All simracers are cheaters! (kind of... )

[Niels_at_home]

Hello!

I'm not talking about shift macros used in iRacing, although that is rather funny. The physical aspect of driving a racing car is underestimated. Although in the current era of motorsport, there is what George Carlin (RIP) would call a 'pussyfication' going on with more cars using power steering and closed cockpit cars having air conditioning etc, there are still many cars that are quite physical to drive.

Brakes
Your typical sim brake pedal might require about 2kg (4lbs) to press down fully. Perhaps you have a loadcell based brake pedal, but CST's leverage means its still probably about 15kg max (33lbs) and if you have Andy Pastores nice loadcell g25 addon, I believe thats 25lbs or just above 10kg.

To get 4G braking in a GP2 car, or 5G in a F1 car you need a peak force on the brake pedal of over 120kg, possibly more than 150kg! (more than 260lbs, perhaps 330+!). Even in a F3 car to get 3G's its 100kg pedal force (220lbs). That is very very tough and makes us simracers pretty much a bunch of wimps.

But do the brake G's help as a sort of 'automatic force generator' on the pedal? Barely I'm afraid. It will feel different applying 120kg in a static simulator compared to being thrown forward in the belts of a race car, but most of the force must come by stiffening your leg/body muscles. Imagine a 'ragdoll' driver in a car, perhaps only part of the weight of your lower leg might put some force on the pedal. Its old school muscles that press the pedal, with the G forces making it feel different but not much less tough. This is confirmed by some of the racing teams simulators I've seen, I put the brake strength to 200% in order to even manage good braking. And I'm used to 50kg (110lbs) of braking, so these simulators have 100kg / 220lbs or more brake pedals!

You can't do weird simracing techniques and odd throttle/brake at the same time when the physical effort of pressing the pedal is so hard. It is very unrealistic I'm afraid how most of us not only cheat on the physical aspect of braking, but also how it makes us get away with techniques you don't see in real racing.

Steering
How about steering then? Well, powersteering is available in some classes nowadays and I have no knowledge on how much this system typically helps. Perhaps a GP2 car is near the top of what modern unasisted racing cars ask from the drivers steering effort. In the fast multi apex corner at Turkey for example, values of about 25Nm occur. That is 12 times more than a G25. You won't believe it until you feel it. Analysis of an Indycar of some time ago showed that just to go straight (because of the assymetric setup) you need to apply some 20Nm (10x G25) going *STRAIGHT*

Realistic steering loads mean you can't do what simracers can do. Certain fast steering motions, or even the ability to keep the wheel nice and straight over bumps, in real life with these cars, the wheel will decide to a greater extend what is happening. Perhaps some simracers are faster using 240 degrees of rotation and low force feedback. In a real single seater they wouldn't know what hit em! (probably the wall.. )

So?
There will always be a big difference between real and virtual racing, but its good to know just how the physical aspect (and we haven't even talked about the G forces on the body and neck!) influences the experience. Perhaps at some stage iRacing or rFactor 2 or a good rFactor mod are pretty realistic, but nothing is realistic when you look at how most of us control these cars.

Why am I saying this? Well I'm bored, but also to voice some concerns how some simracers feel they're really doing something realistic where in fact this might not be quite true.

 

[Alexander Rhodes]

+1 to that.
There is no shortcut for talent, if you're quick in sim-racing you will be quick in real life, giving the propa physical training to cope with the G-forces of course. I never raced in real life ( not counting a few karts fun races ) but i,m sure if i had the chance i would have kicked many butts of the current crop of real life racing drivers

Thats cheeky:wink::wink:

Not entirely true at all. Many different companies, both games developers and race teams have put this to the test many a time over.
90% of all drivers who come from sim racing, fail really hard in real life.
90% of all drivers who give sim racing a go, fail really hard, I'm no exception.

They are both extremely different, so much so that it is like comparing jumping on earth, to jumping on the moon. When you switch from offline to online, or vice-versa, you have to learn everything again. You cannot learn how to go quick on a sim, only the track layout.

