Automobilista 2 | New Update, Silverstone And Historic F1 Cars Released

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That's an assumption, you know nothing about me mate.

very enhanced sense of entitlement? Go on, I'm listening. I've lived in one of the poorest parts of the country all my life. I really don't feel entitled to that much.

a decided lack of appreciation? We should appreciate paying money for something selling itself as a simulator with physics that defy the laws of physics? I've already stated clearly in another post that i have nothing but love for Reiza after AMS1.

I have no prejudice whatsoever with the chosen engine. I fully understand the decision to go with SMS, Renato stated his case quite clearly. With this knowledge I made the decision to purchase with my own money. Doesn't sound very prejudiced.

The last time i picked up AMS2 within half a lap in a strange car, on a strange track, in a strange sim i was powersliding and drifting like a king...in an F3, hardly the drifters choice. There is something fundamentally flawed with the physics of this thing. More than just tyre adjustments or FFB.

But rather than start a conversation that might be useful for something, you end up wasting time and effort replying to people that feel you shouldn't bring an opinion to a forum. And then people wonder why its a hot mess with falling player numbers. Oh well, you can only try.

Edited to be less provocative. Bob
Which works both ways, in case you hadn't noticed. The discussion would also be "helped" if people didn't keep bad-mouthing AMS 2 based on nothing more than the history of a totally unrelated sim.

It would be further helped if people just stuck to their own opinions instead of criticising each other for having said opinions, positive or negative. There's nothing wrong with defending something you like from people who don't like it, and there's nothing wrong with criticising something you don't like regardless of how many people do like it. But when people start criticising each other, that's what turns a discussion into a pointless petty argument.


Speak for yourself. At no point was that comment by Kenny aimed at you personally, nor did it even suggest you fall into the "some" he was talking about. Yet you immediately assumed he was talking about you personally and get all funny about it.

That's another issue against discussion these days... "some" people insist on taking everything personally, even when it's blatantly not intended that way. :rolleyes:

Once again i make a perfectly reasonable post and i'm jumped on for it. While Kenny's comment might not have been aimed at me it certainly reads that way, the reader can judge. And if someone makes slanderous comments for no apparent reason then yes i'm likely to respond. At no point did i bad mouth at, swear at or say anything to upset Kenny.

If you noticed Kenny put out an apology which i responded to within about a minute. I guess we were already over it.

Though please accept my apology if your post is aimed at someone else Goffik.
 
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The last time i picked up AMS2 within half a lap in a strange car, on a strange track, in a strange sim i was powersliding and drifting like a king...in an F3, hardly the drifters choice. There is something fundamentally flawed with the physics of this thing. More than just tyre adjustments or FFB.

Just for fun and not as an exercise in toxicity, I took the F309 out for a spin this morning on Brands Hatch. Guess what. If you enable a drift in that car, you spin out. After learning this car properly, I managed a 2nd place in the current Time trial standings.

I'm not saying your physics POV is unfounded or that your experience when you last played isn't valid. No one is attacking you here mate. However, i'd highly encourage you to keep up with the development as you may end up missing out on a good thing.
 

Kenny Paton

Staff
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I've moved this part of my post and edited it so there's nothing personal in it.

Nowadays it seems that some in the community have a very enhanced sense of entitlement, a decided lack of appreciation coupled with already prejudiced view because of the game engine used.
We are to small a niche genre to be squabbling all the time. Having been away for some months I have been saddened by the toxicity and negativity that seems to have gained ground in recent months.
Why when we have so many choices in what sim/game we play are so many people angry because it's not the same one as their choice.
Pardon the rant, but it's really struck me.
 
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The last time i picked up AMS2 within half a lap in a strange car, on a strange track, in a strange sim i was powersliding and drifting like a king...in an F3, hardly the drifters choice. There is something fundamentally flawed with the physics of this thing. More than just tyre adjustments or FFB.
And when was the last time that happened?

Because when I first played AMS 2 back in Early Acess I drove the Formula Reiza and could also drift that car around very easily, which, among other issues, caused me to first refund the game, but since the last update if I try to drift the F-Reiza I will spin out so there's a big chance that the F3 car has been fixed as well.

