Amp for tactile Transducers

[jfh123@yahoo.com]

Hi, My Reckhorn Amp has died. What Amp (in UK) should I be looking at to drive 4 transducers (
Reckhorn BS-200i Bass Shaker?). DIY (non buttkicker) would suit me best. Any suggestions? Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Darn, are you seriously still using Simvibe?

One good reason you are not feeling much stereo is that most of Simvibes effects operate more in a mono fashion. I think Suspension Bumps was its main stereo effect.

With Simhub you can not only have multiple stereo effects but you can set any effect to any channel you want. It is not restricted like Simvibe in that it used a fixed CM or EM operation mode for a soundcard. No sir, now you can also use all 6 channels on a 5.1 card with Simhub Shakeit.

So you dont need any more soundcards but you will need more amps to power additional transducers.
Its worth investing some time trying it out and donating to its developer.

Just downloaded and donated for a license.
Surprised how much better SimHub works comparing to SimVibe. More user friendly and easier to get into.
I feel SimXperience is losing a lot of customers because of how over-engineered their approach is in comparison.
Big thanks for the recommendation, should have tried it earlier.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Agree 100% about SimVibe vs SimHub.

I've enjoyed my experience with SimHub and have gotten it to work well for me. For some reason SimVibe always seemed to be a pain to work with. I had technical issues just getting it to just work and the last time I was having trouble getting it to work, I tried SimHub instead and it immediately worked. Since I switched over SimHub has been upgraded substantially.

Initially I felt like SimVibe had better features than SimHub, but now I feel the reverse is true. SimHub has both advanced quite a bit and is much less restrictive. SimVibe's two modes of operation restricting what you could do with a single audio card is very short sighted and tries to push you down a path. SimHub lets you do anything you want.

 

[Mr Latte]

So I did a bit more research and plenty of looking....

Scenario
What is the best suited and most affordable amp we can find for powering Buttkickers? As Behringers NXD series seems rather expensive in USA or other regions (is good price in UK) what can we find as an alternative.

Buttkicker 4ohm models.

BK Mini
BK Advance
BK LFE

Also with good controls and an amp that supports 300watt but importantly also features not just a fixed but manually adjustable crossover from 40Hz-300Hz. Using a mild -12dB slope of bass attenuation.

I believe this is a great option from Douk Audio (Nobsound) with excellent features
* Using TPA3255D2 amp chip equipped with 32V/5A large power supply, is enough to drive 320W subs/speakers

Nobsound G2PRO

Easily available worldwide on Amazon or Ebay the price is rather amazing too.
Amazon UK
Amazon.com


It will certainly power the medium sized BK Advance okay and I still think as Shakeit has a high energy output we may find it also okay for the largest BK LFE units. This would need to be tested and confirmed.

 

[Elaphe]

Darn, are you seriously still using Simvibe?

One good reason you are not feeling much stereo is that most of Simvibes effects operate more in a mono fashion. I think Suspension Bumps was its main stereo effect.

With Simhub you can not only have multiple stereo effects but you can set any effect to any channel you want. It is not restricted like Simvibe in that it used a fixed CM or EM operation mode for a soundcard. No sir, now you can also use all 6 channels on a 5.1 card with Simhub Shakeit.

So you dont need any more soundcards but you will need more amps to power additional transducers.
Its worth investing some time trying it out and donating to its developer.

Yes. I never liked SimHub too much. I’ve used it for my dashboard monitor, but since I upgraded to VR, I removed my dashboard monitor and uninstalled Simhub. It was a relief because I feel that it has become too big, too slow and too resource hungry with the latests releases. Also, I find it too complex, obscure and confusing for things that should be simple. For instance, I asked for help about how to use it to control my fans for a wind sim and the only answer was to buy an Arduino, learn programming and study the program. So, instead I bought the PCB by Simprojects, intalled the tiny utility called Simdash and everything worked without any hassle. As regards shakers, Simvibe does the job and it's straightforward. I can't complain about it. OK, it's a bit expensive, but you get what you pay for.

