Accuforce v2 vs. OSW vs. Fanatec Podium DD1? Which one is the best?

[NoOne3000]

I'm in the U.S. and am trying to decide which wheel to buy. I have demoed an Accuforce v2 and it felt great, but i'm wondering if i'm missing anything with the OSW and the soon-to-be-released Podium. "RON reviewt" on YouTube apparently was able to spend some decent time with the Podium at the Fanatec community event on Aug. 25 (in Germany?) and I asked him directly in the comments what his thoughts were on the Accuforce to the OSW to the Podium since Fanatec had all wheel types setup at this event. He seemed genuinely unbiased, and in his comments he said he felt the Podium was smoother than the Accuforce and that the OSW was just slightly smoother than the Accuforce and suggested I wait until more reviews and comparisons are released. Now, this could be due to the fact that Fanatec did not spend too much time tuning up the Accuforce or OSW thus inducing a feeling that the Podium was "smoother". I'm looking for some community feedback to help me with my purchase as I'm wondering if I can just go ahead now and buy the Accuforce with no regrets. And I don't really want to wait until December to buy a first gen product either. Do we think the Podium is going to be that much better than the Accuforce or OSW?

Thoughts?

Here's how the prices break down. The Accuforce is easily the most economical option. And it get's even cheaper on Black Friday when they offer it for $1050 shipped! (i'm not sure if I can wait another 7 weeks)

Accuforce v2 Complete System with Accuforce wheel and button box paddle shifters- $1200 shipped.

Simucube OSW small Mige wheel base - $1300 shipped, + Fanatec wheel/button box $400 = ~ $1700 shipped to the U.S.

Fanatec Podium DD1 = $1040 + Fanatec wheel with paddle shifters and button box $400 = ~ $1440

 

[RaceNut]

Thanks Beef.

I recall similar feedback over in ISRTV, but your responses in that thread have disappeared.

In your opinion, having extensively used both an OSW mige and an Accuforce v2, is the OSW really discernibly “less grainy” than the OSW?

Being in the USA, I’m looking at $1050 shipped to my door for the Accuforce v2 Complete system.

As someone that has driven countless hours using both the AccuForce and OSW (SimuCube) wheels, I know that the AccuForce can be tuned to eliminate grainy feeling FFB. It's mainly controlled through the SimCommander Smoothing feature and in so many cases, I don't think people understand just how to utilize it in the best way.

Yes, the OSW systems typically have more power (depending on configuration) and punch but, both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. SimCommander allows advanced tuning options that other wheels just don't have. That may not be a big deal if you only play one of the top sim-titles but, in some cases, having SC4 can be a game-changer imo. When I'm using the OSW, I miss having the options that SimCommander offers me, especially Foundation FFB (Telemetry).

 

[ThugUK]

Well I have ordered the AFV2, which is due to be delivered TODAY.
The reasons I went for that was price, and software.
I also have Buttkickers that use Simcommander software, so I can start both the wheel profiles and buttkickers with only 1 piece of software running to power both.

Usually when looking at hardware, the first thing I do is Google reviews and also look to see if the drivers/software area is accessible. In the UK the OSW is sold by Sim-plicity, and I cant find any drivers on their site. In fact I believe you have to ask for them and that they don't auto update, which could be a pain I guess (if correct).
Where Simcommander checks for updates every time it loads up (and is updated regularly).

This is my first DD wheel (coming from a G27) so I am sure I would have loved any of them in reality.

EDIT, actually I have a question someone may be able to answer.
With the AFV2 I also got a copy of Simcommander/Simvibe included, but I already own this (bought it years ago when I got my Buttkicker). The code is on my receipt and I want to sell it on, but I want to know is it tied to my email address? And can it be sold anywhere in the world or is it locked to a country like some games are?

 

[ThugUK]

This is oldish but explains that the V2 can be smooth.

 

[RaceNut]

EDIT, actually I have a question someone may be able to answer.
With the AFV2 I also got a copy of Simcommander/Simvibe included, but I already own this (bought it years ago when I got my Buttkicker). The code is on my receipt and I want to sell it on, but I want to know is it tied to my email address? And can it be sold anywhere in the world or is it locked to a country like some games are?