All markers are placed in different places, in different scale. All forces are different, some more exaggerated, others not enough. All inputs are different, in feel and amount needed. All outputs are different, speed, G, yaw, body flick, chassis flex.

You cannot compare a game/sim to real life, it never worked before, I'll be dead before it will.

But If you want to try to prove me wrong, the Ginetta G40 is an entry level semi-pro GT car, for a days testing/trackday it costs £350 (last year). For a trackday or testday you only need a drivers licence to be allowed in the driving seat. If your paying, I'll gladly show you how different they are, and I'll even give you some lessons to boot.

 

[William Levesque]

My father would agree with you

2 Quebec Formula Ford Championship in B-Class 1987-1988 (Older car), 3rd and 4th overall... He missed a couple of races in season 2 due to problems with his car...

He has 16 Quebec Slalom Championship and 2 Canada Slalom Championship

He did Karting, Solo-Sprint, Rally-Sprint (With a Fiat X1/9 in Winter !)

When he was my age (17) he was driving a C3 Corvette modified as a L-88 with easily over 550hp...

Sadly he couldn't continue because of apparant money issues and kids coming up redface

Even with all of this, I'm haulin' his ass off in Sim Racing... The only game where he is better (Depending on cars) is Forza 3... And it's because it's practically the only game he plays....

So yeah, to all sim-racers who think they would haul asses in real-life, think again... My 52 years old dad would scare you to death...

 

[Dariusz Swiderski]

Can not agree with you on that Alex, how could be so different when F1 teams using sims to prepare the drivers & cars for a GP? Ok, they have a lot more sophisticated sims BUT they are still only sims. The basics criteria still applies. Modern games simulate driving well enough to test driving skills, what is SO different about it?? Yes, the forces are different but the basics are there. Does under or oversteer in a sim look or feel so different?? I don't think so. I have spoke\raced ( on-line ) with many ex ( and current ) real life racing drivers and they all tell me how similar the modern racing games are to real life racing ( in the basics ). They can't be all wrong, can they?
I,m pretty quick in sim racing myself and my skills are directly transferable to real life, have held driving licence for 28 years and earn my living from driving. I recon i've covered well in excess of 1 million miles, accident free, thx to my quick reactions and skill behind the wheel.
And to give you another example; some time ago i went karting for the 1st time in my life, all the staff there were so impressed they asked me to join the staff race ( free of charge ) which i won, on track i never raced before, in vehicle i never raced before with young people who do this day in day out. They couldn't believe i've never raced before in my life.

I know my worth on real street and in sim racing, if you got '' it '' you will be quick in both, the only difference being the physical aspect, which most can achieve by intensive work out in a gym. Thats all there is to that.

To add to that: Real life racing IS easier ( in terms of feel ) as you have so much more info about what the car is doing on track. Sim racing IS harder ( not taking the physical aspect in to account )

 

[Alexander Rhodes]

I'm not talking about difficulty here, both are hard and yes, sim racing is very hard for me because I can't feel anything and my window is fixed. But the differences, as I mentioned above, it's all in the details.

Yes basics are similar, and close racing is what the pro's are talking about, because in preceding arcade racers, once you overtook, you were never seen again. But the basic aspects of anything can be given to you or anyone else, it doesn't mean they will succeed at all when they put it into practice, under pressure, and on the limit. For example, give someone a basic idea of how to craft with wood, you show them how it feels to saw through wood, glue wood together, measure, and hammer a nail, does that mean they can now build a welsh dresser..?

As I said before, it is all about scale, physics, feel, and practice. And yes, understeer and oversteer feel very different in real life, there are movements underneath you, and behind you and even a Leo Bodnar sim wheel will not give you that feel. And when you learn your braking points in the sim, you would have to start from scratch in real life, because nothing is in exact scale!

iRacing scans a track once, then they sell it online because it is expensive, so expensive that they require their members to pay monthly to play their game. All because they scanned the surface of a track once.