 

[bassun]

So I did a bit more research and plenty of looking....

Scenario
What is the best suited and most affordable amp we can find for powering Buttkickers? As Behringers NXD series seems rather expensive in USA or other regions (is good price in UK) what can we find as an alternative.

Buttkicker 4ohm models.

BK Mini
BK Advance
BK LFE

Also with good controls and an amp that supports 300watt but importantly also features not just a fixed but manually adjustable crossover from 40Hz-300Hz. Using a mild -12dB slope of bass attenuation.

I believe this is a great option from Douk Audio (Nobsound) with excellent features
* Using TPA3255D2 amp chip equipped with 32V/5A large power supply, is enough to drive 320W subs/speakers

Nobsound G2PRO

Easily available worldwide on Amazon or Ebay the price is rather amazing too.
Amazon UK
Amazon.com


It will certainly power the medium sized BK Advance okay and I still think as Shakeit has a high energy output we may find it also okay for the largest BK LFE units. This would need to be tested and confirmed.

If you can live without the crossover, the Nobsound 20G drives a BK mini fine (Probably 4, but certainly 2)...but I agree, having a crossover would be a benefit if you are trying for the lower ranges. I was actually really surprised at some of the frequency peaks on the BKMini I have. Off the top of my head, one of the highest "useful" was like 118hz with no crossover and tested from a tone generator.

I had not looked into the G2Pro -- If I can ever land a BK LFE at a good price, I may have to try that little guy out. But I think there may be a bit of a let down. It's rated at 300W @ 2 Ohm. I think you would see this unit underpowering the LFE as it would only be pushing around 150 watts if my math is right. The BKA and Mini should not be a problem - even powering multiples (wired appropriately).

 

[RCHeliguy]

The good news is that my NX4-6000 arrived early and if this was a demo unit, they were amazingly careful repackaging it because it had a never tampered with plastic bag around it with desiccant package. Manual also in plastic never opened and the box looked like it only had original never cut tape on it. The plastic peel away protection for the display was still on. Absolutely looks like a new in box item.

The bad news is that while my XLR to 1/8" stereo plug cables work well, the output side requires a professional twist on connector and my 1/4" jacks for the speakers won't fit. So I have to wait until Saturday to try it out. I ordered a 10 pack of Speakon 2 pole connectors for $14. No telling if I'll ever go hog wild with this stuff.

 

[Mr Latte]

If you can live without the crossover, the Nobsound 20G drives a BK mini fine (Probably 4, but certainly 2)...but I agree, having a crossover would be a benefit if you are trying for the lower ranges. I was actually really surprised at some of the frequency peaks on the BKMini I have. Off the top of my head, one of the highest "useful" was like 118hz with no crossover and tested from a tone generator.

I had not looked into the G2Pro -- If I can ever land a BK LFE at a good price, I may have to try that little guy out. But I think there may be a bit of a let down. It's rated at 300W @ 2 Ohm. I think you would see this unit underpowering the LFE as it would only be pushing around 150 watts if my math is right. The BKA and Mini should not be a problem - even powering multiples (wired appropriately).

Yes it may be rated at 2 ohms and perhaps it would be better suited to the BK Concert with it being a 2ohm unit.

So what I am going to highlight, is 2x BK Concert Buttkickers (2ohm) being powered by an iNuke DSP 1000 and the amp is configured via its DSP controls to reduce its output for 300w per channel at the 2ohm resistance.


I will give it a try this afternoon.


Based on what Buttkicker recommend it should not even operate.

From Buttkickers own website:
"ButtKicker Concert requires a minimum of 400 watts and we recommend a maximum of 1500 watts"

Update:
I will do continued testing but with using the settings above and having no additional input gain on the amplifer applied. I get nice enough strength from effects with only 5 clicks past the 12oclock position on the amps front dials. So the amp is not even close to its max output and this with the cheapest model from the series also being limited to 300w.

