Are simracers the biggest naysayers in the world?

OK so I noticed so many topics, specially on AC forums about the sim having too much traction etc... For example a guy that drove a real xbow but at golf cart speed and on a damp track saying the AC xbow has too much traction when stepping on throttle. So he compares two very different conditions and you see all this discussion going on without anybody having actually tested the exact same car(from tires, setup etc...) and same track conditions. I have done many track days with a Rotax max kart and I tell you even if there are litlerally few drops of rain on track it changes traction dramatically(even more so in a car).

Not trying to be a fanboy but netkar for me always was a different kind of sim, on another level from anything else(with some minor faults ofcourse in physics of some cars). AC I think is now really the peak of what they could achieve with their current knowledge and also computing capabilities of our PCs. The latter is important and extremely tricky as developers have to make simplifications of some physics coding for normal PCs to support.

Im just saying we should enjoy what Kunos brought to us so far. Doubting is healthy ofcourse but too much is too much. If you do it, at least have some real experiances and proof before making a 10 page topic of how easy the sim is while youre several seconds off pace.;)

My 0,02$:coffee:
 
I not a simracer but from what i observe there are at least 3 common type of "hardcore simracer".

1. Some who invest alot of $$$ in all type of equipment such as wheel / pedal / H-shifter / 3-monitor cockpit setup / racing seat n many other expensive stuffs for the game. They consider themselve "HARDCORE" merely because they spend alot of $$$ on it but in fact they dont have real life Professional racing experience & often off pace in game.
2. Some who only play sim racing game for a very long time say at least 10 years, they might only have wheel & pedal but they only play sim racing & play for a very long time, they consider themselve "HARDCORE" merely because they dont play any other racing genre (simcade / arcade) & already spend lot of time on the game but again they dont have real life Professional racing experience & often off pace in game .
3. A combine of 1 & 2 who has lot of $$$ to spend on equipment & play sim for a very long time without real life Professional racing experience.

Well, that would make me a new no. 4 :)

I have the cash to spend, 15+ years invested in simulation software and a large motorsports interest, but I ALSO HAVE actual racing experience. Tin-top sedan, radicals and rally group H RWD, some nice mix there :)

What that makes me is a person who wants the ultimate realism in terms of feel. It is not so much about the stats, it is about genuine feel. To make sure i do not misjudge the feeling of realism developers try to portray i use high end sim gear, be it flight, racing, other... . What i need is the simulated object to behave as the real one.

In AC i think there is such a correlation, however hindered a bit by the unfinished state of the product. But the foundation is definitely there.

By the way, speaking of the strange Ferrari suspension... Most suspension linkages would allow a camber flex of -6 degrees, given bushings and mounts are adjusted.

But i don't see it flex much in AC, even at bump while body roll, so i dunno.

The behaviour of the cars feel good to me, maybe they need a bit more weight. I am having trouble feeling the inertia.

But one should also remember that an accurate simulation without the graphical trickery to enhance the presentation of reality will feel unrealistic in itself, due to the disconnect between sim and real world perception.

With simulated head movement, motion blur, speed tunnel vision, etc. the simulation appears more real to you.

And THIS is an often forgotten realm of simracing. This is the thing i need most improvement in... Simulating the vehicle is one thing and is done extremely well by all major players on the scene already... Simulating the EXPERIENCE is definitely not up to speed... This would be a separate kind of simulation, simulating the forces acting on the virtual driver in natural ways. This could probably remove many of the cases where ppl. think a car is badly simulated, even if it follows specs and physics data by the books. Since it does not relay this in an immersive manner it is pointless.
 
I'd like to see more information about the physics as well, so far it has been very limited. This is among the only posts that has gone a bit deeper below the surface explaining the tire model. Anyway, I expect this to improve at some point since the basics of the physics engine needs to be understood in order to create good mods for the title. So far all the physics files in AC seem to be encrypted, I presume in order to protect the car manufacturer data.

It is difficult to assess what we see.

In the F458 files for instance there is a mix of mainly obvious values, some other values which are quite complex like AOA LUT impacting the overall body drag/lift coefficient for the car.
But then we see things like the crazy -6deg camber at the bump stops. In theory over the full stroke range of that suspension it must go from about +3deg > -6deg camber from full rebound to full bump! 9 deg camber change through the stroke of the suspension? Seems a bit mad.

