Are simracers the biggest naysayers in the world?

[Joco Gorenc]

OK so I noticed so many topics, specially on AC forums about the sim having too much traction etc... For example a guy that drove a real xbow but at golf cart speed and on a damp track saying the AC xbow has too much traction when stepping on throttle. So he compares two very different conditions and you see all this discussion going on without anybody having actually tested the exact same car(from tires, setup etc...) and same track conditions. I have done many track days with a Rotax max kart and I tell you even if there are litlerally few drops of rain on track it changes traction dramatically(even more so in a car).

Not trying to be a fanboy but netkar for me always was a different kind of sim, on another level from anything else(with some minor faults ofcourse in physics of some cars). AC I think is now really the peak of what they could achieve with their current knowledge and also computing capabilities of our PCs. The latter is important and extremely tricky as developers have to make simplifications of some physics coding for normal PCs to support.

Im just saying we should enjoy what Kunos brought to us so far. Doubting is healthy ofcourse but too much is too much. If you do it, at least have some real experiances and proof before making a 10 page topic of how easy the sim is while youre several seconds off pace.

My 0,02$

 

[Stereo]

To be honest a good racing game should always try its best to find a balance between fun vs reality driving .. i mean a racing game which is 100% perfect reality sim actually harm sales, because game like that will be too difficult for 90% of player to play since 90% of player actually cant drive well (include me )

I dunno why being realistic should make it hard to play. It's hard to match the ability of top players, but that's true of every game regardless of genre. Not everyone does a 1:00 flat lap at Silverstone in the same way not everyone can go through a thousand rows of Tetris.

What's often lacking of sims is the 'game' aspect - it's not enough to perfectly realize the feeling of sitting in a F1 car, many people want to race and win. (or just race and hit lots of things maybe). It doesn't matter if Mario Kart's realistic karting, it's got leagues and competition, so you drive more laps to try to win more. And there's always gonna be another faster player out there, but that's only unfun if you have to play against them every time. Likewise, if the AI's just plain faster than you (or even cheats) it's not as much fun.

I feel like a valid complaint is "it's easier to drive fast in an unrealistic manner" but I haven't seen any evidence of that in AC - the fast drivers are hitting apexes, managing tire heat, setting their cars to fit the track, etc. driving with the assists off to get a faster lap.

 

[Chris]

I feel like a valid complaint is "it's easier to drive fast in an unrealistic manner" but I haven't seen any evidence of that in AC - the fast drivers are hitting apexes, managing tire heat, setting their cars to fit the track, etc. driving with the assists off to get a faster lap.

That's a very good point. This was one of my biggest frustrations with the F1 series. The fastest guys on the leaderboards weren't actually the best drivers, they just exploited loopholes in the game. Like cutting corners, and spamming the downshifter, instead of using brakes.

I'm so glad AC does not accommodate these types of drivers!

 

[Kristóf Kerekes]

The setups are pretty damn realistic so far, at least the ones that hotlaps are done with. Until there is an exploit with an unreal camber value or even toe, which usually bugs the sim games, then I wouldn't worry much about realism. The cars drive great, I'm totally sure of that.

 

[Mr Whippy]

I think sim racing needs competitive elements.

GT5 is great because the cars all feel roughly right, but they are also fun to go drive with friends in leagues etc... even though you know it's not fully accurate and a true sim.

But does AC really move the physics on beyond GT5 that much for example?

Tyres probably yes... more suspension customisation probably yes, but are any single specific cars actually truly accurate to the real cars?

So far I'm unconvinced on that point given what I've seen which is quite sad given the opportunity to do them right (access to real cars etc, apparently)

Dave

 

[Kristóf Kerekes]

You didn't say anything specific on that case, really. Which car is in your mind? I'm just rolling my eyes all over, reading a post that claims AC to be just a BIT more realistic than GT5. How can you call cars in AC unconvincing if GT5's physics satisfy you? By the way, polyphony also had access to every cars put into the game, Gran Turismo is famous for being the first to actually model car physics after driving them irl and collecting data.

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

Some things to think about:

If you find AC to easy to drive, your not driving fast enough!

How many people wreck there race car in real life vs how many people "die" in a sim crash.

 

[Maplewalnut]

I think we're all assuming that AC in it's current state is what the game will be...meanwhile it's still in early beta...

 

[Leemstradamus]

Honestly on everyone of these threads we get the same argument. We really need to focus on other things, like the viability of the company. We knit pick everything with the expectation that all of our wants need to be addressed with super human speed. Imo a few things are overlooked. One the team is extremely small by modern standards. This is a positive in my eyes with a little downside. Because the team is so small they are able to take in our feedback and emplement it quickly. The other side is they have to prioritize every aspect of development, to get the initial product to market. The second point is we are way to spioled and demanding as a very nich group. The constant complaining and demanding of them, with a $60 limit to the game is nuts. Like stated before. if everyone from i(ce)Racing bought this title, KS would go broke. Throw out the stupid sales cap and I bet we would be able to get more of our nich demands met.

