their own commercial thread, which is stickied. There are plenty of commercial places that sell to DIY, it doesnt make them any less commercial.

Apart from my own beta testers who got spring samples, I buy stock of nothing, I am selling nothing, I ship nothing. I take orders for nothing and I have not used these forums to promote individual sales to people. All that has been done, is bring awareness of a collaboration that was forming with Simtag.

If anything, I hounded people making false claims or stating false information, as they were giving other people an impression they new something that just was not accurate at all. I even removed myself from the very tactile thread I created as I believe its time to move on and this as a concept needs its own space for those interested in it. Yes indeed RD Forums offers a solution for companies selling their products.

I have a concept, I have a brand name idea, which I shared with a company to offer solutions to people who want it. I take nothing to do with sales or orders and anyone even approaching me for such I forward onto the official channels.

Just like SFX that sold an idea, yet even with it people had to pay a fee to the designer/developer. This became the most popular thread on these forums, yet was it treated as a commerical company? RaceBass is a concept, part of that will be installation solutions or bespoke rigs as packages (Simtag) as a company may offer. People can purchase from such (not me) if they so desire.

Where did you read a statement from me that says, you had to buy something or pay a fee to gain access to a RB community area? It will be by invitation and for people who have installed the intended transducer hardware. If anything, the idea would be to offer people an option to send (me) a donation if they wanted or appreciated the work and development made to bring this as a new concept for people to embrace. Just as members here can request a donation within RD own downloads section.

Effects | Free
Discord Community | Free (via invite)
Approved Hardware Combination (highly desired for optimal experience)
Springs/Plates/Etc (highly recommended but optional)

I have stated I have no intention to charge for effects yet people here or elsewhere keep saying effects will be sold, or their will be paywalls. I hope this helps clear up some things but lets respect the OPs thread.

metalnwood · Dec 2, 2021

What you are talking about is a product you have developed that simtag will sell. They even have pricing for some of it. How does one get the racebass isolators? There is only one way, its paying for them. How do you get the profiles? They are free, with the purchase of the RB isolators from simtag. You will get an invite after doing that.

Could you make it more slippery? I mean its completely obvious

RD did close down the SFX thread for the reason you state (edit, only for a short while or said they were going to) but people were upset because they were using it to talk about what they were doing. Michael the sfx developer decided to step back from that thread and not have any input.

So you have people talking about what they are doing with it but not the developer. He could have got a commercial thread is he wanted to.

Callsign BH · Dec 2, 2021

It's my log, so while I generally stay to myself, I guess I'll add my $0.02. As usual, not directed at anyone (honestly), just general my thoughts. I also don't think these will be earth shattering or light bulb moments for anyone

Right or wrong, I look at Latte as the tactile guru and I trust "if it is good enough for him, it's more than good enough for me". Do I know this to be a fact? Absolutely not....but I don't have any know-how whatsoever on anything related to this venture. In life, I always tend to identify "this person knows what they are doing, I will mirror them until I feel educated enough on my own". Perfect example of this on sim racing/rig building is Barry @ SRG. Why do I own Wave Italy pedals? Because they were his primary set for 2+ years at the time I started sim racing and building a rig. I emailed him to confirm this was the case, he responded, and I ordered immediately. Why do I own a P1-X? Same reason. For ACC car setups, I felt in over my head and Coach Dave Academy seemed reputable so I bought their setups to help serve as a crutch to me to bridge the gap of "I know nothing" to "I know a little bit and can refine it myself". Any number of other folks could have helped me (especially here, because everyone is generally very generous with their time and willing to help), but that's what made it easiest for me.

When I joined RD (for my passion and interest in rig building and tactile), I looked at Latte as "the guy who knew best what he was doing" (as I think most did/do). He was clearly passionate and determined to get the most out of his work. I still look at it that way. He also helped me a lot early on in guidance of what to buy and why, as many did. I am happy he is able to set up a side hustle for his efforts because I can only imagine how many hours he has put in to research, effects, trial and error, etc....not to mention trial costs for failed experiments. I am sure it will take a while to turn the income statement from red to black, lots of isolators to sell!

I think if I was in more of a position to know what the hell I was doing on anything, maybe I would try my own effects, or build my own DIY isolators, or design my own mounting plate in Fusion 360 and send it out for fabrication. But I 1) lack any necessary skills for any of that, 2) don't have the time to learn, currently. I don't have the time or the skills....but I do have one thing: a strong desire to get this tactile up and running. So for me, the biggest value is that RB is the closest I can get to "one stop, out of the box high-end tactile" as I can get. Sure, I sourced all of the audio hardware myself (and many thanks to any and all that helped me with that, I appreciate it more than you know), and I will need to do the modifications to cables myself, etc....but once I do that, I can just install it with all the parts ready for me and a list of "settings" to use everywhere from the amp settings, to the amp software, to the SimHub settings....and then I can lean on other RB users to provide me with guidance on my certain stupid question, and I can continue to build knowledge of how to test the effects in A/B testing of "does this feel better than that?", to trial things in a fairly simply manner. I limit the number of unknown variables that I need to account for versus other folks giving me ideas, because I have no idea how to interpret any of it. To me, that is absolutely invaluable.