So that makes me then not trust the idea that the AOA LUT's are manufacturer data driven, and just more educated guesses...
And if the suspension is educated guesses and it's really wrong, then is the AOA LUT data bad educated guesses?



The drivetrain.ini for the F458 reads more like for a manual or automated manual gearbox, not for DSG.

Ie, DSG we can slip clutches across the gear shift. But right here it seems up-shift and down-shift use the same profile, and that has a 40ms gap between clutch disengagement and re-engagement. In practice the F458 will be having two clutches partially engaged at the same time for maximum speed shifts at full throttle.

Yet at partial loads there may be even more slip for a smoother gear change.

There is nothing in there to allow that kind of logic.

Autoblip is equally limited with just single value inputs. Maybe we can fill these with LUT referencing some other variable (like load?), but for now the blip is equally aggressive at full attack or just pootling along. Perhaps doing a shift to keep the car super stable between a left right apex is less easy with this system?


Car inertia is just based on box dimensions (car dimensions) x weight of total mass.

So things like wheels are included here... but in pitching unsprung weight shouldn't impact the pitch inertia fully, maybe 50%. In yaw it probably does impact the full inertia. In roll probably 50% again due to the suspension.

So no manufacturer data there for inertia.

Fuel consumption is a linear system, so just rpm * throttle * consumption coefficient. So no BSFC LUT even per car. So no manufacturer data there.




OK AC isn't finished yet. But I really hope to see all these obvious things made either more accurate or better.

I really won't be happy if the structure for creating content is so limited.


As I've mentioned before, a lot of this stuff is fine for a race car. But AC has road cars. And road cars are made with many different considerations to race cars and that is what makes them interesting to race around.
The compromises road cars have to make them nice to drive on the road day to day, but also good on track.


Just the MP4 12C for example, should really have a completely unique suspension system for the springs/damping rates. I'd be surprised to see if that is the case though.



So not being negative. Just being realistic. I really want to see AC do much more stuff and be more faithful to real cars because of it.

AC's tyres, and sounds for me right now are really nice. If the rest of AC can seem as well polished as these I'll be happy!



I just do wish KS would be more honest about what they WILL and WON'T do in AC.

They don't have to, but I think they should.

Dave
 
Just the MP4 12C for example, should really have a completely unique suspension system for the springs/damping rates. I'd be surprised to see if that is the case though.

Well the MP4 suspension feels completely different from all the other cars and seem to act differently as well., so whatever they are doing it's achieved what they set out to do.

There is an obsession amongst some people to know that every exact number is real, but quite frankly i have my doubts about this method. iRacing have apparently been plugging in all the correct data and trying to model systems correctly and look how that's gone! Some of the cars there are absolutely appalling, and if they drove like that in real life no one would ever buy one.

I'm absolutely sure the AC guys have all the data the manufacturers allow them to have. (some are very reluctant to describe exactly how some of their systems work, and who can blame them?)

Instead of this obsessive quest for perfection in numbers and data lets concentrate on the end results. Virtually everyone who owns or has driven the real life counterpart of an AC car reports extremely close behaviour to the real things. If it handles the same and performs the same then whatever data they are putting in is irrelevant, it's what is coming out that matters.

Ok, not many people will have driven the higher end super cars and race cars to make valid comparisons, but i think we can be assured that if the majority of the cars are behaving and performing like their real life counterparts, there's no reason not to think that all their cars are going to be petty close.

I've never driven a sim with more convincing car behaviour. I'm no longer bothered in the slightest by how they get the results they do. All i care about is my experience as the end user, and quite frankly it's never been so good.
 
Agreed Stuart, still, it's always a good thing if there are ways to make something even better.

I don't like these kind of persons who are nitpicking about every minor detail, but in the end it can help AC move forward, only if the feedback is constructive and based on relevant facts, instead of personal opinions.
 
@LazyBug , and how about people who are actually on the top pace, spent 10 years of playing but don't really have the money to invest into tripple screens and whatsoever. I mean, I've been in the scene for a bit more than 10 years now, and achieved a lot LFS-wise, yet I'm still here to correct stuff about AC, if there is any. Just because I enjoy how Kunos relies on a lot on community feedback, unlike Live for Speed did for the past what... 5 years? The best of feelings when Aristotelis' reaction to me calling E30 an underpowered dawg was... implementing an E46 swap in the next patch. Which might not be totally connected, but the fact was mentioned a lot of times other than my post, and found the right ears.
 