IIRC, you can opt for a discount for the value of the Software at purchase when you already own it. It's possible that changed but, if not, I would request a refund for that portion of the sale. SimXperience is very good and fair to work with in my experience so you should certainly explain it to them and see if they will do that. I'm not sure the software alone is transferable but, it is when you sell the wheel to someone - if that makes sense.

 

[NoOne3000]

After even more consideration, I am still sticking with my CSW v2.5 until reviews of the DD1 surface from Barry at Sim Racing Garage.

Interestingly enough, this article helped me accept my CSW v2.5 in the interim- https://www.reddit.com/r/simracing/comments/9m8w3f/i_switched_from_an_osw_to_a_csl_elite_ps4_wheel/

Interesting read!

 

[RichardHessels]

OSW, its a beast that never has reliability issues and if you get it from simracingbay then you will also get amazing customer service.

We bought already 6 OSW's from them. They work flawless.
They also have a much better Biss-C encoder with millions of steps instead of the standard 20.000.
Thes motion is so super smooth, no cogging can be felt al all.
Couple that with the great simucube software who really matured over the last year.
You can make yourself a setup that last a lifetime.

 

[NoOne3000]

It appears that the Accuforce v2 regular price for the Complete kit is now $999. For me, that is $1050 USD shipped to my door.

I am really wondering what kind of upgrade to expect moving up from a CSW v2.5 and a Porsche rim to the Accuforce v2? I'm assuming a noticeable upgrade?

Should I buy this Accuforce v2 or continue holding out for $1000 USD Fanatec DD1?

Discuss.

 

[Beef36]

.

 

[anton_Chez]

I've always said the upgrade is not as large as going from something like a G25/27 to a CSW but the difference is not linear. You get a great feeling of the softer and more progressive belt drive vs the gears in the CSW vs G25, more strength, faster movement and support for much more real to life rims. With DD you get a CSW on steroids. It only becomes apparent the more that you use it. Also the Simucube or Simcommander software gives you a lot more freedom for tweaking and finding a personal profile for a given car, track, title, etc.

I absolutely love my OSW small Mige and would never go back to a 'consumer grade' wheel base. That said, I upgraded because I could and I was rebuilding my entire chassis. I didn't feel the need to upgrade the CSW, where the G25 was really a test to see what this sim racing thing was all about!

I should add that while the 20nm gives an amazing amount of torque and speed, the smaller details are what really stand out in a DD wheel. They are so much more alive. You feel everything.

 

[Thirsty]

I used to own an Argon OSW, currently got a Lenze Simucube and I tried an Accuforce on a $30k Ckas hexapod rig, buit and tuned by an engineer with real racing experience. He claimed to know the OSw and was of the opinion the Accuforce is the best (of course it was grainy). Well, his credentials are admittedly way superior to mine. I'm not an engineer and I've got no real racing experience. However, I do have top-end gear and a very expensive setup. I'd say only consider the Accuforce if your budget simply doesn't allow you getting a real servo system or maybe if you are really into these titles with poor FFB (I don't know about that because I don't play them). On the other hand there will be quite a few servo setups on the 2nd hand market available with all the new stuff coming out. The way I see it a second hand Argon or Simucube Mige is significantly better than the Accuforce.

 

[RaceNut]

I used to own an Argon OSW, currently got a Lenze Simucube and I tried an Accuforce on a $30k Ckas hexapod rig, buit and tuned by an engineer with real racing experience. He claimed to know the OSw and was of the opinion the Accuforce is the best (of course it was grainy). Well, his credentials are admittedly way superior to mine. I'm not an engineer and I've got no real racing experience. However, I do have top-end gear and a very expensive setup. I'd say only consider the Accuforce if your budget simply doesn't allow you getting a real servo system or maybe if you are really into these titles with poor FFB (I don't know about that because I don't play them). On the other hand there will be quite a few servo setups on the 2nd hand market available with all the new stuff coming out. The way I see it a second hand Argon or Simucube Mige is significantly better than the Accuforce.

I have no skin in the game (in either case) but, I still feel that what the AccuForce lacks in raw power, it gains in tuning options (for those not afraid of tuning options ). If the AccuForce is tuned for maximum detail (overkill imo) or uses the default settings / AutoTune settings, the FFB will feel grainy for sure. With the right mode and smoothing, it can produce ffb closer to the OSW Mige.

The SimuCube-Mige will still provide somewhat better response than the AccuForce and certainly, more punch (if that's what you want). In terms of which system provides more realism in ffb, I sometimes think the AccuForce can do that a bit better because at optimal static force levels, some effects can be too punchy in how things like raised-curbs come through the wheel.

