Are simracers the biggest naysayers in the world?

[Joco Gorenc]

OK so I noticed so many topics, specially on AC forums about the sim having too much traction etc... For example a guy that drove a real xbow but at golf cart speed and on a damp track saying the AC xbow has too much traction when stepping on throttle. So he compares two very different conditions and you see all this discussion going on without anybody having actually tested the exact same car(from tires, setup etc...) and same track conditions. I have done many track days with a Rotax max kart and I tell you even if there are litlerally few drops of rain on track it changes traction dramatically(even more so in a car).

Not trying to be a fanboy but netkar for me always was a different kind of sim, on another level from anything else(with some minor faults ofcourse in physics of some cars). AC I think is now really the peak of what they could achieve with their current knowledge and also computing capabilities of our PCs. The latter is important and extremely tricky as developers have to make simplifications of some physics coding for normal PCs to support.

Im just saying we should enjoy what Kunos brought to us so far. Doubting is healthy ofcourse but too much is too much. If you do it, at least have some real experiances and proof before making a 10 page topic of how easy the sim is while youre several seconds off pace.

My 0,02$

 

[Chris]

Assetto Corsa is the first proper sim that I've owned so I'm not sure how valid my opinion is, but, I feel two things should be said:

1) Haven't Kunos tried to replicate the physics of each car by actually going out and driving them for themselves? I mean their R&D office is at the Mugello track!
Also they're getting feedback from professional racing drivers, and people who happen to own particular cars, on how the cars handle in specific situations etc.

2) Let's not forget that this game is still essentially in its BETA phase (Which is crazy, considering it was planned to be fully released several months ago ). So I can almost certainly say that improvements will be made to the physics of the cars. Kunos seem pretty committed, more so than 99% of other gaming companies. And they're only a small company, so in time, improvements will come.

I think those are two pretty good reasons to be optimistic.

 

[Si3v]

But AFAIK this is not the canned ffb yet in AC(simulating only real steering feedback at the moment), so I think were in for a big surprise regarding FFB soon. I hope they release canned, full FFB soon(trademark).

What?

 

[LazyBug]

To be honest every sim racer love to have 100% perfect sim but every sim racing developer has to compromise a little this or that for a better sales thus better $$ reward for the company. What good is that if a game has 101% perfect real life physic but only a few expert & pro sim racer who willing to buy & play ??

To me i dont even care if Ac is not full sim racing, as long as AC is somewhere like 90 sim with 10 arcade then i already very fine with that.

Beside i not sure why people always looking for a perfect sim, personally i dont think all that momentum / force that we have thru the wheel & the car & environment when driving in real life can 100% perfectly replicate just like that by wheel alone playing the game. I mean when i drift or power slide in a game i never feel the force that throw my body to opposite direction, i never feel the force to make me almost head knock the wheel when i do heavy braking, i never feel the force that make me so danm stick to my seat when i do heavy throttle in 1st gear, i believe all these force / momentum are important too but in game its the wheel alone that give me the info about everything that i need to know, am i pushing too hard thru a corner ?? Am i braking too much ?? Is my trail braking ok ?? How is my rear tyre doing ?? Is my tyre pressure ok ?? All these have to guess or feel thru a wheel so how perfect can a sim game be in this case ?? Even those full motion racing simulator rig cant give 100% real life momentum when making heavy braking / drift / power slide regardless how expensive are those thing.

To me, the one & only perfect simulation is to drive a real car, a game will always just a game, may be someday we can have 100% perfect sim but i dont think its will be anytime soon, yeah someday, may be

 

[Kristóf Kerekes]

(Which is crazy, considering it was planned to be fully released several months ago ).

I'm still happy though that it avoided the LFS-syndrome and still does so by making a patch every 2 weeks, scheduled, despite the zombie apocalypse or anything. Oh well, LFS is yet to be released in early 2009, still. I'm waiting for that too, just in case.

 

[vee10]

In answer to the original question. Yes we appear to be bunch of spoilt brats. Even when something is great there is always something to moan about. But you could level that accusation at most people and most situations these days. We should embrace and enjoy the fact we have something like AC available and just let it grow into the awesome product it can and i'm sure will be.

If you had to listen to the audio of the engines in GT6 for instance then i could forgive some moaning.

 

[Dinca Andrei]

But AFAIK this is not the canned ffb yet in AC(simulating only real steering feedback at the moment), so I think were in for a big surprise regarding FFB soon. I hope they release canned, full FFB soon(trademark).

The update was already done...you have the settings for enhached FFB effects...much more than it was requested by people...so everyone can be happy hehehe...
You can set it that the wheel will trow you all over the place...no need for motion actuators lol...KS kept his word and really made it...Maybe with a full rig with motion and stuff,this enhached FFB will be set to 0....