F1 teams scan a track 3 times, they then scan the area between the boundary walls and track 3 times, after that, they take video footage of surrounding area outside the boundary walls 3 times. They then pay expert graphic modelers to recreate the track, to scale, after that they pay physics graduates to design a physics engine to run their monocoque, front wing, rear wing, suspension mounts, suspension struts, brake units, tyres, wheel rims etc etc... the list goes on and on. It takes so long that the sim they are using today contains last years cars, and it costs the teams well over a hundred thousand pounds to take it from nothing to their driver getting an idea of the track and car, because thats all they get, an idea. BBC interviewed a driver a couple of years ago who entered F1 not having driven the car before, but having a go in the simulator, he told the reporter there was no comparison... after all that effort money and time, and still not even close.... So no, they don't use sims for practice, they use them for computational fluid dynamics and testing setup effects, not learning how to go quickly.

And as for the karting, thats nothing new, I did the same thing when I was 13, never having driven, raced, or played a anything better than Gran Turismo 2. I did 1 15 minute stint solo, then the owner of the track asked for a race, I lapped him in 15 minutes. I'm not the first person to have a similar experience, I won't be the last, not in 40mph karts anyway.

And when Dale Earndhart Jr. talks about iRacing, he is getting paid to do so, he doesn't actually use the game, he just has a sponsor with a lot of sense.

I know you think it isn't that much different, but until you have been on track, time setting or racing for position, you'll have no idea just how different everything works. And your right, we're not that far of physics wise, we have up to 20 points of freedom on current developments, but until we get that over 90, and until we get a tyre model that does more than perform like as a rubber doorstop or a foam wheel, we'll be stuck worlds apart, and most likely, arguing the point.

And as for companies that have taken people from online to real life, we have Red Bull, BMW, Vauxhall, Renault, iRacing and the list goes on, all given a full season, completely paid for as a top prize for winning a championship online. All of the drivers failed to score a single championship point, only 1 has returned for a second season on his own credit card.

 

[Marian Zelenka]

Brakes
Your typical sim brake pedal might require about 2kg (4lbs) to press down fully. Perhaps you have a loadcell based brake pedal, but CST's leverage means its still probably about 15kg max (33lbs) and if you have Andy Pastores nice loadcell g25 addon, I believe thats 25lbs or just above 10kg.

I put my fanatec clubsport pedals on scales and sat on chair. Then I simulated my sim braking and scales showed between 25-32 kg. I'm not sure how accurate it is, but pedals weigh 5,2 kg. It's default fanatec setup and I think you can tweak pedals a bit for even harder settings.

Steering
How about steering then? Well, powersteering is available in some classes nowadays and I have no knowledge on how much this system typically helps. Perhaps a GP2 car is near the top of what modern unasisted racing cars ask from the drivers steering effort. In the fast multi apex corner at Turkey for example, values of about 25Nm occur. That is 12 times more than a G25. You won't believe it until you feel it. Analysis of an Indycar of some time ago showed that just to go straight (because of the assymetric setup) you need to apply some 20Nm (10x G25) going *STRAIGHT*

Realistic steering loads mean you can't do what simracers can do. Certain fast steering motions, or even the ability to keep the wheel nice and straight over bumps, in real life with these cars, the wheel will decide to a greater extend what is happening. Perhaps some simracers are faster using 240 degrees of rotation and low force feedback. In a real single seater they wouldn't know what hit em! (probably the wall.. )

When I tried my new fanatec gt3 wheel for the first time, I couldn't even turn my steering wheel and go out of garage! Then I set it properly (according my taste) and driving is still quite exhausting. I drive without steering assistent on FWD real car for 10 years and don't have any problem with that. In fact, I preffer it to steering assistents and my "sim" wheel is harder to turn.

I use 900 degrees for road cars, 720 and 540 for race cars and 450 only for formula type cars. And I'm much faster than I was with first setting which was easy to handle but lacked feedback.


Real pro drivers starting to play sims, why? And they don't have problems as I see on videos. I don't take it too much seriously but I personaly believe that you can learn something from sims and I hope for better sim future.

But still, sims are great learning tools even for pro drivers because they can visualise new tracks. Then you just go there and find limits of your car. It's incredible, isn't it?

 

[Alexander Rhodes]

Real pro drivers starting to play sims, why? And they don't have problems as I see on videos. I don't take it too much seriously but I personaly believe that you can learn something from sims and I hope for better sim future.