I have done this in the past with the LFE models operating via an iNuke 1000 DSP amp seemingly okay. What I found was that BK's recommended settings are it seems (quite badly off)

As what really is required in minimum wattage is much less. To further check this, I then used only "game audio" based tactile and had the volume output from the sound card between 0dB and +1dB


Here is a capture from the Aston Martin V8 Vantage (its got nice tactile engine/feel)

Judging by this it's possible the G2Pro could power a single large BK Concert
I will do longer running tests with the two BK Concert on this iNuke 1000 DSP to see if it causes any issues with the amp and report back.

Update2
Okay something is just weird with the Behringer wattage peak-limiter
I set it to 200w, then 100w and even 50w and it's still driving the BK Concerts.
So this does not seem a full-proof method to testing wattage output the amp is actually sending.

Scratching my head as this is maybe not ideal way to determine wattages for other amps. What I can say for certain is that the 1000 series Behringer amps seem fine running the largest BK units with more than enough volume. So 3000 series which costs a bit more or even 6000 series, while some will want for additional headroom is maybe not even necessarily needed but good to have.

(I've now gathered up 5x 3000 4x1000 and 1x6000 models)

 

[Mr Latte]

Update 3
Okay I think I have had some weird issue with all the extra hardware routing I am doing and have been messing about with settings getting used to this digital mixer I am using as well. What (I assume) was happening was with how the HA6000's were being used.

It was doubling up the left/right channels increasing the output being routed to the digital mixer and then being forwarded to the amps making the output dramatically intensified.

This evening re-looking into settings I have it appears things working more normal with the 1000DSP amp,
So at this stage, I need to relook into this again, checking the peak/wattage feature and see if I get a more expected result this time and when I know I have all this extra hardware 100% configured.

I will come back and re-do tests in the next few days..

 

[bassun]

It would be fantastic news for a lot of people if the G2 can handle things! Hopefully your testing lends credence to the over spec'd BK. It may even be interesting to see how it responds with the 1000DSP set at 2ohm, and 300watts vs 4ohm 150 watts. My gut (and based purely on speculation) is that it will drive harder at the 2/300 setting.

I would offer a shade of caution however. As you know, speakers do not like being under-powered. I'm sure you have the capacity to and will watch things like a hawk during your testing... I'd just hate to see you burn up an LFE testing something for everyone else.

 

[Mr Latte]

I believe the min wattage ratings are based on the weights of the pistons in each unit.
Also to avoid people using any of their other amps to try and drive their largest models. So the old BK2 amps and the BK Advance amp on paper fall well short of the specs given.

A BK unlike, say a TST or a typical speaker/based transducer needs a certain amount of wattage before it can physically move the piston to generate feedback while other units will produce activity from a few watts.

Do keep in mind between the soundcard and the amp we can use something like a mixer to increase the gain level that goes into the amp. So in scenarios like this we can help the amp require fewer watts to drive the units it is powering sufficiently as the signal it has to amplify is already pre-amplified in gain level. This is similar to amps that have "input trim" features like an AV Reciever to then balance the level of input from various sources (Radio/CD/DVD/Satellite) which would then let the user keep the master volume level across all source appear the same.

In the UK the G2 PRO would be a cheap way to power (potentially) a single large BK. A unit would need to be bought and tested. Amazon return perhaps but it is hard finding amps better/cheaper than the Behringer models.

Yes you are correct that this would possibly favour pairing with the 2ohm Concret model as the amp is rated at 2ohm. The only drawback is that you would need 2 for powering eventually dual large BK. If buying two of those amps eventually, then a user is still better off buying a NX1000D as it will power the 2 units and has the benefits of the DSP features for tuning and getting much more from the low bass frequencies than a standard amp can.

This G2PRO would certainly be okay with a BK Advance as the official amp for it was only 300w @2ohm.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I did some testing.