In terms of performance (lap-times), I'd be hard-pressed to produce evidence that one system results in faster lap-times that the other and either system can and should provide improved consistency over main-stream wheels.

I'm not a fan of total realism in ffb because I think the feedback we get through the average RL car (on it's own) is incredibly boring and non-immersive, especially when we are relying completely or mostly, on the wheel for tactile feedback from the virtual car. If realism in ffb is what you want, Self-aligning torque is almost the only effect you need to have.

Consider the advent of SimuCube2; how much benefit through improved response and detail is needed if you are going to reduce the ffb to realistic levels anyway? The Fanatec CSW2.5 can probably do the basics well enough.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The Fanatec CSW2.5 can probably do the basics well enough.

I'm quite sure that the CSW2.5 does everything you "need" in terms of lap times. However once you enter the realm of enthusiasts this is all about "want".

If DD feels better, enthusiasts want it. As you said this is not really about being true to life, it's about feeling good in a simulator. I think by definition in a sim you are looking for information that doesn't normally exist to take the place of all the inner ear cues for different kinds of acceleration.

This has to do with how creative the people writing software are to find ways to convey information to the wheel to embellish the sim driving experience.

 

[RaceNut]

I'm quite sure that the CSW2.5 does everything you "need" in terms of lap times. However once you enter the realm of enthusiasts this is all about "want".

If DD feels better, enthusiasts want it. As you said this is not really about being true to life, it's about feeling good in a simulator. I think by definition in a sim you are looking for information that doesn't normally exist to take the place of all the inner ear cues for different kinds of acceleration.

This has to do with how creative the people writing software are to find ways to convey information to the wheel to embellish the sim driving experience.

I agree and totally get that. I own both the AccuForce and OSW wheels but, something that I find a bit disturbing about the current trend towards more realism in ffb (as represented in ACC) is that the developers are have reduced the FFB options and effects to better represent "realism". Some titles provide us plenty of details and effects to tune the ffb to our personal preference but, in the case of ACC, developers have decided that the ffb should not include effects that provide details regarding front grip-loss; they regard such effects as being "arcade". Maybe they are but, I'm fine with that, so long as the underlying physics remain simulation-based.

To be fair, there is still a slight fall-off effect when front-tire slip-angle goes beyond the optimal point but, the ffb goes numb at that point. So, any sense of variation in or degree of understeer is lost; contrast that to ffb in rF2 where the details are used to elevate or magnify the cornering intensity during under-steer. They are two completely different approaches and frankly, I just don't care about which one is more realistic. The approach I much prefer is that of rF2 (and AMS) despite it being regarded as "arcade".

One big advantage of DD-wheels is that they can provide a great deal of detail and variation in effects but, not if the developers make choices that exclude such effects. At such point, the weakest link in the ffb quality becomes the game imo.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Got it! I didn't realize they were doing this in ACC.

I think there needs to be an understanding that a sim is NEVER going to equal real and that they should optimize for the best sim experience possible.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Wow, ACC is that bad? Haven't touched it since RC2.
Thought you were referring to DR2 in you earlier reply.
Yeah, totally agree, and if trend stays, only telemetry based FFB can save us, not fancy filters, they don't add much anyway.

 

[RaceNut]

Wow, ACC is that bad? Haven't touched it since RC2.
Thought you were referring to DR2 in you earlier reply.
Yeah, totally agree, and if trend stays, only telemetry based FFB can save us, not fancy filters, they don't add much anyway.

Don't get me started on DR2-ffb!

I believe the fundamental ACC-ffb is probably as good as it will get (based on Kunos forum comments) and most in the ACC community feel the FFB is really good to superb as it is. I tried it again last-night and it just feels dull & boring without having more under-steer cues (imo). It also doesn't provide much sense of hydroplaning or changes in grip in the rain.

Maybe I just expected too much from Kunos but, I feel like they are trying to shove their "realistic" ffb down users throats and telling them "it's in your own best interest, this is how it should be done". I'm surprised many of the iRacing players that have tried it don't like the ffb in ACC because, they share that dull under-steer feel although, iRacing has better progression leading up to it imo.

 

[Thirsty]

...With the right mode and smoothing, it can produce ffb closer to the OSW Mige...

