Brawn: 2012 car ‘good basis’ for next Mercedes

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

http://www.f1zone.net/news/brawn-2012-car-good-basis-for-next-mercedes/15295/
The Mercedes was strong in the First part but they couldn't capitalize it
Also the Regulations are Pretty same for 2013 except the Platypus nose and Ban on Double DRS
How many of you think that Mercedes can be Front Runner in 2013 and also can the Mid Field catch the Front Running teams or Do the Front teams will move ahead making the Fight once again between Top teams
What was your views on this guys

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Let me see if i can find my crystal ball i know i put it somewhere...

No but seriously, no i don´t think Mercedes will be a front runner.
I think Mclaren Red Bull and Ferrari will be at the top as usual.

 

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

Let me see if i can find my crystal ball i know i put it somewhere...

No but seriously, no i don´t think Mercedes will be a front runner.
I think Mclaren Red Bull and Ferrari will be at the top as usual.

Apart from RBR,Mclaren and Ferrari which other teams Can Benefit from the same set of rules from your view

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Apart from RBR,Mclaren and Ferrari which other teams Can Benefit from the same set of rules from your view

?
All teams have the same set of rules.

 

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

I mean to say which mid field team can become threat for Top Runners according to you as we saw some Challenge from Sauber and Williams this season as they snatched Podiums in Malaysia(Sauber), Spain(Williams), Canada(Sauber), Valencia(Almost)

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I mean to say which mid field team can become threat for Top Runners according to you as we saw some Challenge from Sauber and Williams this season as they snatched Podiums in Malaysia(Sauber), Spain(Williams), Canada(Sauber), Valencia(Almost)

ok in understand what you mean now.

To tell you the truth, nobody knows. Not even the teams know.
they don´t even know how competitive their own car will be because they have nothing to measure it against.

In Australia 2013 Q3 you will know the pecking order for sure.

 

[Jax Humanhater]

Let's hope they can manager their reliability issues.

Schumacher and even Rosberg are in a car that is not fully reliable like the Ferrari.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

This is the same they said in 2011

 

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

At the start of this season the Mercedes are in a Position that posed threat to Big teams and got a Win in China with Nico , A 2nd Place in Monaco For Nico also and a 3rd Place Finish for Micheal in Valencia (After a Drama of Retirements and Accidents)
After Valencia they are not in a Posing any threat and Both cars failed to Qualify for Q2 in Hungary ( Micheal was Excellent Driver in Wet so don't consider his skills into car performance)
Ross Brawn and Nobert Haug says that Due to Tire wear issues we are not Prove our self and the Most Rear tire wear is due to the Mercedes Engine
If they had Tire wear problems they will struggle for Race pace but why they are struggling for One lap pace ??

 

[Chris Jenkins]

I think its because the torque of the Mercedes engine wheel-spins the rear tyres on the exit of corners, which will lose you time.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Then Force India and Mclaren would have similar problems

 

[ufunacaoenn]

As far as I know, you lose more time under braking then under acceleration so what if the problem is downforce; because the mechanical grip in the Mercedes is very good. (Schumi's shadow pole in Monaco talks for it self)

 

[Metalfreaky]

Quite interesting article about the Project Brawn/MGP
http://somersf1.blogspot.de/2012/08/the-trouble-at-mercedes.html

 

[Hampus Andersson]

They might bail out soon,

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/17/mercedes-benz-considering-partial-pullout-of-f1/

 

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

Yes as you see the Mercedes was thinking to go out as a Team but continue as a Engine Supplier and then the team Name may change as AMG F1 team
Honestly i guess that will change things for their Performance

 

[Chris Jenkins]

Then Force India and Mclaren would have similar problems

McLaren definitely have. Not sure about Force India. There's never much media focus on them.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

McLaren definitely have. Not sure about Force India. There's never much media focus on them.

Where was the wheelspin on Hamilton´s car at Hungary?
His car locked up like they had put glue on those rear tires, his rear grip was really the sole reason he won at Hungary.

It´s not the engine that causes them problems, it´s the best engine on the grid.
If you have excessive tire wear then you have set-up problems or to stiff suspension.

 

[Markus Neumann]

Where was the wheelspin on Hamilton´s car at Hungary?
His car locked up like they had put glue on those rear tires, his rear grip was really the sole reason he won at Hungary.

It´s not the engine that causes them problems, it´s the best engine on the grid.
If you have excessive tire wear then you have set-up problems or to stiff suspension.

Auto Motor und Sport wrote a pretty big article on this: http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/mercedes-motor-schuld-am-reifen-problem-5316057.html

The gist of it, since it's in German: The Mercedes engine is so powerful, especially in the mid torque range, that the rear tyres start to spin.

I used Google translate and then corrected the worst mistakes. Admittedly not very fun to read, but I don't have time to do it better right now.