 

[Joco Gorenc]

Oh OK, well I thought this wasnt everything yet. I mean the FFB is the best out there, but its just not as responsive as in nKPro

 

[Joco Gorenc]

To be honest every sim racer love to have 100% perfect sim but every sim racing developer has to compromise a little this or that for a better sales thus better $$ reward for the company. What good is that if a game has 101% perfect real life physic but only a few expert & pro sim racer who willing to buy & play ??

To me i dont even care if Ac is not full sim racing, as long as AC is somewhere like 90 sim with 10 arcade then i already very fine with that.

Seems like we have many 120% sims too(cough, iracing, cough)

I dont think developers need to dumb down physics and make it easier to get better sales. Thats a really dumb move to make(if youre a sim developer with full realism as a goal), there can just be driving assists to help the newbies like it is in AC.

Why would Kunos throw away 15 years of study and hard work to maybe get a few more sales? Thats crazy!

 

[LazyBug]

Ok to make it simple lets 1st compare the sales between Race 07 & NFS Most Wanted 2012 provide by VGchartz.com --

So a 6 years old very good sim racing game beaten by a so call shitty arcade racing game which release only 1 year with big margin, that mean something. Like my father say even a game or a toy is a business, its all about making money, we can always dream for all kind of perfect thing but developer has to always find a balance between dream & reality. They dont just make any product for fun, they actually have to find a way to survive in case someone dont know.

I dont think only Kunos can make good sim racing game, at least Game Stock Car 2013 by Reiza Studio also another very good sim & i believe even EA or Codemaster can do that if they want to but can anyone tell me how good is GSC 2013 sales even the game only cost USD 29.99 ?? The fact is that the game or Reiza Studio not even in the list of this VGchartz.com. Also how is the sale of the nK-pro ??

Also try compare the sales between combat simulator 1st person shooter Arma series with arcade-like run & shoot Call of Duty & BattleField series, again we'll see another extremely big margin different. That mean something as well.

Its also the same if we compare the art movie like "The Pianist" with a commercial action movie like "Fast & Furious 6". Check this out --
The Pianist - Rating 8.5/10 IMDB - Opening Weekend $115,690
Fast & Furious 6 - Rating 7.2/10 IMDB - Opening Weekend $ 97,375,245

So again, its always a matter finding balance between making a high rating sim racing game but very less people to play or make a lower rating sim racing but lot more people to play, it is just a game for people like us but its a question of life or death for any game developer in case someone dont know.
Nowaday even most charity is a business which give now and take back something later so it make no sense to expect a game developer will do something very extreme to please just some very few people but kill their own company later due to losing so much money for the game.

Thats it, i hope my english is at least understandable

 

[Slawomir Judek]

so it make no sense to expect a game developer will do something very extreme to please just some very few people but kill their own company later due to losing so much money for the game.

They can add features for both the arcade players, "midsimracers" and hardcore simracers and everybody would be happy. And they'd earn more because more people would buy it. Again, I'm not talking about the full game in which direction it should go but about features a game has.

 

[Kevin Ascher]

To be honest a good racing game should always try its best to find a balance between fun vs reality driving .. i mean a racing game which is 100% perfect reality sim actually harm sales, because game like that will be too difficult for 90% of player to play since 90% of player actually cant drive well (include me )

The 90% can perfectly play simcade titles like GT6 or Forza 5. Making compromises with the physics to make the game easier, would kill it for true simmers!

 

[LazyBug]

They can add features for both the arcade players, "midsimracers" and hardcore simracers and everybody would be happy. And they'd earn more because more people would buy it. Again, I'm not talking about the full game in which direction it should go but about features a game has.

I dont think really that simple otherwise every racing game developer already do that. At least i will not happy playing in full sim mode using a wheel get beaten in term of lap time by a noob arcade player using just a keyboard playing the exactly same game in arcade mode

 

[Jempy]

As long as the true simmer may find his pleasure and realism with a perfect difficulty and besides, there are enough possible aids ( to enable or disable ) in the game for the less experimented drivers, it will offer all possible compromises for those who need them.

A well balanced game, which might offer big, mid and low difficulty will sell easier than a pure harcore game. Sales are mandatory for a society for its survival.

 

[Rui Santos]

When referring to movies, games or music it's clear that the majority of people in the world likes ****, that's a fact unfortunately...

 

[LazyBug]

When referring to movies, games or music it's clear that the majority of people in the world likes ****, that's a fact unfortunately...

Thats why even a so call full sim racing game force to have a little bit arcade in there trying to attract a little bit more fans who originally not hardcore sim racer. At the end of the day this is a game, not Formula One training simulator.

