2013 Formula One German Grand Prix

[Bradley Vanian]

I didn't understand this inverstigation in the first place. In both cases (FI & RB) it was a crystal clear unsafe release which has nearly always resulted in a drive through during the race. Why not here? It had certainly nothing to do with the stewards haveing to deal with several other inverstigations.
Then I also don't understand why FI gets to pay 5,000 and RB 30,000. I understand that Webber's wheel injured the cameraman but it's the same delict in both cases. Did other teams who failed to fasten a wheel properly get the same fines in the past?
If the Torro Rosso didn't break they both would collide and they could spin in a waiting crew and injure someone.
In my opinion both caes should be treated the same. To prevent such incidents maybe the teams should be punished with a certain points loss. That way they maybe take 0.5 to 1s more to check if the wheel is fastend before releasing the car. The person operating the light system certainly reacted to the front jack being released rather than the mechanic at the wheel giving his ok.

What I don't understand is why the FI Incident wasn't a Drive Through Penalty like most other unsafe releases.... So inconsistent... It's not like they didn't have time to sort it out. They had over 50 laps.

 

[Markus Neumann]

I didn't understand this inverstigation in the first place. In both cases (FI & RB) it was a crystal clear unsafe release which has nearly always resulted in a drive through during the race. Why not here? It had certainly nothing to do with the stewards haveing to deal with several other inverstigations.
Then I also don't understand why FI gets to pay 5,000 and RB 30,000. I understand that Webber's wheel injured the cameraman but it's the same delict in both cases. Did other teams who failed to fasten a wheel properly get the same fines in the past?
If the Torro Rosso didn't break they both would collide and they could spin in a waiting crew and injure someone.
In my opinion both caes should be treated the same. To prevent such incidents maybe the teams should be punished with a certain points loss. That way they maybe take 0.5 to 1s more to check if the wheel is fastend before releasing the car. The person operating the light system certainly reacted to the front jack being released rather than the mechanic at the wheel giving his ok.

Just because both are cases of an unsafe release doesn't mean they need to be punished the same way. That's like saying you should get the same punishment for stabbing someone and for breaking someone's finger - both are cases of assault, but one is much more dangerous than the other and hence gets punished more harshly.

 

[Metalfreaky]

Just because both are cases of an unsafe release doesn't mean they need to be punished the same way. That's like saying you should get the same punishment for stabbing someone and for breaking someone's finger - both are cases of assault, but one is much more dangerous than the other and hence gets punished more harshly.

1. Stabbing someone is a case of murder.
2. The point is both unsafe releases have the same potential of injuring someone down the pit lane. None of those two incidents was more or less dangerous. After the cars were released it is down to non-calculable things (and therefore we can call them random) if in the end someone gets hurt or not.
If the cameraman didn't stand exactly at that place maybe no one would be injured right now, but that doesn't make the incident less dangerous.

 

[Markus Neumann]

1. a) a stabbing is not necessarily lethal or premeditated; and b) the point here is not to discuss the semantics, but rather to point out that punishment depends on the severity of the crime, even if it does fall under the same category
2.

None of those two incidents was more or less dangerous.

If that was the case, I'd agree with you, but it's not. Incidents like those with FI actually happen fairly often and they rarely end up endangering anyone. Even if the cars do collide, it tends to be at low speeds. An airborne tyre on the other hand is far more dangerous to bystanders and if the pit lane is busy at the time, is extremely likely to hit someone. The cameraman suffered several fractures and a concussion, and quite frankly, it could just as well have killed him. It wouldn't have been the first time someone had died from a flying tyre.

 

[Metalfreaky]

Incidents like those with FI actually happen fairly often and they rarely end up endangering anyone.

I think you don't get my point. It is (or should be) irrelevant how they end up. We have seen cars collide in the pit lane and it was down to pure luck that no one got hurt badly.
What you are saying is falling down the stairs and breaking an arm is more dangerous than bungee-jumping when it goes fine. An action is more dangerous if it can cause a higher damage/injures. It is not relevant if it actually causes any damage.

Even if the cars do collide, it tends to be at low speeds. An airborne tyre on the other hand is far more dangerous to bystanders and if the pit lane is busy at the time, is extremely likely to hit someone.

I think an 642kg car that collides at up to 100kph and slides into a waiting pit crew is extremely dangerous.