 

[Mr Whippy]

KS's business model is up to them.

I judge AC on what they are selling us. Very little has been mentioned at all about what they are offering in AC, except that it's a car simulator of a very high standard.

It's probably a pretty good car simulator. But are the values they are throwing in realistic?

We just got an MP4 12C in AC, but we all know it uses a suspension system completely different to any other AC car.
How have they even approached it?

So far from what I've seen the physics model can't cover a lot of the things modern cars need and use, and where they can copy reality the values are not even looking that correct either.


I don't think it's nit picking to call KS on features in AC that are meant to be it's whole reason for existing, being a high end simulator rather than a simcade racer like NFS Shift or something.


Unless I'm wrong. Is AC meant to be something like Shift 2? From what I gathered from the hype it was meant to blow my brain with amazing physics and simulation capabilities and super accurate reproductions of real cars from top to bottom (physics to visuals)

Dave

 

[LazyBug]

Unless I'm wrong. Is AC meant to be something like Shift 2? From what I gathered from the hype it was meant to blow my brain with amazing physics and simulation capabilities and super accurate reproductions of real cars from top to bottom (physics to visuals)
Dave

I like to ask a question if you dont mind, do you own all these car thats available in AC and if you do own all this cars then did you really able to drive all these cars well & quick enough ??

 

[Kristóf Kerekes]

Exactly the same reaction from me, as last time. You are calling stuff on AC without saying anything specific. You mentioned the car, you mentioned the part of it. Cool, but I guess you have the data for AC to improve it for the better. You also probably know how the car handles in real life, that's why it feels wrong to you. Also, even if that one car handles very wrong (which is not really the case, as every feedback and comparision to reviews say that it handles pretty much the same in all situations) then why does it make the whole game a simcade? What about the rest of the 10-12 cars around? They are all pretty neat on the track.

Setting a high standard like AC did makes people complain more about the game itself, but most of us who know what the Early Access part of the title means will only know how awesome this simulation be when it finally reaches 1.0. I suggest you driving some iRacing, rFactor or whatever comes to your mind, if you can't bare the game being in a non-final release state, other than blaming the game's physics without any specification.

 

[Requiem84]

Mr Hmmm Whippy, it is ironic you don't realise this topic is specifically about people like you .

 

[Jempy]

Judgements and criticisms are very easy to do .... building and improving such a simulation is less easy.
That's here the kind of topic ... I'm bored to read.

Rather than say "no or not correct or ...???" ... give advice of how to do !... not how it should be or shouldn't be.

 

[Mr Whippy]

I like to ask a question if you dont mind, do you own all these car thats available in AC and if you do own all this cars then did you really able to drive all these cars well & quick enough ??

I don't own any of these cars. But that is irrelevant. Cars are a function of the engineering, and I know the cars in question are not recreated in enough detail to make them react nicely for a simulation. Well not a genuinely good one any way.


I don't know for sure because KS are telling us nothing... but educated guesses are offered in all my posts. Just no one seems to want to read them without seeing the negative.


But so far it looks like linear kinematics. No multi-body physics.

That alone limits realism because almost all suspensions are only 'ideally' linear over a very short range of their suspension. Great for race cars, but not so good for soggy road cars.

The F458 has about -1deg camber static, at the bump stops about -6deg camber front and rear. That is a HUGE amount of camber gain.
The wishbone geometry would have to look rather bizarre to allow that, and the roll centre would move around by very large amounts too. I honestly do not believe the real Ferrari has such dramatic camber change under bump. A few degrees perhaps, but -5deg of camber from static length to the bump stops?

But no apparent toe change at all under the same stroke of the suspension?


The F458 also uses an e-diff integrated with the ESP and TCS systems. The physics files I've seen show the F458 currently using a braking type differential overlay on top of a limited slip differential.
There is no dynamics limited slip variables referencing anything. Just a system to brake wheels that are spinning. That isn't how the F458 e-diff works at all. It's more like a dynamic M-diff controlled in different ways depending on the Manettino setting.


There are loads of ways KS can improve AC. Tell us what they have done and haven't done, and then we can decide what is important to us to be simulated or not.

Right now they have just thrown a load of cars into a game with nice visuals and sounds but for me it may as well be driving a GTA5 car. It looks like a real car, sounds like a real car, but is it really driving like the car they say it is? Or is it just about right on paper figures but nothing else?


I'm sure for example the 12C McLaren isn't using a special adaptive suspension system as per real life. It's just a springs/dampers approximation.
For one of the most innovative applications of a suspension technology in real life, in AC it comes down to a set of linear spring rates and a few static damper values?

Nice.