Pool & snooker is similar if we talk about cue sport but there also some similar reason why pool is much more popular than snooker all over the world

 

[Rui Santos]

Thats why even a so call full sim racing game force to have a little bit arcade in there trying to attract a little bit more fans who originally not hardcore sim racer. At the end of the day this is a game, not Formula One training simulator.

Pool & snooker is similar if we talk about cue sport but there also some similar reason why pool is much more popular than snooker all over the world

I think you didn't get the point, there are good and bad games, good and bad music álbums, good and bad movies, normally the worse ones or those ones "made for masses" have a lot more success wich doesn't mean they're better.

Also i totally disagree with you when you say that a simracing "game" need to have an arcade side, NO IT DOESN'T, if it's a sim it's a sim, you can make it easier eventually to drive with some aids, but the "simulator" hard core physics and other stuff are there allways present. That's why you have rFactor, rFactor2, AC, NetKar Pro, etçª and on the other "arcadish" side you have Gran Turismo, Forza, Need for Speed etçª, it's up to you to decide in wich one you are.

 

[LazyBug]

I think you didn't get the point, there are good and bad games, good and bad music álbums, good and bad movies, normally the worse ones or those ones "made for masses" have a lot more success wich doesn't mean they're better.

Also i totally disagree with you when you say that a simracing "game" need to have an arcade side, NO IT DOESN'T, if it's a sim it's a sim, you can make it easier eventually to drive with some aids, but the "simulator" hard core physics and other stuff are there allways present. That's why you have rFactor, rFactor2, AC, NetKar Pro, etçª and on the other "arcadish" side you have Gran Turismo, Forza, Need for Speed etçª, it's up to you to decide in wich side you are.

Since when i say a lot more success product mean they're better ?? I say you the one didnt get my point.

I not saying Kunos actually has & purposely do some arcade thing on AC but i wont complain at all if they really do that because usually the more hardcore a racing game the more harder the company to keep survive. Even Iracing has only 45,000 member worldwide after initial release at 2008, say all Iracing member buy AC so 45,000 x USD60 = USD2,700,000, thats gross profit * i guess net profit wont more than 50% of that. You only thinking about what you want but game company need to think lot more than that to make sure they at least not losing money.

There are actually very few hardcore sim racer at least in this planet compare to simcade & arcade, so either they increase the game price to something like USD120 or even USD180 or USD270 to make more profit from a small group of player (which i believe you will be the very first one to complain & refuse to buy the game) or they might purposely leave something just a little bit arcade here & there trying to get some other type of player other than the existing hardcore sim racer. Again i not saying they doing that, i saying its very make sense in case they do that.

Finally, i rather to enjoy this game as how it is since this game already quite ok than keep on thinking something like "Oh this game not sim enough" kind of silly stuffs especially the game is still updating

 

[LazyBug]

By the way all i trying to say after all that bullsit is that why not we give company like Kunos which making good sim racing game a break, I believe any hardcore sim racing game require 10x hard work & resources to get the job done compare to simcade/arcade game but still cost only USD60, example NFS Rivals dont need to have laser scan track to please their player & i dont think F1 2013 offer laser scan either, do they ??
So unless we all agree to pay USD600 for any hardcore sim or else why not just enjoy the game as how it is rather than spend all the time trying to find any little mistake just to show that one is more "sim" or "hardcore" than other

 

[Richard Eriksson]

In reality you seldom feel slides that much (initially) in the wheel, you feel it with your body (balance sense). So it's accurate, that you would only feel a small effect as you enter a slide, it's only when you steer against it, that you would feel it by the wheel basically...

For reality discussions, i would agree with John-Eric, sacrificing reality for fun is not appealing to me as a simulation enthusiast.

 

[Richard Eriksson]

Also, as a long time member of the ARMA community i can put my rationale to use on other things than racesim as well. This divide has been in the milsim community since the early days of ofp as the first real combined arms realtime milsim... Now wih ARMA 3 the discussion seen above repeats in that community as well. Many new to the genre putting the sim down as "not fluid" or "hard to aim" or just "too demanding", refereing to Battlefield 3/4 as their idea of realistic fun...

And my answer is the same in those discussions, i find it fine o like if you do, but it is not for me.

For instance, i can not run ARMA2 outside of our closed community server, with our real life organized squad for coop. With ace and acre for realistic movement, fatigue, weaponry and radio comms (like the radio cutting out due to map topography)... This is what i want. Realism.

Same reason i do DCS and IL2 flight simming, and not Tom Clancys HawX or Ace Combat.

I want the real deal, and i invest in hardware and software to get it.

Also, i think it has to do with an urge from my side to have depth. I need the additional depth to enjoy it. For instance, a regular shooter with some tacky fps storyline written for 14 year olds feels tacky and dull to me.

So it is not just simracers... It happens everywhere there is a deeper product enjoyed by a niche group. They will defend their love of it, and look down on trying to alter it...