You ask for an honest discussion of the problems and issues with AMS 2, and I agree, I myself am not yet 100% happy with everything and every car in the game, but saying that there is something fundamentally flawed with the physics when even Niels Heusinkveld says otherwise doesn't sound like an "honest" start to the conversation, unless you're also an expert physics developer.

With the last few updates some cars in the sim have already improved to the point where I see them as being at least just good as the best cars in any other sim, so that tells me that those cars that do not yet feel 100% convincing can be corrected just the same and judging by Reiza's past history I'm confident they'll do it.
 

Goffik

RMG Motorsports
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Premium
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Once again i make a perfectly reasonable post and i'm jumped on for it.
Right, so my post in response to yours isn't "reasonable"? You're allowed to react however you want, rightly or wrongly, but I'm not supposed to say anything if I disagree with you?

Honestly, discussion just isn't possible around here. I give up.
 
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what get's me about "simmers" is the assumption that everyone and their driving style can just drop into a car and get on with it.

We all know that in the real world drivers can setup cars VERY differently, and one driver will attempt anothers settings and HATE them because they make the car drive like ****.....for THEM.

e.g. with the "I like the Ginetta in sim A but in SIm B it's **** so Sim B is bunk"......maybe just maybe the default setups are not the same?

What people fail to understand is that although real physics is unified, it's the same everywhere in the universe. That's not the same in Sims (it should be, different story) but every sim will be different in small and large ways depending on the quality of the data they get from sources (and if there's any erroneous data input errors in the code).

For example tyres physics, the data from Pirelli's rubber will be completely different to the data from Michelin or Dunlop. And when you see TOP teams struggling to make a tyre work in REALITY then maybe people would understand that tyre physics is a really REALLY black art of witchcraft and sorcery.

So just pick the game you like best that suits your driving style and enjoy it. Life's too short.
 

Tarmac Terrorist

Paul McCaffrey
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589
UK
Wow, bit heated in here!

Well I've been at work and hadn't had the chance to try out the latest version and hotfix until today when I unexpectedly got a day off due to bad weather and so I thought ok today can be AMS2 day and....... What a day!!

Decided to try and see how consistent the new penalty system and A.I. are across a bunch of different cars and tracks with the existing content, as there is already alot of it, and also look for any major flaws, I only really found one serious one with the trucks, other than that, what a day!

Here's a bit of my day, which has been awsome!

4 laps at each track with a different care every time, same A.I. settings for each one, I found some very good consistency and had a fantastic day!

Bravo Reiza! Thanks for a great day off!

 
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Personally, I think AMS2 is improving and yes, I know its still early days (after official release). But I think there is room for improvement, when compared to the drivabilty of AMS(1). I am optimistic, but taking nothing for granted.
 
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What people fail to understand is that although real physics is unified, it's the same everywhere in the universe. That's not the same in Sims (it should be, different story) but every sim will be different in small and large ways depending on the quality of the data they get from sources (and if there's any erroneous data input errors in the code).

Thing is, this is without even getting into how at some point every sim HAS to make concessions somewhere along the line. Until We can simulate an entire universe on the atom level and then drive in it some stuff is going to be a bit off inherently. Not that things can't or shouldn't be improved in the meantime.
 
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Thing is, this is without even getting into how at some point every sim HAS to make concessions somewhere along the line. Until We can simulate an entire universe on the atom level and then drive in it some stuff is going to be a bit off inherently. Not that things can't or shouldn't be improved in the meantime.

Yup, it's all about the data. Even then tyre data is probably hard to interpret even for the experts. We are talking about a chemical reaction, and trying to simulate that as efficiently as possible. To do it 100% accurately would probably need HAL. So devs do the best they can with the CPU resources available.

At the mo I think devs have two choices to improve things. Keep it simple, no weather, minimal changing track conditions, get the tyres working as realistic as possible in a narrow window.

Or be more "real" expand the window, but then you get gaps in the data and the devs have to fill in those gaps, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

I actually wish (like Durge Driven) that someone would do a physics engine for racing sim and all the devs would just license the series/cars/tracks they want and do that. Of course we'd have the arguments about "what" current engine would be the "one", but I say let's get all the physics guru's working together (ego's permitting) and get that unified physics engine. (I can dream!)
 