AC *should* be beyond criticism. I want it to be. But it seems that KS just want AC to be a simcade game. It's a very good one, but in the end if they are not getting cars copied to the best of their ability and what we know is reasonably possible with some effort, then why not just play GT5 or some other such game?


If I spend 1hr driving the F458 or 12C in AC, I want to know it's the closest I'll get to driving the real thing. Not just driving the best approximation that KS could come up with by doing finger in the air decisions on things like camber kinematics and static differential braking coefficient tweaking.

Dave

 

[Kristóf Kerekes]

Your past post didn't contain informations like that, finally you raised up to a level, where you actually say something useful to the developers othen than just "naysaying". The comparision to GTA5 or GT5 is still harsh though.

 

[LazyBug]

I not a simracer but from what i observe there are at least 3 common type of "hardcore simracer".

1. Some who invest alot of $$$ in all type of equipment such as wheel / pedal / H-shifter / 3-monitor cockpit setup / racing seat n many other expensive stuffs for the game. They consider themselve "HARDCORE" merely because they spend alot of $$$ on it but in fact they dont have real life Professional racing experience & often off pace in game.
2. Some who only play sim racing game for a very long time say at least 10 years, they might only have wheel & pedal but they only play sim racing & play for a very long time, they consider themselve "HARDCORE" merely because they dont play any other racing genre (simcade / arcade) & already spend lot of time on the game but again they dont have real life Professional racing experience & often off pace in game .
3. A combine of 1 & 2 who has lot of $$$ to spend on equipment & play sim for a very long time without real life Professional racing experience.

I believe these 3 type of "hardcore" is who we normally chat or meet in every sim racing forum, the real hardcore who really good & fast (not average fast but always among the top of any leaderboard & often get excellent result in any online major league type of fast) normally wont be here, so it look very funny to me seeing the common hardcore who usually is the one has doubt or complain about this or that without solid reason while the real hardcore seldom show up to complain about the same thing. I believe that mean something.

I have some friends who has very terrible stupid parent who scold or punish them for not score 100% in some subject while they already do a very good 99%. This sound very sick & crazy but it does happen, one of my not so close friend even gone crazy cause of that & need medical attention for a while, and now i see the same thing is happening here as well

I forget where i read this from but i like this alot, in english it should sound something like this -- "Life always much more beautiful if we expect lesser, always expect 100% from everything will make the already crazy tough life even tougher & that always lead to disaster/destruction"

God bless

 

[LazyBug]

If I spend 1hr driving the F458 or 12C in AC, I want to know it's the closest I'll get to driving the real thing. Not just driving the best approximation that KS could come up with by doing finger in the air decisions on things like camber kinematics and static differential braking coefficient tweaking.

Dave

Ic. Looks like you do know something about these car, respect (assume all the info you mention is correct)
By the way i always have doubt if any sim racing game can give me the 100% exact experience driving the same car in game compare to real life, to me its quite impossible no matter what because you react to everything in the game after the wheel alone give you the signal (FFB) but i dont think it work the same way in real life. I mean in real life even your passenger who apparently not holding the wheel know when the car is going to lost control / spin and that means something. If you always rely on wheel feedback before you react driving in real life then you should be a dead man now if you do drive

I believe that also explain why a pro racer say Lewis Hamilton can lost to some sim racer while they competing in a sim game, a pro racer use to drive and get all the information from everywhere of the car & their body but sim racer use to get all the information from a wheel alone.

So, expect any sim racing game provide some real life racing experience is quite unrealistic, at least to me.

 

[Stuart Whitehead]

. But it seems that KS just want AC to be a simcade game.

*insert facepalm meme of choice here*

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

I don't know for sure because KS are telling us nothing... but educated guesses are offered in all my posts. Just no one seems to want to read them without seeing the negative.

I'd like to see more information about the physics as well, so far it has been very limited. This is among the only posts that has gone a bit deeper below the surface explaining the tire model. Anyway, I expect this to improve at some point since the basics of the physics engine needs to be understood in order to create good mods for the title. So far all the physics files in AC seem to be encrypted, I presume in order to protect the car manufacturer data.

 

[Tomas Torasen]

Why not just ban the words "sim" and "arcade" alltogether and get on with the discussion. It just gets off into elitism and my opinion is more valid than yours. I cant count how many times I've seen it.

As for what the words mean, even the most arcadish game is a simulation of something resembling reality, to fuel ones imagination and create a narrative where your mind will enjoy/get pleasure out of "playing" it.
I would also agree the most hardcore simulator, would defenitely need some bling bling that would by some be called arcadish, to appeal to some sort of profitable target group of buyers.
The term simcade would only be used to offend and create aggitation I believe.

For me it's much more about immersion, what the game makes me feel. I want connection, for my personal taste netKar is the most amazing thing in that department. AC is not really there yet, although the oldest BMW is pretty awesome already.