But still, sims are great learning tools even for pro drivers because they can visualise new tracks. Then you just go there and find limits of your car. It's incredible, isn't it?

Most of us are moving over due to many teams going bankrupt over the last couple of years, I'm in the same boat.

And yeah your right, there is some learning to be done, you can learn things like overtaking moves, and... well there isn't much else we don't already know, and you cannot learn a track on a sim, as I have said already a few times, the areas surrounding the track are not to scale, most don't even look similar, so you can't learn where to brake, turn in, release the wheel or where to put power down. So no, you can't learn anything more than which corner comes next.I just can't wait till we have 90 degrees of freedom and realistic tyres etc. You'll look back and argue about how bad these sims were.

But you can have fun in close racing, which is why pro race drivers come to sims, not for realism, not to learn anything new, or to try setups, but to get out on track and have a race long wheel to wheel battle. Thats the whole point of the current market, and they're using words like "simulation" to get sales, not because it's actually close to life, but because people who don't go racing, get sucked in by it all, just like with FFB, and dual shock before that lol.

So the story is, unless you have enough money to pay an F1 team for their confidential simulator, then we're gonna be racing on the moon until someone can provide that kind of quality at an affordable price. So until that happens, quit trying to trick yourself and others into thinking they'll get a 0:46.0 in Top Gears reasonably priced car in real life just because they did it online. Instead, go have some fun, and win some races

 

[Alexander Rhodes]

My father would agree with you

2 Quebec Formula Ford Championship in B-Class 1987-1988 (Older car), 3rd and 4th overall... He missed a couple of races in season 2 due to problems with his car...

He has 16 Quebec Slalom Championship and 2 Canada Slalom Championship

He did Karting, Solo-Sprint, Rally-Sprint (With a Fiat X1/9 in Winter !)

When he was my age (17) he was driving a C3 Corvette modified as a L-88 with easily over 550hp...

Sadly he couldn't continue because of apparant money issues and kids coming up redface

Even with all of this, I'm haulin' his ass off in Sim Racing... The only game where he is better (Depending on cars) is Forza 3... And it's because it's practically the only game he plays....

So yeah, to all sim-racers who think they would haul asses in real-life, think again... My 52 years old dad would scare you to death...

Only just noticed your post lol, your dads a legend .

I don't get why most of the retiree's are going for forza though... get him over here, just tell him about the TCL and job done

 

[Dariusz Swiderski]

You are missing the point i,m trying to make Alex, i,m not arguing about how close the sims are to real life and so on. I agree with you on the differences there. My point is if you see someone on-line consistently missing their braking points, loosing the car ( and cool head ) at the slightest hint of oversteer or some other hand-eye coordination\reflex related problem, wouldn't that tell you this person won't cut the mustard in real life racing too whatever? And vice-versa? For me this is clear indication of someone's talent or lack of it. And i,m not talking about real life racing drivers, ex or current, as it would be much tougher for their brains to get rewired from having so much info to very little info in sim-racing. In 95% of cases they will be slower then someone who never raced in real life.

Again: if you are really bad in sim-racing you will be bad in real life too, if you are very good in sim-racing you have the tools to ( perhaps ) do well in real life racing. Thats all what i,m trying to put across.

 

[William Levesque]

Alex: Nah... My father wouldn't want to put time in it... He also find rFactor quite complicated ! XD

And by the way Dariusz, about Karting, well, I was also great !

I will try to get in the Top 30 at the KCR (Chateau-Richer) track (One of the big track in Canada) this summer... I was 5 tenths away last time (1:00,06) after 2 years away from a kart, having "race" 3-4 times only... Almost a year already now but hopefully I will not eat a 3 days old cold pizza that will want to get out... I will at least break in the 59's barrier...

 

[Aristide Romanov]

Gregger Huttu did very well when he raced in real life.
Yes he vomited, yes he wasn't prepared and said the same thing as Alexander: Real life is so different story compared to computer generated reality.
But everyone was amazed how quickly he learnt. After his first few laps ever, he was just a little slower than full time pro's.


