Braking distance - locked wheels vs. threshold braking

Yesterday someone on another forum posted these 2 videos.
It is Zonda R on both occasions, starting braking from the same speed exactly at the start/finish line.

This video shows braking with locked wheels - no ABS

This video shows threshold braking - no ABS

Apparently the guy managed to stop the car faster with locked brakes.
He wrote, that it shouldn't be like that.

What do you think about it ?
 
Yesterday the sam guy, that posted about problems about braking distances with locked wheels made another thread about grip drop off at high slip angles.
I will copy it here. Tell me what do you think about it ?


Yesterday I was testing the new BMW Z4 GT3.

I know, that optimal slip angle for FIA GT cars is momewhere between 6 and 8 degrees.
I wanted to check if it is right in this game.

Here is the little explanation of the things I am describing.
On the left you see the "setup debug" application. You can enable it in this file (\Steam\SteamApps\common\assettocorsa\system\cfg\assetto_corsa.ini) by setting this: ENABLE_DEV_APPS=1

accG (acceleration measured in G) - these are the G-forces acting on the car. From the left: lateral G (when you turn), vertical G (measuring bumps), longitudinal G (braking, accelerating).
I will be focusing on the "lateral G" (most to the left value).

slipAngle 0 and slipAngle 1 - slip angles for front wheels, "slipAngle 0" is front right wheel, "slipAngle 1" is front left wheel.
Tyres have their own optimal slip angle (measured in degrees), at which they produce the highest grip. For GT tyres it is between 6 and 8 degrees.

BMW Z4, soft slick, optimal slip angle.

In the video above I am slightly increasing steering angle.
I noticed, that when "slipAngle 0" is reaching 7 degrees, we can see maximum of 1.75G of lateral force. Which is the highest in the whole test.
Also after exceeding 7 degrees of slip angle I can feel slight reduction of FFB force.
From these 2 things I can say, that 7 defrees is the optimal value of slip angle. Ok this is good.

After I slightly exceed 7 degrees (i have 8 degrees of slip angle at this moment) of slip angle i can see, that lateral G sligthly decreased to above 1,6G and a little while later to just around 1,5G.

BMW Z4, soft slick, maximum slip angle.

In the above video I wanted to see how much lateral force ("lateral G") can these tyres produce at higher slip angles.

I once again steer more and more, producing higher and higher values of lateral G, which tops at 1,75G, when front right tyre (slipAngle 0) has 7 degrees of slip angle . So it confirms what I saw in the first test. Good.

Later I increase steering to maximum lock (see steer value equals 320). The front right tyre's slip angle (slipAngle 0) is showing now 21.5 degrees (which is over 14 degrees more than optimal value).
During that time I can see, that lateral G can reach over 1,6G at the first moment, and later it drops to around 1.4G. Remember, this is when I have my steering wheel at full lock, with tyres exceeding optimal slip angle by over 14 degrees.

By comparing these 2 results, we can see, that the difference in lateral force between using just a little too much slip angle and way too much slip angle is minimal (just few %) and in my view too little.

After the peak of the curve, lateral force can fall off 30% within a few degrees of extra slip angle. At these high slip angles most of the contact patch is sliding, producing a lot of heat and wear.

Source:
http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt2.htm

This graph shows amount of lateral force lost after exceeding optimal slip angle.
trackdays_setup1_clip_image004.jpg



When cornering, in order to drive fast and to use the tyres maximum traction, it is important to try to remain in this 8 – 10 degree slip region. Generally, sudden steering inputs (and indeed sudden use of throttle/brake as shall be explained later) cause the tyres to go beyond this region. It is therefore important to be smooth with all driver inputs in order to remain in this maximum traction zone.


Source:
http://www.macgracing.co.uk/trackdays_setup1.shtml

This quote is refering the tyres in real life (with a bit bigger optimal slip angle than in this BMW).
In Assetto Corsa it seems, that you don't have to be very smooth to be fast, because the tyres behaviour is too forigving past optimal slip angles.

For example you can drive like in video below and you won't loose as much time as you would if you drove like that in real life.


In my opinion with this tyre behaviour in this game, it promotes over agressive driving (when you drive aggresively, you use bigger slip angles).
I think, that you can often have better lap times, when driving aggresively, then when trying to be very smooth.


Here is this thread:

http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/i...t-high-slip-angles-vs-small-slip-angles.4228/


Is he talking rubbish or is AC not as realistic as we all thought ?
 
I think cornering and being fast is a bit more complex than just a mathematical/physical solution. The angle of the turn is a big factor in that. Slipping 4 wheels into a low-angle turn won't make you faster at all, but doing that with a 90-ish degree turn would gain you tons of time, over trying to grip it all the way being smooth. Same with hairpins, but with even more slip angle. Of course you can be smooth while driving agressively. Using tires to their max potential doesn't equal using the optimal slip angle.
 
The lateral force will drop due to acceleration and braking.

When the tire sees a combination of forces, driving force and lateral force are shown here, maximum lateral force is not available. In this example, adding driving power to the tire reduces the available lateral force. Of course this is what we feel powering out of a slow corner-power oversteer-one of the most fun things you can do with a car.
(From the site he already linked in the quote http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt2.htm )

If you don't change speed it won't fall off drastically. If you get higher slip ratio the peak will be "less peaky" (see the small text and images under "Combined Forces" in the above link) but overall forces will be less.
 
These tests really need to plot slip ratio of the tyres at the same time.

They say they are threshold braking but because the peak slip ratio is so small, if they are just 5-10% before peak slip ratio then the overall force available might be the same for a hot locked slick tyre.

You really can't judge based on a video like this, you need the tyre information.


Even on the AC forum thread it's not clear.


Not saying we shouldn't be checking this, or that there is actually anything right or wrong, but ultimately our test gear is sadly nowhere near good enough in this beta version to log and analyse what is going on.

What you need is a plot of slip ratio and tyre force over many stops and then you can check the shape of the slip ratio vs force curve.

I have a feeling that there are points in the curve where the force is much higher but it's such a narrow window that it's very hard to find and maintain.

Consider that the tyre is heating up as you slow down, so gaining grip, and then perhaps over-heating and losing grip, so to hit that moving range of maybe 5-10% of the slip ratio curve where there IS more grip vs locked tyres, is gonna be damn hard!


Technically it's either right or wrong, and easy to check. I'm sure Aris and guys know this by now so hopefully if there is an issue here it'll be resolved for a future update :)

Dave
 

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