I can go about 8 Hz lower in SimHub with the NX4-6000 and get good effects, but I wouldn't say that the effects actually feel different 8 Hz lower. What is more noticeable is that my transducers seem to run quieter. I'm not sure if that was because I was pushing my DIY amp too hard and it was clipping or because it has worse distortion characteristics at higher volumes and the NX4-6000 isn't breaking a sweat. I can't hear this noise when I have my VR headset on, so it is more of an observation than anything that impacted me.

So I wouldn't suggest rushing out and replacing your DIY amplifier especially if you are happy with it.

The NX4-6000 can push harder and the Aura's seem to be able to take it. In general speakers can handle clean power at higher volumes without any detriment than they can volumes with clipping. I can only assume the same holds true for transducers.

The NX4-6000 looks better, can drive harder and I'm going to guess do less damage to transducers at higher levels than running a DIY amp near its limits because of clipping.

I haven't tried the switch in back which has a full range mode that I'm using now and a low range mode that has some kind of high pass filter limiting the output to be < 100Hz.

 

[Mr Latte]

Looks good.

The crossover filter will reduce the harmonics and the operating noise of the units, it might even help them perform a tad better as you are removing frequencies above what the unit generally will produce vibrations with.

Use the High Cut mode.

Aura Pro is only rated for normal usage of 50w so take care with that monster amp not to push them too hard.

Some budget amps have 10% distortion which is quite a lot and will be a factor at higher volumes.
The SMSL 160w model is an example.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Looks good.

The crossover filter will reduce the harmonics and the operating noise of the units, it might even help them perform a tad better as you are removing frequencies above what the unit generally will produce vibrations with.

Use the High Cut mode.

Aura Pro is only rated for normal usage of 50w so take care with that monster amp not to push them too hard.

And what might happen if I burn one up ...

Speaking of which. A BK LFE is 4ohms, and a BK Concert is 2ohms and also works well at "somewhat" higher frequencies. They are priced the same and take the same wattage, but the NX4-6000 can supply twice as much power to the Concert at 2 ohms as the LFE at 4 ohms. I would just need to make sure I had at least 12ga wire for the Concerts. Currently I'm only running 16ga wire.

Thoughts?

 

[bassun]

I believe the min wattage ratings are based on the weights of the pistons in each unit.
Also to avoid people using any of their other amps to try and drive their largest models. So the old BK2 amps and the BK Advance amp on paper fall well short of the specs given.

A BK unlike, say a TST or a typical speaker/based transducer needs a certain amount of wattage before it can physically move the piston to generate feedback while other units will produce activity from a few watts.

Do keep in mind between the soundcard and the amp we can use something like a mixer to increase the gain level that goes into the amp. So in scenarios like this we can help the amp require fewer watts to drive the units it is powering sufficiently as the signal it has to amplify is already pre-amplified in gain level. This is similar to amps that have "input trim" features like an AV Reciever to then balance the level of input from various sources (Radio/CD/DVD/Satellite) which would then let the user keep the master volume level across all source appear the same.

In the UK the G2 PRO would be a cheap way to power (potentially) a single large BK. A unit would need to be bought and tested. Amazon return perhaps but it is hard finding amps better/cheaper than the Behringer models.

Yes you are correct that this would possibly favour pairing with the 2ohm Concret model as the amp is rated at 2ohm. The only drawback is that you would need 2 for powering eventually dual large BK. If buying two of those amps eventually, then a user is still better off buying a NX1000D as it will power the 2 units and has the benefits of the DSP features for tuning and getting much more from the low bass frequencies than a standard amp can.

This G2PRO would certainly be okay with a BK Advance as the official amp for it was only 300w @2ohm.

More good info!

You have no idea how much I hope your testing shows it can handle the BK LFE! I'm in that pickle where I WANT to have a nice Behringer w/ DSP, but cannot convince myself that (for me personally) it is worth the investment...at least yet lol.

