A fantastic argument as to why cockpit view is not realistic

[isamu]

Check out this thread over at GT Planet:

http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=126741

They have a good discussion going as to why even the pros use bumpercam views in their sims instead of cockpit viewes. Some highlights....

i could handle a few like that if it wasnt for the wheel. Just like you theres already one in my hand i dont need to see a fake set infront of me aswell!
Iv been playing a bit of Shift lately (dont own GT5P yet lol) and im loving using the view where you can see a little bit of the bonnet, seems more kinda real that way

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Love the interior view as eye candy, but too much distraction and limited visibility of track and what's going on around you. The rooftop cam really gives the best track overview, but to me the digital gauges are useless, and as I am using a beamer too far off screen center as well

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Whenever you're driving in real life you're not looking at the steering wheel in your hands and then at a second one further away with another pair of hands that replicates your movements.

In-car view should be adjustable so you see the dashboard and the hood only, and no steering wheel/hands. Like this:

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The bumper cam gives you the best sense of immersion.

An in-cockpit view is never going to be realistic for single-monitor users... you need at least 180 degrees of forward view to make it work. This is simply because we don't drive cars in real life while looking through a letterbox plastered over our heads...

Watching through bumper cam on a 40" screen a few feet away puts you right where you'd be in relation to what you're seeing in real life. Yes... you can see a bit more of the road under you, but that advantage is partially neutered by the fact that you're still looking through a letterbox.

Thoughts?

 

[Dave Stephenson]

You can turn off the second steering wheel.

If you turn off the 'Real Seat Position' option in Race 07 you can have the view forward so its practically on the dash as they mention above. I found this better when I had a triple head set-up as I still had mirrors, but you could simply run the vritual mirror and that solves the problem easily.

 

[Dave Flower]

I use a single monitor and headtracking, I know I am faster on other views, but I don't do it to be fastest I do it for fun and immersion.

This 'not realistic' argument comes up in all SIMS at various times - I say drive into a wall in game at 130mph, sit back chill out, go make a coffee and then come back and race again in the same car on the same track....

Then go try it in real life... I guarantee you won't be sitting back, chilling out and back on track 5 mins later after a coffee in the same car....

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

I am so tired about these cam view arguments. Why can't everybody just drive as they like. Why is it important how your competitor drives?

The most realistic view you get in a real racing car :thumb:

 

[Martin Bulgin]

Check out this thread over at GT Planet:

http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=126741

They have a good discussion going as to why even the pros use bumpercam views in their sims instead of cockpit viewes. Some highlights....



Thoughts?

Thats his opinion mine is the opposite, cockpit view all the way.

 

[Harald Stadler]

Nice arguments in the quoted discussion... But I am also tired about the discussions about realism. Is the car physics realistic? Is the view realistic? Is ... realistic ? Blabla... I prefer to say "in my opinion the view/physics/xyz is authentic". "Something is realistic" is a hard saying. Realism for me means "it is exactly like realtity". This is not true for every part of every "simulation" game. It is as near to reality as money and effort allow the developer to do, that's true. But how far we go in beliefing of feature XY is realistic is fully subjective. The very most of us do not know it feels in reality to drive for example a V8 supercar or a GT Car, never mind about a F1 car. So, these discussions are senseless in my opinion.

But there are other arguments against cockpit view, which are more relevant for competing in a virtual race:
Professional drivers mostly use hood or bumper view, simply because it is faster! It has to do with the GPU performance (no need to include the cockpit and some of the animations in there). And the working of the car on bumps, curbs, and so on is more visible (why? I don't know...) so you can react better on driving situations and have more visual input for the setup.

In spite of these points, I drive in cockpit view. Why? Cockpit view is the only view which can be forced by a server setting. To have same conditions for all drivers, in most of the (big) events I participate "forced cockpit view" is enabled. I state myself as an ambitious driver, but I am too lazy to adapt to different views dependend on the event And, of course, it is the view which is the most authentic one in my opinion. ;-)

Regards,
Harald

 

[Ross Balfour]

I agree with Bram, you can drive anyway you want, that's why the various cameras are available.

I think its a lot of rubbish that some people think that all servers should be "forced cockpit" absolute nonsense. I am always really annoyed when I join a server and find I can't change from cockpit view. People say it's a could thing but it's really not as you should be allowed to choose your camera, rather than Simbin choosing it for you. We should have "Forced Swingman" or "Forced Hood" view and see if there opinion changes then.

 

[Tim Meuris]

True
Forced view is rubbish
Let everyone choose the view he/she likes
but I swear with cockpitview
The immersion it gives, makes it more realistic for me.

 

[Nigel Roberts]

I agree to each their own when it comes to the best view, I also think that there is no merrit in arguing the point unless you are setting up a full type cockpit with correct seating possition, correct sterring wheel height, and monitors placed at correct level. I personally think to even enter the debate you need this type of setup and multiple monitors. If you are sitting at a computer desk with single monitor then its definately personal preference being the correct answer

I will say something that does go in favour of cockpit veiw being more realistic over bonnett veiw. In the GTR2 series I was managing we had an incident I think it was at Magny-Cours first left hander. We reveiwed each race in the series (yep full 60mins) and gave penalties accordingly. There was an incident where a car that was up the pointy end and good clean racer hadnt pitted and was about to have another driver get his lead lap back made a pass up the inside leading into the left hander, the lead car took the racing line cutting into the driver getting the lead lap back. We voted the lead car a penaly for not allowing racing room and causing the incident. The driver who got the penalty wasnt happy and sent in a series of screen shots leading up and including the incident these were all bonnett view. Clearly none of the shots you could see the car up the inside. He confirmed that is his normal racing view. We reveiwed with standard and forward position cockpit view and you could clearly see the car on the inside and clearly passed the B-Pillar. If this driver had been using cockpit view very likely the incident would never have occured.

 

[Craig Hume]

As said before, most people will have a different reason for whichever view they use.
I prefer the cockpit one myself because it just feels "closer" to the real thing.
The reason why you can see so much is obviously to allow you to see the mirrors. To much forward (more realistic though) would leave you blind in the corners. virtual mirrors is an option, but will throw your realism arguement out the window. I seem to be faster on bonnet view, as i can see much more, but i usually end up near the back in anycase :wink: So i rather stick to standard cockpit.
Comparing it to real racing, i never look at my hands or the steering wheel in either sim on real. My eyes are always looking out at whats going on ahead and around me.
So removing the wheel in cockpit should make it a bit more real, as your actual hands are in front of the screen in anycase.
Wow, what alot of mumbling on by me :tongue: