PC1 bManic's FFB experiment - Thrustmaster TX / T300

[bmanic]

UPDATE! I changed Relative Adjust Bleed to 0.3 instead of 0.45 (which could cause some oddities)

UPDATE2!: More and more people with other wheel brands have tried the settings and it's starting to look as if these may work for quite a few wheels. T500 is confirmed as working pretty well, Fanatec GT2/GT3RS v2 also confirmed as working better than defaults and one Fanatec CSW v2 also happy.

UPDATE3!: There seems to be some confusion about Steering Arm Angle and what it is. It is NOT the same as Steering Ratio, which is a VEHICLE SETUP parameter. Arm Angle can be found in the car garage menu, under the Force Feedback Tab (it's the middle tab, between Vehicle and Summary tabs), the last option on the first page is called Arm Angle. This is the one I mean. Everything in this thread is about Force Feedback, not about vehicle setups!

Update4!: Brandon Wright noticed quite a bit of spikes and odd behavior which seems to be related to the Relative Adjust Bleed parameter. It is possible that my value of 0.3 is still too large so if any of you guys are suffering from these spikes then try a lower setting. You can go as low as 0.05 until you lose the benefit of the Relative Adjust processing block.


Hi guys,

So I finally had some time to play the game and I've spent the whole day experimenting with a new way to squeeze the massive FFB dynamic range into a range that our consumer wheels can tolerate while getting as much information as possible from the FFB (meaning: no hard clipping).

I would love it if you Thrustmaster TX and T300 owners would try these settings. NOTE: You must follow these instructions TO THE LETTER or the experience will be different to mine. Feedback that is provided without following every single point to the letter will be useless and thus ignored.

Why? Because the FFB system in pCars is extremely flexible and thus complex. It is also highly dynamic which means that a single tiny tweak of a crucial parameter (like tire force / master scale multiplier, spindle arm angle or the ratio of Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz) will alter the system. Thus, if you want stronger or weaker forces, use your Thrustmaster Control Panel program to control this! Do NOT change the in-game settings to achieve this!

These are my Thrustmaster Control Panel gain settings:

Overall strength of all forces = 75%
Constant = 100%
Periodic = 0%
Spring = 0%
Damper = 0%

Auto-center settings = by the game (recommended)

Step 1)

Set your Thrustmaster Control Panel settings. You can use my settings to start with. These result in fairly heavy forces. A good workout but not impossible to drive with. If you are a masochist, set the strength to 100%. I often drive longer races with the strength set to 60%.

Step 2)

Start Project CARS and reset your wheel then do the wheel calibration again as follows:

a) turn wheel FULLY LEFT AND RIGHT.. all the way! My TX wheel requires me to truly wrestle the wheel to get it 100%, otherwise it stops at 96%.

b) follow the 90 degree rotation to the letter.. this means you set your wheel so that it is physically pointing exactly 90 degrees to either left or right. Do NOT set it so that you get perfectly 900 or 1080 degrees here. Set it so that it is truly pointing 90 degrees to either side. For example, my wheel when set so that it is physically pointing 90 degrees results in a steering rotation of 882 degrees.

c) calibrate your pedals

d) configure your buttons

Step 3)

Make sure your FFB Strength in-game is set to 100/maximum! This is very important! It defaults to 75. Also make sure the FFB damping saturation setting is set to ZERO. It defaults to 25. (you find these options under the CONFIGURATION tab in the controls preferences)

Step 4)

Go into the "calibrate FFB" menu and set the following (parameters not mentioned should be left at default!):

Tire Force = 100

Deadzone Removal Range = 0.03
Deadzone Removal Falloff = 0.02

Relative Adjust Gain = 1.37 (sometimes it shows 137 and leaves the " . " out)
Relative Adjust Bleed = 0.30
Relative Adjust Clamp = 1.33 (sometimes it shows 133 and leaves the " . " out)

Scoop Knee = 0.12
Scoop Reduction = 0.08

Soft Clipping (Half Input) = 0.60
Soft Clipping (Full Output) = 1.79

Step 5)

Individual car setup FFB settings! I've only had time to test 3 cars but from these you can quickly extrapolate and get the general idea. The main idea is to have a Mz heavy setup and to set a good spindle arm angle and then to set a good Master Scale value so that the FFB "pushes" into the Relative Gain and Soft Clipping at proper levels. These usually end up in the 26 to 36 range, depending on how much down force the car produces or how heavy it is. Here are the settings for the 3 cars that tried:

<--- CAR SETUP - FFB TAB - --->

Lykan Hypersport:

Master Scale = 32

Fx = 68
Fy = 36
Fz = 74
Mz = 100

(note!! set all Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz smoothing to zero!!)

Steering Arm Angle = 2200

BMW Z4 GT3:

Master Scale = 28

Fx = 66
Fy = 44
Fz = 82
Mz = 100

(note!! set all Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz smoothing to zero!!)

Steering Arm Angle = 2000

Formula B:

Master Scale = 30

Fx = 68
Fy = 36
Fz = 74
Mz = 100

(note!! set all Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz smoothing to zero!!)

Steering Arm Angle = 2500
----------------------------------------------------------------------

That's it. You are done. Go into the game and enjoy pretty detailed FFB. To appreciate the full range of FFB I highly recommend turning off all driving aids. I'll add more cars to this thread once I have a chance to test some more.

NOTE!: I will NOT be providing FFB .xml files because they do not seem to work as expected. This is a complete system where every individual setting feeds into one another and thus becomes a quite complex thing. The general signal flow is like this (at least it used to be like this right before release):

Tire Force * Master Scale -> Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz -> Spindle Arm Angle -> Relative Gain -> Soft Clipping -> Scoop -> Tighten Center

As I've understood it, Relative Gain and Soft Clipping are non-linear functions and thus quite complex in nature. Even small input variations can cause quite a different feel in the wheel. Because there are two of these functions after one another and they feed an inherently non-linear device (your consumer wheel) you can probably appreciate how quickly things get complicated. You'll easily notice this by simply tweaking the Master Scale of each car or change the Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz relative ratios. Like I said in the beginning of the post, the main point is to squeeze as much "useful" information into the limited dynamic range of our consumer wheels and this means compressing the heck out of it.


You lucky s.o.b's with direct drive wheels can ignore all this and simply set pCars as fully linear and have a ridiculously awesome experience. You may still want to adjust the Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz settings like I have them above but disregard everything else (remove all soft clip and all relative gain and scoop stuff. Heck, I'd even remove tighten center).

Cheers!
bManic

 

[jimortality]

@bmanic Can you try the Clio cup please.

 

[Jezza819]

Just to be clear. When you say calibrate the wheel at a physical 90 degrees you mean have your hands in the 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock positions, right?

 

[jimortality]

UPDATE! Relative Gain Bleed to 0.3 instead of 0.45 (which could cause some oddities)

Which part is this? we have relative adjust gain, adjust bleed, adjust clamp

 

[Brandon Wright]

The steering arm angle is accessible in the garage settings on the track...if you use your d-pad on your wheel to scroll down it will be there

Not the one I'm referring to, it can only be accessed in your garage from the main menu.

Edit: The one I'm referring to is Spindle Arm Angle

 

[bmanic]

I would never set Fy that far down, quite the opposite. It´s my favorite FFB-Slider and gives me the best feeling for weight transfer and possible oversteer spins.

Note that Fy is by far the strongest force. If you set it equal to all the other forces it completely dominates. At 50 it's still quite dominant. This is why I keep it so low.

Also, Mz is more "informative" when it comes to optimum grip / optimum slip angle. Thus it's the most important force to listen to for quick laptimes. That is how I measure my FFB settings. I drive many laps around a track that I know extremely well (dubai, silverstone, brands hatch or oulton park) and see which of my FFB changes result in consistently fast laptimes. If one setting clearly hampers my driving then I disregard it and start over until my laptimes go up. Then I rinse and repeat for each change.

 

[bmanic]

Which part is this? we have relative adjust gain, adjust bleed, adjust clamp

Sorry about the confusion! Relative Adjust Bleed was what I meant. I keep naming it wrong as it was called this in the old alpha and beta versions.

Let me know if any other settings are wrongly named. It keeps down on confusion.

 

[bmanic]

Just to be clear. When you say calibrate the wheel at a physical 90 degrees you mean have your hands in the 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock positions, right?

Yes. Wheel center pointing exactly 90 degrees, which would mean hands end up 12 and 6 o'clock.

 

[bmanic]

@bmanic Can you try the Clio cup please.

Will do today! Stay tuned. It's one of my favorite cars in the game.

 

[bmanic]

By the way guys, thanks for all the feedback! Here's what I wrote on the official pCars forums.

"I highly recommend experimenting with your own Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz settings.. you don't have to wait for me to post my findings. Just experiment. The main part of my FFB settings are in the controller settings.. the combination of Relative Adjust Gain and Soft Clip is the key to this."

Having said that, keep in mind that Fy is the strongest force.. Mz contains the most important "detail" when it comes to grip. Fx is what you want to tune if you want more road noise and such but it will also possibly distort the feeling of breaking so you need a good balance between Fx, Fz and Mz to feel all the various grip losses.

You can also experiment with SoP (seat of the pants). Keep in mind though that SoP derives it's input from G-forces and can thus override/mask some of the tire forces as these all happen at the same time. Thus you may lose a bit of detail. I highly recommend really tiny values for SoP.. even at the lowest possible settings you should be able to feel and benefit from the effect.

 

[bonovoice]

Will do today! Stay tuned. It's one of my favorite cars in the game.

What about Formula C and Formula Rookie?

 

[bmanic]

Just set them yourself. Experiment. General rule of thumb is to keep Mz at 100 and Fy less than half of that. Then set Fx and Fz somewhere in between.

Spindle Arm Angle can be found by experimenting. A general guideline would be:

- If the wheel is too tight in the middle and tends to suddenly go loose even if you are not severely understeering = increase spindle arm angle value.

- If the steering wheel is too loose in the middle and seems to get progressively tighter the more you turn it, even though you are already understeering, then decrease spindle arm angle.

Cheers!