I think we need to make everything as accurate as we can. We can then tune things to make it feel 'right'...
Ie, if you know the kinematics, then you should use them. If things feel wrong then maybe it's incorrect inertias, tyres, or other modern car systems that cover up for these things.

I've generally found that real numbers make more sense when you combine them all properly, then made up ones!


But to just use unreal numbers to get a nice feeling seems wrong. If cars feel wrong then I'd say maybe your tyre model is wrong.
But since AC's tyre model feels very nice, I'd argue that we can simulate cars properly and should get a sensible feeling!


For now I've no idea what they are doing so it's impossible to say for sure.


I'll take a look more at the MP4 12C suspension then, and what is setting it apart, if anything, from the other cars in AC.

Dave
 
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I don't like these kind of persons who are nitpicking about every minor detail, but in the end it can help AC move forward, only if the feedback is constructive and based on relevant facts, instead of personal opinions.

I completely agree. If Mr Hmmm Whippy asked these questions directly on the main AC forum, or even messaged the developers personally then he might get the answers he's looking for. Instead he just posts his negative rambles over here expecting some sort of miracle to occur.

I'm all for anything that makes AC even better. If Dave thinks he knows best then it's time for him to talk to the developers about it. They're a friendly bunch who will discuss anything if approached in the correct way.
 
  • Deleted member 151827

I just hope that Kunos doesn't listen to the so called "experts" and ruin what i believe is a very good sim at the moment! I enjoy the cars in the sim immensely and would hate to have another rf2-iracing slip fest simulator!
 
I've asked over on the offical AC forums about the kinematic impacts on Fy through the rack for FF feelings in a very 'neutral' way and no one even seems to care to say one way or the other how the system works.

They do seem a friendly bunch when you have a bug to fix but as soon as you question the fundamentals of their product they seem to go quiet.


My ramblings are not negative. I'm merely curious and stating logically deducted conclusions.


I can do the same in a positive sense.

Tyre model feels top notch and seems to respond perfectly even doing stupid things.

Sounds seem really good, loads of diversity. It 'sounds' real to me. It does sound LDR, but LDR done extremely well. Personally I'd prefer a HDR and gain control like GT5 does, but that should be an easy fix/mod later I think.

Graphics shaders look great the for the interior car materials and bodywork of cars so far.


Lots done right, lots done wrong. There is nothing wrong with noting the wrong parts... and I've noted PLENTY of the right parts in my posts over the last month or so too!

Dave
 
feedback is constructive and based on relevant facts, instead of personal opinions.

You can't base feedback on facts if you don't know how the engine works to begin with.

How can we be truly critical analysis while KS leave us blindfolded to the workings underneath?

All I have to go on is my opinions based on my experience of simulators and cars... both of which I've had quite a lot of experience with... especially road cars.

Dave
 
If you don't have the proper facts to base your feedback on, I'd think you should hold your horses until you have some artillery to fire with. Now you are just shooting blanks. Where is that going to get you?

There is a reason Kunos doesn't give a full insight in how their game works. If they'd open up all data, it'd be really easy for the competition to get a sneak peak at how kunos creates their magic.
 
I have visions of Dave Kaemmer sat in his office desperately trying to work out Kunos' tyre model :laugh:

The tire model in AC isn't exactly some black art, it has actually been discussed in the previous quote I gave, and below is another one I found. It's more about evolution than revolution. But for the mod makers it would be nice if there would be a bit more information in public, but I guess it will come later (it took over 12 months for rF2 as well to get some of the tutorials in place, although I feel they are a bit more open about things in general).

The basic pacejka “magic formula” is still valid to create basic curves, but a good tyre model needs to be more dynamic. The model we see in netKar Pro V1.3, Ferrari Virtual Academy (FVA), and AC are all based on the idea of generating a “base” slip curve that is then adapted to the behaviour of the tyre. I call it “slip profile,” in netKar Pro and FVA this adaptation is done in steady state analysis, in AC I added the dynamic of the carcass and thread to the equations.
 
The basic pacejka “magic formula” is still valid to create basic curves, but a good tyre model needs to be more dynamic. The model we see in netKar Pro V1.3, Ferrari Virtual Academy (FVA), and AC are all based on the idea of generating a “base” slip curve that is then adapted to the behaviour of the tyre. I call it “slip profile,” in netKar Pro and FVA this adaptation is done in steady state analysis, in AC I added the dynamic of the carcass and thread to the equations.