The Nu1000DSP's are becoming harder and harder to find, and the price in the US is high. The NX1000's w/ DSP are $350+. (Quick looking, I'm sure a deal can be had if one looks long and hard enough.) That's part of why that $65 option would be nice.

 

[RCHeliguy]

More good info!

You have no idea how much I hope your testing shows it can handle the BK LFE! I'm in that pickle where I WANT to have a nice Behringer w/ DSP, but cannot convince myself that (for me personally) it is worth the investment...at least yet lol.

The Nu1000DSP's are becoming harder and harder to find, and the price in the US is high. The NX1000's w/ DSP are $350+. (Quick looking, I'm sure a deal can be had if one looks long and hard enough.) That's part of why that $65 option would be nice.

I know for a fact that the NX4-6000 can drive 2ohm BK Concerts from a guy who is using 2 of them right now.

He says he is currently running 2 x BK Concerts and 4 x Aura Pros off of his NX4-6000. So I'm assuming that means a dedicated channel for each of his Concerts and then two channels each with 2 x Aura's either in parallel or serial since the amp could handle them both ways.

Below shows where he has one of them mounted.

 

[Mr Latte]

And what might happen if I burn one up ...

Speaking of which. A BK LFE is 4ohms, and a BK Concert is 2ohms and also works well at "somewhat" higher frequencies. They are priced the same and take the same wattage, but the NX4-6000 can supply twice as much power to the Concert at 2 ohms as the LFE at 4 ohms. I would just need to make sure I had at least 12ga wire for the Concerts. Currently I'm only running 16ga wire.

Thoughts?

The difference in resistance relates to the wattages of course. I very much doubt you will use the full power of the amps as even with the DSP3000 I certainly don't, never mind the 6000.

The current concern with the G2Pro amp linked above is that with 2ohm resistance and 300w compared with a 4ohm unit it would not be as close to the min wattage BK claim should be used. The more I think about it having retired dual BK Concerts at 300w the better it may be to forget it for the largest models.

Still though an affordable amp to buy for BK Mini and BK Advance users wanting to keep to a budget.

However, I have been finding the slightly more affordable NX1000D model is capable of driving dual BK Concerts with plenty of power in reserve. So some saving could be had not going upto the 3000 series.

I can assure you that without DSP/EQ controls you will not get the best out of the largest BK units as its not just about watts. Its all about controlling the energy of bass for specific Hz. The iPad options with an interface or additional DSP solutions shared in the General Tactile thread should very stongly be considered for people seeking to buy into the bigger BK units.

I know from testing and have spent a great deal of time learning how to get the best out of them and create effects that are on a different level of immersion with doing such.

@bassun
I would say for you guys in USA/Canada to consider looking on ebay for good condition iNuke DSP amps if the prices for new NXD models are high. I bought quite a few of mine for between £100-£140 over the last year via ebay.

 

[RCHeliguy]

So many trains of thought that I'm not sure what applies to me and what doesn't.

Was that basically that the NX4-6000 should have no problem pushing either an LFE or Concert.
However to maximize the effects of either transducer that equalization would be necessary ?

At the moment my Aura's are continuing to do well. So I'll leave it there until I'm ready to deep dive into what is necessary to move things forward a bit.

FWIW I'm being told by a guy who says he's used all the models in the BK lineup that the Concerts are the only ones that he has never had issues with. Maybe they are less susceptible to the pistoning issues the LFE's can have and don't require all the DSP massaging. Just spit balling here. He is telling me that he wouldn't recommend any BK's other than the Concerts at this point.

"definitely had that piston bottom out issue on specific frequencies on all of their smaller units. Hated it as they basically act unpredictable without filtering it out with a DSP. I have not seen this issue on the Concerts. "


If the Concerts really don't require filtering, that seems like a HUGE improvement and simplification going forward

BTW I still think I would get much better results on my front two transducers making changes like those you suggested. Right now those two transducers are basically wiggling at the ends with most of their energy dampened out before reaching where my feet are.