All said, I think it's great other guys are starting to/continuing to create their own effects. Once I get up and running with the "RB SOP" hardware/mounting/effects/settings and don't feel so much like a fish out of water, I'll certainly try the creative things others are coming up with. I want to see if that feels better to me or not. Hell, maybe someday I'll be one of the creative minds adding value with an "ah ha!" to Latte, or others, for things they hadn't yet achieved. Who knows?

I say all of this not thinking that anyone disagrees with any of it, but simply because maybe it helps someone....anyone...to see the value it adds for a hopeless noob like myself. The RaceBass concept likely isn't for everyone, unless they want to use it as a another layer of their own pursuit of trails. Personalities will clash, things will be read and interpreted perhaps differently than the writer intended them to be...but at the end of the day, I don't think anyone means any harm. We all have the same goal: GET THE MOST OUT OF THE TACTILE WE'VE SHELLED A LOT OF MONEY OUT FOR, and we are passionate about that, so there is bound to be some bias in all of us.

Mr Latte · Dec 2, 2021

metalnwood said:
What you are talking about is a product you have developed that simtag will sell. They even have pricing for some of it. How does one get the racebass isolators? There is only one way, its paying for them. How do you get the profiles? They are free, with the purchase of the RB isolators from simtag. You will get an invite after doing that.

Could you make it more slippery? I mean its completely obvious RD did close down the SFX thread for the reason you state (edit, only for a short while or said they were going to) but people were upset because they were using it to talk about what they were doing. Michael the sfx developer decided to step back from that thread and not have any input.

So you have people talking about what they are doing with it but not the developer. He could have got a commercial thread is he wanted to.

How do you get profiles, you would be sent a direct invite or invited by other members.

The primary request is that the user "RESPECTS" the work put into the concept, having the intended hardware in BK/TST/EXC for the full experience of the developed effects to be obtained. This way then as a community everyone should experience the same (very similar) level of immersion and lets, any shared methods in how to better understand Simhub or edit/build effects something others can also enjoy or be part of.

Fixed platform / Highly Developed Effects /
Two things no solution on the market currently offers.

Callsign BH · Dec 5, 2021

Got the TST-429 cables modified with the SpeakON connectors today, and mounted them to a board to test them out today…

After 30 minutes of panic as they had no output, I figured out the issue and got them up and running. Ran a full test and I’m getting output around 29-30hz upward.

https://imgur.com/a/Ofp7pEO

Deleted member 1449502 · Dec 5, 2021

Callsign BH said:
Got the TST-429 cables modified with the SpeakON connectors today, and mounted them to a board to test them out today…

After 30 minutes of panic as they had no output, I figured out the issue and got them up and running. Ran a full test and I’m getting output around 29-30hz upward.

https://imgur.com/a/Ofp7pEO

What are you waiting on now? You have enough to start playing with what you have?

Callsign BH · Dec 5, 2021

dMASS said:
What are you waiting on now? You have enough to start playing with what you have?

Just waiting on the mounting plate to install them under my seat. Without that, I’d have to buy something temporary or drill directly into my seat — neither of which are of interest to me.

I suppose I could make a really weird and temporary solution and just cut a plate of plywood for under the seat, and mount the LFE + CT + 429 to that; but then I have to take the seat off the rig multiple times, etc. I don’t know, I’m just weird, I hate temporary solutions and I hate doing work knowing I’m just going go need to redo it soon.

Callsign BH · Dec 8, 2021

Ordered the SRB SC2 extension today. Was planning to wait to confirm the size was right once I resituate things after installing the tactile…but I’m impatient and want to just get everything in my possession.

Extension for Simucube 2 - SimRacingBay

Simucube Extension: Length 130mm (replace original hub and adds 80mm extra lenght) Compatible with Simucube 2 systems (Sport, Pro and Ultimate) CNC machined from Automitive grade aluminium Weight 365g Included SQR Adapter – 6x70mm Installation Manual - test step 1 before purchase Review...

www.simracingbay.com

Thought it was very fairly priced before I realized the shipping cost adds 45% to the all-in price, but whatever. That’s the nature of living in the US and always buying things from the EU.

metalnwood · Dec 8, 2021

I have the SRB extension. It is good, very clean, installs easily and looks the part.

Not sure what issue you may have with the size of it, if its too long just move the uprights or SC2 mount back a little?

Callsign BH · Dec 9, 2021

metalnwood said:
I have the SRB extension. It is good, very clean, installs easily and looks the part.

Not sure what issue you may have with the size of it, if its too long just move the uprights or SC2 mount back a little?

Yup, I’ll be able to get the spacing/positioning dialed in. It’s not really a concern. That’s half the reason why I stopped waiting (along with being impatient).

Ultimately I don’t want to move the uprights back too far as I’ll have flight and racing button boxes there eventually, and in VR I want them at a reasonable “reaching distance”, but as you said there are ways to work around that.