In my book both Alexander and Darius are right. Yes, real life is Earth and computer world is Mars. They are similar in many ways but they will never be alike and will never be together. Never ever.
But if you have the skills, you can succeed in both worlds. But it takes time, knowledge, dedication, money, support and the list goes too far away.


Even with money & support not every champion online can be a real champion. You also need for real life, except so many other things, physical qualities and Ayrton Senna's emotionally driven heart and soul.

 

[William Levesque]

The most important thing in motorsport is PASSION...

With that you're sure to be respectful to the other drivers and you're sure that you're gonna improve a lot

 

[Alexander Rhodes]

Again: if you are really bad in sim-racing you will be bad in real life too, if you are very good in sim-racing you have the tools to ( perhaps ) do well in real life racing. Thats all what i,m trying to put across.

I'm gonna be honest with you now, I absolutely suck at sim games, arcade games, etc. I cannot put more than 5 quick laps together, I cannot drive consistently, and I generally do meet a few walls at each race, I absolutey suck at sim racing, but in real life, I've beaten Ben Collins, Nigel Mansell, Johnny Herbert, Sam Bird and the list goes on. So just because your bad at sim racing, doesn't mean your bad in real life. And vice-versa, as I mentioned, the aliens that won fully paid race seasons repeated my sim difficulty in the real world, generally failing to put any quick laps together.

There is a common fault that causes it, racing on sims is like racing on the moon. Everything is exaggerated, slowed down, less grip etc. and it makes a huge difference. Or, there is the arcade racer, where it's like racing scalextric cars, glued to the road doing a 150mph 90° turn, it does go from one extreme to the other, and real life is in that little bubble that we can't yet reach because of 2 things.
1. Peoples perception of what it should feel like racing a real car, according to math.
2. Quantum physics. Where nothing ever works out like a math equation.

But I will also agree, that being quick on a race sim does show the ability to learn and improve your racecraft. But you can't improve your real life racecraft online, and you can't improve you online racecraft in real life. Having the ability and maybe a touch of talent online will not see you instantly win races in real life, but it will help to know which turn comes next, allowing you to progress much faster.

 

[Alexander Rhodes]

Alex: Nah... My father wouldn't want to put time in it... He also find rFactor quite complicated ! XD

And by the way Dariusz, about Karting, well, I was also great !

I will try to get in the Top 30 at the KCR (Chateau-Richer) track (One of the big track in Canada) this summer... I was 5 tenths away last time (1:00,06) after 2 years away from a kart, having "race" 3-4 times only... Almost a year already now but hopefully I will not eat a 3 days old cold pizza that will want to get out... I will at least break in the 59's barrier...

Let us know how the race goes, hope you break the 1:00 barrier, it can be done .

And my advice with you not having race for so long, wrap some sandpaper around a dumbell or something the weighs a couple of kilograms, and do a few repetitions a day, that way your hands won't die on the curbs after your long break . Also pizza is good, as is laxatives, anything to clear excess weight

 

[Marian Zelenka]

And yeah your right, there is some learning to be done, you can learn things like overtaking moves, and... well there isn't much else we don't already know, and you cannot learn a track on a sim, as I have said already a few times, the areas surrounding the track are not to scale, most don't even look similar, so you can't learn where to brake, turn in, release the wheel or where to put power down. So no, you can't learn anything more than which corner comes next.I just can't wait till we have 90 degrees of freedom and realistic tyres etc. You'll look back and argue about how bad these sims were.

What I think you can learn is:

- be cool under pressure when some other car is sitting behind you for 30 laps or so and not make a big mistake
- following other car but not keeping your eyes on it and learn when and where to overtake and when not (much cheaper )
- ability to keep pushing and make again and again the same lap times and save tires
- to predict braking points for sim car you have never driven on track you have never driven before; very good is to swap race car for road car; or does it have brakes?
- learn some new technical stuff and try to understand car setups

I don't think that you can learn track on simulator and then apply all braking points and all your driving to the real track. Even conditions on the same real track are changing over and over. Temperatures, new tarmac, wind, different tire compound, slipery parts on tracks (not in sim) or even the same car isn't the same car in real life or is a new evolved version and ...