 

[Mr Latte]

So many trains of thought that I'm not sure what applies to me and what doesn't.

Was that basically that the NX4-6000 should have no problem pushing either an LFE or Concert.
However to maximize the effects of either transducer that equalization would be necessary ?

At the moment my Aura's are continuing to do well. So I'll leave it there until I'm ready to deep dive into what is necessary to move things forward a bit.

FWIW I'm being told by a guy who says he's used all the models in the BK lineup that the Concerts are the only ones that he has never had issues with. Maybe they are less susceptible to the pistoning issues the LFE's can have and don't require all the DSP massaging. Just spit balling here. He is telling me that he wouldn't recommend any BK's other than the Concerts at this point.

"definitely had that piston bottom out issue on specific frequencies on all of their smaller units. Hated it as they basically act unpredictable without filtering it out with a DSP. I have not seen this issue on the Concerts. "


If the Concerts really don't require filtering, that seems like a HUGE improvement and simplification going forward

BTW I still think I would get much better results on my front two transducers making changes like those you suggested. Right now those two transducers are basically wiggling at the ends with most of their energy dampened out before reaching where my feet are.

Well clearly the NX4-6000 has more than sufficient wattage.
Having headroom with wattage is always a good thing but the additional wattage is not a major benefit to what we are doing here between 3000 and 6000 models. I do not expect you will need to run the amp at close to its max with either LFE or CT and when you do try such for giggles, then expect to have major piston pang issues without having DSP/EQ controls.

Why would the CT be more reliable than the LFE?
Is there a major difference in their output or is it part marketing?

Have you seen someone do a detailed comparison and in particular with a usage case scenario for what we are doing here?

Piston bottoming can be controlled if you have good EQ options. We proved that here even with the Mini lfe over two years ago. The CT will bottom just as the LFE will if we have effects in usage with similar frequencies and the amplitude of them gets increased, this with high gain or wattage will still cause it to bottom. Yes the bigger units will not be as prone to it but if your still pushing them hard then it certainly can still occur.

To make it easier then yes, it also helps a lot if we are monitoring the audio as then we can see exactly when it happens what the output is and then why/what is causing it.

 

[gnoshme]

Follow up on switching power supplies. I've been having an annoying click-click-click on a couple of my channels with the previously used 10A laptop like charger. Not sure exactly what it was..

- ground loop issue?
- pushing the wattage?
- bad PS?

But long story short, the issue went away with this, that is cheaper. Wish I'd known about them from the start.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0196PXMTU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Heretik]

Hey there, interesting thread, some great info here!

In terms of well priced multichannel amplifiers for our desired purposes, our choices sadly seem to be a little bit limited - Well, without a decent amount of money on hand anyways!! And even then, as Mr Latte suggests it can quickly stretch into the realms of overkill!

I actually use the older model of the Cloud CX-A6, six channel amp to run 4xButtkickers 1xADX Maximus and 2xReckhorn Pucks (I also use a single buttkicker amp for transducer no.7), but thought I'd mention it as I've found it to be a great solution for my setup - and it has definitely been cost effective in comparison to some of the other kit out there. I've found it to be a very reliable unit, despite being a little bit older now, and at 120w/4ohm per channel it runs and powers 6 transducers with ease. The only real drawback I have noted is the fans do raise the background noise levels, not something that bothers me so much, but appreciate could be a problem for others. You can pick these up secondhand on eBay around the £200 mark when I last checked - I got a bit lucky as I bagged mine for £150. Since the amp has no inbuilt dynamics like the Behringers do, I managed to find an old Allen and Heath 6x channel EQ/Dynamics unit to help with some finer tuning and to hook up with my PC (ancient software for it, but works perfectly well!).

Having said all of the above, if I had the spare cash I would go with a couple of Behringers (I have considered it, but decided to put my money into a motion rig!)- very handy having the precise dynamic controls they provide and looks a lot nicer too!

Cheers