Not worried and looking forward to receiving and installing it.

metalnwood · Dec 9, 2021

Here is what mine looks like, I put on the ascher rim the same as you to get an idea.

I think the length will work out well for you, it lets you mount button boxes behind the wheel to the side a bit and they are in a comfortable position. Both my touch screen and wall of rotaries are really easy to use, I do it in VR as well.

Callsign BH · Dec 9, 2021

That’s a great view, thanks @metalnwood. I think you’re right, that is going to be perfect for what I am looking for.

Callsign BH · Dec 12, 2021

Apparently the SRB wheel extension is out for delivery with DHL today…didn’t think DHL delivered on Sunday’s, but I’ll take it ‍

If it gets here today, I’ll install it tonight (hopefully). I’ll have to reposition the pedal tray a bit as well tonight so I can move the seat back and give everything a test, then I’ve gotta cover the rig up for a few days so I can do some sanding in the man cave.

Callsign BH · Dec 12, 2021

DHL wasn’t lying, they delivered on a Sunday. Got it installed without much issue, perfect fit.

Just need to find some time later tonight to pull the pedals back towards the seat and give it a test.

Installed it “logo down” because I hate logos in general.

Callsign BH · Dec 13, 2021

Got the pedals slid back, and I’m loving it. I’m sure I could’ve worked out the geometry of the rig better before, but the way I have the seat/wheel/pedals set up right now feels spot on. Super comfortable, and overall very easy to work with the higher forces I have set on the brake and DD.

A side benefit is that I no longer knock my knees on the front mount when snaking my way into the rig…or getting out.

As I said earlier, with shipping it was a lot more of an “investment” than I expected, but as of now…it seems well worth it.

metalnwood · Dec 13, 2021

Nice one, I forgot the benefit of knees not being so close to the wheel mount but it was def a thing!

DHL are being great in this neck of the woods.. Its like everyone else are saying 'its a pandemic, lets ignore service levels.. pay more for shipping? yeah it will take just as long as cheap shipping and that will be longer too'

My black friday virpil purchase was sent on last monday and arrived last friday from lithuania to NZ my door step. So I am pretty chuffed with DHL

Re the center or side stick. The force sensing stick is an interesting one, yeah great for the planes that it works with and I can see it working with everything else as well. Like anything it will be become second nature no matter what you are flying. I think center with extension will be better for helo's but I think the best one is the one that works best on our rigs.

I like center mount but on my rig I cant use an extension.. I like extensions.. I cant mount it to the side because its too much a compromise on the racing rig, a large part being the bucket seat , the reclined position so my elbow is constrained and I would have to have it too far forward.

I have had quite a few dedicated flight cockpits, the biggest being the a10 replica, to smaller ga and in the earliest days basic rigs for rudder,stick,throttle. Also had many racing rigs and over time I had merged them, separated them and more recently a few years ago when I got motion I merged them again. Once you go motion it would be a sin to not use it for everything..

Then come all the compromises again. To what extent do I give up some comfort and time savings so that I can do both on the same rig? I have pretty good compromise but there is no doubt that my best racing rig doesnt look the same as my best flying rig and as I built the rig for racing its more tuned to that than what I think is my ideal flying rig.

I can go from flying to racing, adding in stick/swapping pedals both in under a minute. So I can race and if I get the urge, a minute later I can be flying with proper rudders and my warthog. Thats a big thing for me because if it takes too long I wont swap them. When I do, I wont swap them again for a while. I could make the one rig perfect and have a 30 minute swap over period but I know that I would either fly for a month or race for a month because I am too lazy to do that much change often

So when I wanted the virpil collective and it was the first thing that just wasnt going to go on the rig right I decided to go back to two rigs. No motion for flying!!??! OK, I can still use my existing one if I really get the urge to have to fly and have to have motion but I dont think I will. I have been trying out tactile only with my bigger units and especially for helos they are providing that immersion so I think I will be fine. It just got to the point that there was too much stuff and the compromises would have become too large.

OK, thats a lot more than I intended to write, to get to the point that my experience is I have had it all different ways but always comes back to there will be a best compromise for your rig, and that may not be your 'ideal' way but its what works best overall for a dual purpose rig and you get used to it.

I built a new frame for my virpil stuff and I think I will be pretty happy with the no compromises approach with 2 rigs.. but I am a yoyo who knows where I will be in 3 years

As a VR only person, one advantage I really like for dedicated flying rig is that there are no button boxes/wheels/wheel mounts etc right in front of me. I have the mfd;s where they would be etc but I think it really frees up the potential for VR interaction with VR cockpits. In my racing rig I couldnt do a cold start, flick 30 switches with my hand controllers because I would always be hitting something on the rig. With the flying setup I dont have all that clutter so can work more easily with VR cockpits and I think that will be a real bonus when we get to good hand tracking thta I can push a button without being 4cm short of it becase a wheel mount is in the way

Sorry, may have gone off topic, forgot what it was by this stage!