It's interesting how much car accidents we had in news for the past few years in my country. Many young drivers who drove fast and crashed. Certainly, it was happening in the past but I believe that it's because these kids play all the "sims" like need for speed, forza, gt and so on pc or console and have distorted picture about car handling. And I think that you can learn a respect when you struggle to keep your sim car under control and have full hands lap after lap...

 

[Aristide Romanov]

Arcade is like playing in the school yard with your dick. Sim is instruction on the training field, learning the theory. Reality is - you're already on the battlefield fighting with the bad guys.

 

[Marian Zelenka]

Gregger Huttu did very well when he raced in real life.
Yes he vomited, yes he wasn't prepared and said the same thing as Alexander: Real life is so different story compared to computer generated reality.

I think he said that he had a fever and was sick. But didn't want to lose that opportunity.

 

[Aristide Romanov]

Nope, he did alright.

Because of the different track elevations, I think. After a high crest, uphill, he went downhill and the sudden change was a little too much for his stomach.

 

[Jim Cole]

Myname, I am a professional driver and I can tell you that all the accidents are not generally because people are trying to be ayerton senna out there, but because they are in a hurry and are not paying attention to what is going on around them. I have seen way too many accidents in the several million miles of road driving I have done and almost none of them can be attributed to someone trying to be a race driver.

This is how it typically works: Driver 1 leaves home at the last minute and needs to get to work/school/girlfriend or what ever in a hurry. Driver 1 goes faster than he should and is following others way to close to be able to react to anything safely. He is also getting frustrated because he didn't plan ahead and is going to be late. Driver 1 gets stuck behind Driver 2 because traffic is a bit heavy and sees a tiny little hole in the traffic to make a move to pass, but he fails to see that Driver 2 needs to slow down quickly because the car ahead of him just got a flat tire. Driver 2 hits brakes, Driver 1, still looking at that hole drives into Driver 1.

Obviously there are as many variations of this as there are accidents, but driving too close, waiting till the last minute to do things, not paying attention and other things are the factors that lead to the many accidents we have now a days.

 

[William Levesque]

Let us know how the race goes, hope you break the 1:00 barrier, it can be done .

And my advice with you not having race for so long, wrap some sandpaper around a dumbell or something the weighs a couple of kilograms, and do a few repetitions a day, that way your hands won't die on the curbs after your long break . Also pizza is good, as is laxatives, anything to clear excess weight

Haha, thanks for the tip but I should be alright, the only problem I have is because of the vibration in my hands because of the plastic steering wheel... I'll put bike gloves and see what it does

And Jim, I can tell you that many crashes implying young drivers are indeed caused by their lack of experience and skill (Which they don't know) that leads to them trying to be race car driver on the public road...

I mean, a lot of these guys think they are amazing because they can "drift" with their Civic on snow... Yeah sure... But the problem is not that, the problem is that they try to improve their "amazing skill" on the road and not on the track...

 

[Alexander Rhodes]

Haha, thanks for the tip but I should be alright, the only problem I have is because of the vibration in my hands because of the plastic steering wheel... I'll put bike gloves and see what it does

And Jim, I can tell you that many crashes implying young drivers are indeed caused by their lack of experience and skill (Which they don't know) that leads to them trying to be race car driver on the public road...

I mean, a lot of these guys think they are amazing because they can "drift" with their Civic on snow... Yeah sure... But the problem is not that, the problem is that they try to improve their "amazing skill" on the road and not on the track...

Trust me, hire karts are deadly to skin cells lol, toughen up the skin on your palms and you won't get the normal blisters.

And yes, you right about the crashing, young people in most countries have never experienced a spin or loss of grip before there first accident. I believe we should all be doing the same as Finland by now, forcing provisional drivers to take at least 3 lessons on a skidpad before they are allowed to take their driving test. This way you can guarantee that they'll have a little more respect for the grip levels on the road in all situations, and a little more for the speed they travel at.

If I had done the same skidpad lessons before I got my first car, maybe I wouldn't have killed it, I'm just lucky I spun on an empty road and there was no one else nearby.