If the tire missed the cameraman and the FI and Torro Rosso collided into the pit crew: what would have been more dangerous?

 

[Markus Neumann]

I think you don't get my point. It is (or should be) irrelevant how they end up. We have seen cars collide in the pit lane and it was down to pure luck that no one got hurt badly.
What you are saying is falling down the stairs and breaking an arm is more dangerous than bungee-jumping when it goes fine. An action is more dangerous if it can cause a higher damage/injures. It is not relevant if it actually causes any damage.

I do get that point (as it's made fairly often), but a) I don't think the two offenses are comparable because I do think that the loose tyre has the higher potential to cause harm and b) that way of thinking is idealistic, and it's just not how justice systems work.

I think an 642kg car that collides at up to 100kph and slides into a waiting pit crew is extremely dangerous.

If the tire missed the cameraman and the FI and Torro Rosso collided into the pit crew: what would have been more dangerous?

One car is decelerating from 100kph to 0, the other accelerating from 0 to 100. If they collide, they are probably somewhere in between, so let's say 50kph. Since the driver coming into his pits sees the driver in front of him leaving, he will brake harder and, given the breaking power of F1 cars, be almost at a standstill already. The collision will further slow them down and at that point, both drivers will be slamming their brakes. It's just not likely that they hit the pit crew at high speeds. Just look at a couple of videos of incidents like that.

Oh, and following your reasoning, Alonso should have gotten a penalty for it in Silverstone then.

 

[Metalfreaky]

50 or even 30 kph is high speed if you hit a human with a +642kg object with sharp edges that is designed to hit barriers and not humans.

Oh, and following your reasoning, Alonso should have gotten a penalty for it in Silverstone then.

If Grosjean had to break or take any kind of avoiding action, than yes. I don't know if he had to.

In the last few races there have been some strange steward decisions in my opinion like reprimands for not slowing down under yellow flags or no drive throughs for the unsafe releases here. What is the point in a rule when the team/driver gets a free ticket when breaking it? Especially when there is a danger of hurting marshals/people in the pitlane.

 

[Markus Neumann]

50 or even 30 kph is high speed if you hit a human with a +642kg object with sharp edges that is designed to hit barriers and not humans.

Painful, but hardly anywhere near lethal.

Lethal.

And the reason Alonso didn't get a penalty is that because of his quick reaction, no one was endangered at all. The outcome dictated the (lack of a) penalty.

 

[Metalfreaky]

So now we are comparing pit stop incidents with incidents at 300kph?
The loose wheel of Webber also was just painful for the cameraman and not lethal. Just a few broken bones which is exactly what could have happend with Kobayashi's mechanics in the first vid.

 

[ufunacaoenn]

So now we are comparing pit stop incidents with incidents at 300kph?
The loose wheel of Webber also was just painful for the cameraman and not lethal. Just a few broken bones which is exactly what could have happend with Kobayashi's mechanics in the first vid.

The cameraman was hit from the back, he is extremely lucky to have landed first on his left shoulder (the broken shoulder) and not his head because that could turn out to be deadly or cause permanent injuries. It is also surprising that he didn't break his back/spine after seeing the impact in slow motion.

Not to mention a collision between the FI and the TR were to collide, the would collide diagonal which would allow them to decelerate fast enough to not collide with any person on the pits.
Here is an example of Renault and Force India colliding in the 2010 Hungaroring GP. (I know the speed won't be enough to satisfy you but you can see how quick the cars stop as the 2 cars collide.)

 

[Dux]

Sebastian Vettel .... Lo

 

[Eskkew]

Sad for Kimi. Vettel got balls to win but Kimi managed better overall. Unfortunately he lost too much time behind Grosjean.

 

[António da Cunha]

I thought that it wasn't allowed for a car to go backwards once they leave their own pit, like they did with Webber's car when he lost a wheel. Am I missing something? While they are on the pit lane they are still allowed to do this? It seems unsafe.

 

[Antony Snook]

I mean the Grandprix version of Brands Hatch that goes through the woods.
Not the stupid Indy Oval in the stadium.
Still the Indy Oval is still better than than The Holkenheim stadium track.

 

[Antony Snook]

The rule is you cant reverse onto on coming traffic. And you need a manual push from the mechanics to go into garage as its confined with equipment.