Mercedes, McLaren and Force India have two things in common. All three suffer from problems with the durability of the rear tires. And all three teams go with a Mercedes engine. Is there a connection?
Actually, that seems impossible. With Ross Brawn, Aldo Costa, Geoff Willis, John Owen and Andrew Shovlin the Mercedes works team actually has very experienced engineers in their ranks.But since Pirelli supplies the tires, the team has struggled with the rear tires. Whenever the conditions are difficult, the engineers must sacrifice lap time, to keep the rear tires in a good mood.From the outside, sometimes there's the impression that they know not what they do.
With McLaren and Force India, there is also the concern for the rear tires. Only less than in the works team. Nevertheless, Hungary winner Lewis Hamilton urged: "Lotus, Red Bull and Ferrari can take a set of tires for longer than we have." Technical director Paddy Lowe admitted at Hockenheim: "We do not understand the tires." That can not be. Not for a team like McLaren, which can explain every little thing scientifically.
Mercedes team in the race weak
Nico Hulkenberg has been in the last two races a victim of severe degradation of the rear tires. The Force India driver had the speed for one lap, he qualified both times for the top ten, over the longer distance, he suffered from rear oversteer in the second part of the stints.
In Hungary Hulkenberg lost the duel for tenth place with Nico Rosberg. Whereas Mercedes had set the careful use of the rear tires as a priority, Force India went for a good lap time. And the race ended accordingly
Three teams, three times the same problem. And three times even with the same engine. Therefore, one has to ask the critical question of whether the engine might be to blame. How Auto Motor und Sport in its latest issue (issue 18/2012) explains, there is really a connection. But that acknowledgment had to get penetrated by the teams. The engine had been something like the sacred cow.
Mercedes power bad for tire degradation?
Not without reason. The Mercedes V8 has the most power, especially in the midrange.That's nice for one lap, but can shorten the life of the rear tires, if the performance is difficult to dose. One knows that the Pirelli tires reacts sensitive to slipping and too much slippage. If it gets too hot, the tire is beyond repair.
How well the Mercedes V8 is in the middle stages of acceleration, noticed the Sauber drivers in Hockenheim. "Especially while accelerating out of the corners we could still compete. But then came a phase, when the Force India simply pulled ahead as long as the tires were still fresh," Sergio Perez and Kamui Kobayashi reported in unison.
Thanks to more than 780 horsepower, even when shifting from second to third and from third to fourth gear to get minimal slippage, especially when the tires are older. For the pilot, this is control even at sensibelstem accelerator foot barely. These small slides add up and kill time on the tires.
Motor has great influence on tire

Ross Brawn makes a general statement on the subject, which is revealing: "The engine characteristic has a big impact on the degradation of the tires." We remember the words of warning from Rubens Barrichello last year at Williams. "The Cosworth engine is the biggest killer in our tire package, because the power used as a switch. Either there is nothing there or anything."
Norbert Haug, Mercedes racing manager does not want to deny that even the engine is suspected of causing the tire problem. "We just ask critical questions in all directions. They do not stop in front of the engine characteristics." Internal sources reveal: Mercedes has recognized the problem and is working full steam ahead on torque curves, which makes it easier to measure out the drivers performance.
A rule change after the GP Germany complicates this project, however. Red Bulls trip to the gray areas of the engine software could drop the Mercedes team still on its head. Since the defending champion drove at Hockenheim with a motor software, which reduced the torque at full throttle in the medium speed range by up to 35 percent, the FIA adopted a rule that the torque curves can't differ by more than two percent of the standard versions of the first four races.
Profiting from Mercedes McLaren mappings?

Ross Brawn sees room for debate. "The teams have different exhaust concepts. If the exhaust can leak into a Coanda slot in the side boxes, it needs a different engine characteristics than ours. Someone who changes from one system to the other, should, to a certain extent, have the opportunity to adjust the maps. "
There may be help. The standard version is based not on the team, but on the manufacturer. And that is also the reason why McLaren and Force India feel the effects less than the factory racing team. They have a Coanda exhaust tail pipes of smaller diameter, slightly less peak power and therefore more civil torque curves. But apparently there is also development is necessary for them.

What makes this story credible to me is that after Hockenheim, Schumacher said in an interview about his race performance that some very interesting decisions are being made (though he wouldn't specify) that might improve Mercedes' performance in the future. That was when RB was under scrutiny for their engine map. So it's possible that Schumacher was alluding to this because he knew the strong Merc engine is actually a weakness.

 

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

The Mercedes V8 has the most power, especially in the midrange.That's nice for one lap, but can shorten the life of the rear tires, if the performance is difficult to dose. One knows that the Pirelli tires reacts sensitive to slipping and too much slippage. If it gets too hot, the tire is beyond repair

Its time How Mclaren and Mercedes adjusts their Engine Maps to Decrease the Above stated Problem
I believe this is the Only Reason Mclaren Opts Option - Prime - Prime for Most of Times Where as Redbull, Lotus and Ferrari Opts Option - Option - Prime strategy

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I think it´s Mercedes related, not engine related.

And that is also the reason why McLaren and Force India feel the effects less than the factory racing team. They have a Coanda exhaust tail pipes of smaller diameter, slightly less peak power and therefore more civil torque curves. But apparently there is also development is necessary for them.