Sounds simple, but I dont think so, not even tire manufacturers understand their products fully!
 
But then we see things like the crazy -6deg camber at the bump stops. In theory over the full stroke range of that suspension it must go from about +3deg > -6deg camber from full rebound to full bump! 9 deg camber change through the stroke of the suspension? Seems a bit mad.

That does sound a bit like the theoretical limit of the suspension layout, not what it does at the hmm maybe ~15cm wheel travel the car gets :)
 
@Kristóf Kerekes Yeah of cause i sure left out something since i only trying to figure the most common type but i suggest dont take too serious about what i write, i do this simply to spend some bore time when nothing to do in the office.

To be honest i might not even qualify to "speak" here since i play all type of racing game include the so call shitty NFS series & i dont even have license yet, almost about time to get one but not yet :poop: i do drive illegally (saloon car / 4x4 / truck / forklift / excavator n so on) for about 3 years in my father's construction site / somewhere around my house but then thats it.

So yes i dont know anything about all that camber setting / suspension behavior / tyre model stuffs because thats just too too deep for me, you better just kill me if you want me to learn all that :D But still i believe thats crazy if one expect to enjoy exact the same vs real life driving experience / immersive / sensation or whatever from a USD60 racing game using merely a wheel while sitting comfortably in the room. To me no way it can be exactly the same, 85% or 90% close, yeah may be but 95% or exactly 100% ?? NO.

If there really a racing game can offer 100% exact real life experience then all people around the world who play the game will become world class champion right away the next day they go real go pro once they become very good in the game & i can see the day coming i beat Alonso in real Formula One the very 1st day i go pro as long as i become so good playing the game if Codemaster start making "true sim
" F1 series :D But needless to say "true sim" like this will never happen, at least not from a USD60 game.

Of cause, i might be wrong, no shame of it since i already make lot of mistake in my life so far :D
 
There is an obsession amongst some people to know that every exact number is real, but quite frankly i have my doubts about this method. iRacing have apparently been plugging in all the correct data and trying to model systems correctly and look how that's gone! Some of the cars there are absolutely appalling, and if they drove like that in real life no one would ever buy one.
That just goes to show the importance of a good tire model (both iRacing being limited, and AC getting away with simplifications behind good tires).

It was mentioned the intertia was done as uniform distribution. Question: do the cars have asymmetric weight distributions? I would have a hard time believing they did.
 
"Are Sim-Racers the biggest Naysayers in the world"

Well I think that question is open to personal interpretation to be honest, for me, I'd say no, but in the same breath some sim-racers can be a very hard to please, as is evident in this thread.

My opinion is this; There will NEVER be a true race, flight, military or any form of sim that can recreate reality, no matter how much we argue this point it will never happen. For me the current offerings by the main Dev teams vying for our hard earned dollars is outstanding, and the development of sim's has come along way from the early days of GPL or GP2 when FFB wasn't even heard of.

What we all need to remember is that the physics that go into these Sims are not always the exact physics that are being recorded by the equipment used to calculate them, trying to replicate the data of real world physics would no doubt be a daunting task when trying to code it into a Sim/game, but the Dev's seem to be able to replicate it well enough to convince/trick our minds into believing what we are feeling is REAL, and this brings me to the point, "it's all in the personal interpretation and opinion of what we perceive to be real".

What we all forget is, "we are all different" we all interpret things from our own perceptions of the experience we draw from the Sims, Arcade-Sims or Arcade games we enjoy playing, no 2 people think quite the same, sure we may agree in many cases but we are still individuals with individual opinions. This is evident in the debate that has raged in relation to which Sim is more accurate in it's physics, I find AC's physics feel far more accurate than rF2 or pCars, but that's my interpretation, and not everyone will agree, that's human nature.

In the end it doesn't really matter which game is the most accurate, what does matter is we all enjoy our game of choice, and if need be "agree to disagree" life's to short to spend in flame wars over something so petty as "my game is better than yours" etc etc.

Cheers!!
 
  • Deleted member 151827

In me opinion sim RACING is about a simulateted race experience. Racing with real people on the same track at the same time. Driving defending lines, prepare an overtake, managing a gap, etc...

For me realism is not all about car physics.

You make sim racing realistic! :thumbsup:

Yes! It's all about the fun for me! :)
 

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