 

[Msportdan]

I have body and sop set to 6% I get nice feel. But all the f values are 100. You really recommend putting fy down to 50? I'm on a t300

I've been using the karts to test as they would naturally give the most feedback.

 

[Brandon Wright]

So far the only real issue I have with the FFB is that it's very spikey/lumpy. When I go over small bumps my wheel makes huge movements back and forth, it feels very unnatural and unpleasing, almost like I'm driving over speed bumps (sleeping policemen). Are there any settings I can change that will lessen these spikes?

 

[bmanic]

@bmanic Can you try the Clio cup please.

As promised, here are settings for the Clio Cup (what an awesome car!). Note! I did change the default setup a bit.. it was a bit too tricky for me to drive so I had to change a few things. In the end I managed to consistently lap Donington National at 1:17.7xx +/- 0.1 seconds.

Renault Clio Cup

Master Scale = 34

Fx = 82
Fy = 60
Fz = 68
Mz = 100

(note!! set all Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz smoothing to zero!!)

Arm Angle = 700

 

[bmanic]

So far the only real issue I have with the FFB is that it's very spikey/lumpy. When I go over small bumps my wheel makes huge movements back and forth, it feels very unnatural and unpleasing, almost like I'm driving over speed bumps (sleeping policemen). Are there any settings I can change that will lessen these spikes?

Yes, you can add some Fx smoothing. If you are using my settings you can also try to remove the Scoop parameter (found in the controller preferences under 'FFB calibration' menu).

In general if you want a smoother experience try reducing Fx and smooth it out. You can also smooth out ALL the forces to your liking. This drastically removes spikes from the FFB but you will be losing details.

You could also tweak the suspension of the car so that it softer and less critically damped but that results in a more sluggish car and more body roll. If you look at some youtube videos you'll see that some race cars have quite violent wheel movements and this is due to the really hard suspension and dampers.

 

[bmanic]

I have body and sop set to 6% I get nice feel. But all the f values are 100. You really recommend putting fy down to 50? I'm on a t300

I've been using the karts to test as they would naturally give the most feedback.

First of all, I do not recommend using the karts as a FFB testing platform. Why? Because they are so drastically different to all the other cars. They are also a bit wonky due to no properly simulated chassis flex (they have some tiny springs and dampers to compensate for this).

.. and yes, I really do recommend setting Fy to a lower value but ultimately it is your own subjective choice. For ultimate grip information you need to feel the "twisting" of the tire, not just the side load of the tire. Hence Mz is inherently more useful for learning to drive faster laptimes than Fy. If you just want a "nice feel" for the FFB then go ahead and tweak any parameter the way you want until it feels nice. There are no rules.

My recommendations are all based on one single goal: Faster consistent laptimes. It's the only slightly objective way of measuring one FFB setting versus another. Everything else falls under 100% subjective. Also note that my car specific recommendations in this thread all assume that you have followed my settings for the actual wheel you are using. This means editing Relative Adjust Gain and all those parameters in the FFB Calibration menu. Without these my car specific settings don't mean much.

Cheers!

 

[Brandon Wright]

Yes, you can add some Fx smoothing. If you are using my settings you can also try to remove the Scoop parameter (found in the controller preferences under 'FFB calibration' menu).

In general if you want a smoother experience try reducing Fx and smooth it out. You can also smooth out ALL the forces to your liking. This drastically removes spikes from the FFB but you will be losing details.

You could also tweak the suspension of the car so that it softer and less critically damped but that results in a more sluggish car and more body roll. If you look at some youtube videos you'll see that some race cars have quite violent wheel movements and this is due to the really hard suspension and dampers.

Thanks, I'll give it a shot. I just watched an onboard video from a Clio Cup at Donnington (the car I've been testing with and having big spikes) and his wheel had no big movements cause by the track surface, it looked like the only movements the wheel made were from his inputs. I'd like my wheel to be similar.

If I lower my Fx settings or add Fx damping will that negatively effect the other settings you've provided?

 

[Msportdan]

im sorry but basing FFB on how quick you go is wrong.. imo..

You basically using the ffb to make the game easier for you to make you go faster.. real life drivers do not get this luxury..

I recommend making it feel as real as possible then try and go fast after that. otherwise its your making the sim even more fake.

 

[Brandon Wright]

im sorry but basing FFB on how quick you go is wrong.. imo..

You basically using the ffb to make the game easier for you to make you go faster.. real life drivers do not get this luxury..

I recommend making it feel as real as possible then try and go fast after that. otherwise its your making the sim even more fake.

As he said, doing it based on lap times is the only way to get any objective data because FFB is a very subjective thing and everyone likes/wants something different. He made it clear that whether you prefer these settings or not is entirely subjective, but since a lot of people here probably really care about their lap times he's providing useful data to a lot of people.

 

[Brandon Wright]

The steering arm angle is accessible in the garage settings on the track...if you use your d-pad on your wheel to scroll down it will be there

I stand corrected, arm angle IS available from the pit menu. I had been trying to use the mouse to scroll down and it wouldn't scroll so I figured there were no more options, but if I hit the arrow pad it does scroll down.