I get you and it makes sense what you say about FFB in real cars.
It's mentioned quite often that the graininess can be eliminated with the right settings.
No idea why this super expert I mentioned before didn't bother...and why these mysterious settings are not provided by Simx or anywhere else as far as I know. There's always this big secret about it. How many potential customers are put off by this discussion about it? I can't believe this is not having a negative effect on sales. Logic just tells me there's a snag to it. Probably two things, one, it may be an individual setting for each sim, maybe even car and it's tricky to work it out, two, I wouldn't be surprised if it comes with trade offs.
One of the major advantages of the OSw and Simucube systems is, you get some standard settings from somewhere, turn it on and it feels pretty damn good...that's the way I see it anyway

 

[anton_Chez]

I prefer a single FFB gain slider in sims. Simucube gives some tuning settings to play with if things aren't up to par but I've never liked having to adjust multiple sliders for FFB, ever. In AC I turn all the canned effects OFF and just run the gain at 40% with full power in Simucube. I love the way AMS does it. Single gain slider, the FFB feels great. rF2 is similar although you get the option of adding some much needed damping with a DD wheel.

I get that sliders help users custom their own FFB but I hate when a dev makes me tune my FFB to get it to a point of just working.

 

[RaceNut]

I get you and it makes sense what you say about FFB in real cars.
It's mentioned quite often that the graininess can be eliminated with the right settings.
No idea why this super expert I mentioned before didn't bother...and why these mysterious settings are not provided by Simx or anywhere else as far as I know. There's always this big secret about it. How many potential customers are put off by this discussion about it? I can't believe this is not having a negative effect on sales. Logic just tells me there's a snag to it. Probably two things, one, it may be an individual setting for each sim, maybe even car and it's tricky to work it out, two, I wouldn't be surprised if it comes with trade offs.
One of the major advantages of the OSw and Simucube systems is, you get some standard settings from somewhere, turn it on and it feels pretty damn good...that's the way I see it anyway

In SC4, the primary setting that reduces or eliminates the grainy feeling is the master smoothing setting but, what many users don't realize is the scale of the slider is really large. So in AC - for example, I may run the smoothing at 200% (and it goes even higher). A title such as AMS requires very little - if any, because the baseline FFB has already been optimized by the developers. AC-FFB in it's raw form is very spikey and harsh until we filter it one way or another, or use "Gyro" to reduce the harshness and stabilize the output.

I admit that SimCommander is too complex and confusing for most users, and having a simplified UI for those that prefer it would be good. Then offer another pathway for advanced settings.

SimuCube is quite easy to tune and even more so when we consider that the Direct-Input settings can generally just be left at their defaults. Those settings may only need to be increased for titles such as RaceRoom and the Dirt-series where the signals are a bit weaker.

Still, having the telemetry option can bring a lot more dynamics to some titles and it's something I miss when using the SimuCube.

 

[RaceNut]

I prefer a single FFB gain slider in sims. Simucube gives some tuning settings to play with if things aren't up to par but I've never liked having to adjust multiple sliders for FFB, ever. In AC I turn all the canned effects OFF and just run the gain at 40% with full power in Simucube. I love the way AMS does it. Single gain slider, the FFB feels great. rF2 is similar although you get the option of adding some much needed damping with a DD wheel.

I get that sliders help users custom their own FFB but I hate when a dev makes me tune my FFB to get it to a point of just working.

Yes, the fact that different titles can have very different ffb-settings can add much confusion to the tuning process. Add to that, hardware tuning settings and it's no wonder people struggle to achieve satisfying results.

Although, I think it's best if we all discover what defines such ffb by exploring the full range of possibilities at some point; once we've done that, we then have a more specific target to aim for.
At some point, tuning FFB becomes really quite easy and we can better identify what and where any limitations rest, within the software, hardware or the game itself. We also develop a good understanding of the common fundamental ffb-effects that apply to almost every title in some form.

Titles having a strong foundation in FFB-effects can get by with having very few settings (rF2, AMS for example) whereas, RaceRoom separates effects in the UI. But, the good thing is that it also allows for much more personalization.

The Dirt-series may be an example where the fundamental ffb-settings are not as effective as they could be because telemetry-driven ffb can improve considerably on what the game provides normally. In such cases, having the telemetry option can make a big difference. Although, in DR2, even that seems to be problematic.