Tarmac Terrorist

Paul McCaffrey
436
589
UK
Yup, it's all about the data. Even then tyre data is probably hard to interpret even for the experts. We are talking about a chemical reaction, and trying to simulate that as efficiently as possible. To do it 100% accurately would probably need HAL. So devs do the best they can with the CPU resources available.

At the mo I think devs have two choices to improve things. Keep it simple, no weather, minimal changing track conditions, get the tyres working as realistic as possible in a narrow window.

Or be more "real" expand the window, but then you get gaps in the data and the devs have to fill in those gaps, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

I actually wish (like Durge Driven) that someone would do a physics engine for racing sim and all the devs would just license the series/cars/tracks they want and do that. Of course we'd have the arguments about "what" current engine would be the "one", but I say let's get all the physics guru's working together (ego's permitting) and get that unified physics engine. (I can dream!)

Now that is a great dream! I've often thought the same, the best sim would be the sim with all the best bits from every sim!
 
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The fact that sim physics are interpretations of real world physics subject to different data and different mindsets is the exact reason why a single physics engine across all sims will not be a thing at least for a long time. That would only slow down progress and innovation I think.

As soon as a group of "physics guru's" tried to get together to do an ultimate universal physics engine some genius kid in his garage would figure out that there might be a better way to simulate aero or damage and start is own indie engine, while other smart dude in is basement might figure out a better way to do tires or suspension and start yet another engine, while some group in some university somewhere might figure out a way to do better chassis flex, and so on... it's just the way technology evolves and that's how sim racing physics have come so far in the latest years: trough the efforts and discoveries of different teams pulling one another trough healthy competition.

I'd rather have that than a single engine that would barely evolve because there would be too many "cooks", too many egos's and too many differences of opinion going on to change or improve anything, which is what would probably happen under this utopia of a single engine that some here like to dream about.
 
I certainly hope the idea of one universal engine everyone uses doesn't happen, ever. That sounds dreadful. I suspect even people who now might think it would be a good idea might fairly quickly change their mind if that ever happened, because I think when people say that, they kinda go with the assumption the "unified sim engine" would be exactly how they like things to be, which might very well not be the case. It's like you're an ACC fan, so you'd like a unified sim engine that handles like ACC, but what you'd get would handle like AMS2 (for example).

It's good to have choice and be able to pick the approach/implementation you personally prefer.
 
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That's why I said it's a dream, in a perfect world It would be the best way to do something as it would be 100% simulation without guesswork, all the real world data in one place. So yeah it'll never happen and the sim world will continue to be fragmented and argue like chlidren! ;)
 
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"100% simulation" is an oxymoron, IMO. (But I do kinda understand what you mean, even though...see above.)

Yeah I'm only talking theoretical absolutes, with all the data from all the tyre manufacturers, suspension manufacturers and chassis designers, coupled with revolutionary physics simulations of molecules we could get 100% simulation.....not quite sure what sort of processing power would be required though....I think I said HAL before.....maybe a couple of HALS along with Holly?
 
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Yeah I'm only talking theoretical absolutes, with all the data from all the tyre manufacturers, suspension manufacturers and chassis designers, coupled with revolutionary physics simulations of molecules we could get 100% simulation.....

But you'd never get the real vibration or G forces so it still wouldn't be "100% simulation", just a more realistic game.
 
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But you'd never get the real vibration or G forces so it still wouldn't be "100% simulation", just a more realistic game.

100% correct, although to be fair I'm more talking about how the car handles rather than how it "feels" to be handling. But yeah I've been saying this for years about FFB, and car "feeling", unless you're sat in a full on sim rig with hydraulics throwing you around then no "sim" realistically conveys how it feels.

Take braking, as you brake you will feel the retardation in your body, but the seconds those tyres slip and lock up you feel the retardation reduce and stop all together, making brake modulation a hell of a lot easier as you feel for the limit. No game can simulate (outside of a hydraulic sim rig) that sensation, all FFB can do is reduce the motor resistance to the wheel to simulate grip loss, nothing felt in the "seat of your pants".
 
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