2012 Formula One German Grand Prix

[GAIAjohan]

A question:
Today we saw Hamilton unlap himself, and Vettel bering furious about that.
Usually we see the fast drivers at the front and slower drivers being lapped, thus getting a blue flag.
Today, and in Japan 1993 it was an other case. The driver behind unlapping himself.

Now I just tried to find the exact meaning of a blue flag,
Wiki says:

A light blue flag, sometimes with a diagonal yellow, orange, or red stripe, informs a driver that a faster car is approaching and that the driver should move aside to allow one or more faster cars to pass. During a race, this would usually only be shown to a driver getting lapped

In f1 there's only one sentence about a blue flag, rule 20.5:

20.5 As soon as a car is caught by another car which is about to lap it during the race the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first available opportunity. If the driver who has been caught does not allow the faster driver past, waved blue flags will be shown to indicate that he must allow the following driver to overtake.

I think rule 20.5 + the general blue flag rule makes it possible to give persons one lap in front of others a blue flag. Do you agree?

Like:
If Karthikeyan is in P1 and Vettel in P14 one lap behind. Vettel is 4secs per lap faster.

I think it is possible to wave the blue flag at Karthikeyan even though he is in P1.

Do you guys agree?

 

[ufunacaoenn]

They always wave the flags even if the driver to lap you is quite far away. But to answer your theory, no since your previous lap was slower compare to the lap time that the guy who is about to lap you did meaning that you are atm slower then him.

 

[GAIAjohan]

They always wave the flags even if the driver to lap you is quite far away. But to answer your theory, no since your previous lap was slower compare to the lap time that the guy who is about to lap you did meaning that you are atm slower then him.

Yes, Karthikeyan is 4 seconds per lap slower but in P1. Vettel wants to unlap himself to come in the same lap as Karthikeyan is.. (Like what Hamilton did to Vettel)..

So, temporarily Karthikeyan is much slower even though he's one lap in front.
I think Karthikeyan could receive a blue flag because the fight is not for position, but for Vettel who is faster and unlapping himself, even if Karthikeyan is in P1.

 

[Michael Brown]

A question:
Today we saw Hamilton unlap himself, and Vettel bering furious about that.
Usually we see the fast drivers at the front and slower drivers being lapped, thus getting a blue flag.
Today, and in Japan 1993 it was an other case. The driver behind unlapping himself.

Now I just tried to find the exact meaning of a blue flag,
Wiki says:


In f1 there's only one sentence about a blue flag, rule 20.5:


I think rule 20.5 + the general blue flag rule makes it possible to give persons one lap in front of others a blue flag. Do you agree?

Like:
If Karthikeyan is in P1 and Vettel in P14 one lap behind. Vettel is 4secs per lap faster.

I think it is possible to wave the blue flag at Karthikeyan even though he is in P1.

Do you guys agree?

Was Hamilton shown the blue flag? As soon as he got by Vettel he pulled a big enough gap that he wasn't slowing Vettel at all. I noticed the regulation says, "During a race, this would usually only be shown to a driver getting lapped," but I can't think of another scenario it would be used.

I think you can unlap yourself only if you are fast enough that you won't impede the other driver afterwards. I think you have two choices when a car behind you is close to lapping you: either speed up or get out of the way, What Hamilton did was pretty much the former, although because he passed Vettel in the corner he ended up slowing Vettel.

Vettel believes he was impeded because whenever you overtake in a corner, both cars end up going slower than if they used the normal racing line. That happens all the time in racing.

 

[GAIAjohan]

No Hamilton didn't receive a blue flag, but I wonder if Vettel could be shown the blue flag because Hamilton was just faster than him and not fighting for positions..

 

[Markus Neumann]

Quite frankly, I feel that Vettel really was being a bit of a baby there. In the 80s, there weren't even any blue flags for lapped drivers.
And this is not the first time this has happened anyway. For example at Abu Dhabi last year, Barrichello unlapped himself from the leader (Hamilton) in the DRS zone. Hamilton waved his hand at him and took the position back, but that was it. No bad blood afterwards, no team boss complaining.

I'm getting the feeling that being so far behind Alonso in the championship is really starting to get to Vettel

 

[Carlos Luna]

Great to see Alonso come out with another win! Only driver so far to have three victories this season and it shows as he has a pretty good grip on the championship lead. Having a buffer of a full race in points should give him a lot of confidence going into this last half of the season.

Regarding the Vettels pass on Button, it was clearly an illegal pass and the penalty fits the crime. Not sure why Vettel felt that he needed to complete the pass right there and then, there was still a lap and half left, he was clearly faster than Button, so even if he didn't complete the pass there he would've gotten him further ahead. He was far behind Alonso as well, so he can't even argue that he was trying chase him down for the win. Perhaps it was just out of frustration that he did, he was trying to win his home gp.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Well that was an odd race for Hamilton and the Top 3
Vettel must have found all of that very amusing hahaha

Brilliant drive by Alonso Button and Vettel!

 

[Michael Brown]

Saw this on Planet F1 that might clear up the Hamilton unlapping himself situation.

The backmarker must be shown three consecutive blue flags for it to be considered impeding. Hamilton overtook Vettel in one corner and was well ahead by the time they got to the next one. Therefore, he did not impede Vettel.

 

[Ramon Alonso]

Really great drive by Fernando, got to give the man the credit. Great drive by Jenson, and good strategy by McLaren, that was a great move pushing Lewis by the front runners to help Button, that's teamwork! Vettel he just ****ed up, he had Jenson slithering all around and got impatient. He gave the stewards an easy verdict, especially after the team got caught doing some funny business. The FIA was looking to pounce on them.

 

[Diego Lopez]

The 20 second penalty was right. If Button was penalized for this last year then so should Vettel. Funny how we criticize the stewards for their inconsistency, and now that they attempt to do so with this call is also being criticized.

so it was a great decision about the penalty for this race (no defending Sebastian)

but half the word whined about Lewis in SPA 2008....

what a laugh.

 

[Ramon Alonso]

If you can use the DRS on lapped cars, then they have to be able to unlap themselves.

 

[Kamran Choudhry]

At least for this race Ferrari has the best car. I don't get this idea where people are saying Alonso is driving inferior equipment. Red Bull does not have the top end speed to pass on the straights and in Hockenheim the DRS assisted curved straight leading into turn #6 was the only place drivers were passing anyone for position today. Not even the new and improved McLaren was able to pass Alonso. Remember Hamilton came out of the pits with fresh tires and easily passed the slower Red Bull of Vettel but was unable to come close to passing Alonso's Ferrari. Then Button in the 3rd stint never really came close to passing Alonso.

I just want to remove this idea that he wins with inferior equipment. At least this weekend Ferrari was better than Red Bull and McLaren. Vettel and Button had no chance passing Alonso on the only part of the track anyone did any passing for position.

The reason Red Bull didn't have the top speed is not because they don't have the top end speed. It's because Red Bull chose to have a short 7th gear. Vettel was in fact going faster than Button and Alonso with no DRS. Vettel was going 305 kph vs Alonso 303 kph. But with DRS Button and Alonso did 318 kph vs Vettel's 308 kph. That's Red bull's own fault. Alonso used all his KERS on that back straight and he was faster than Button in sector 1. Apparently Button also needed to save fuel... Now I'm sure if Red Bull decided to make their gear longer like Alonso and Button, Vettel would lose a few kph, maybe be down to 302-301 kph with DRS? That's not enough to justify Red Bull is lacking straight line speed.

Mclaren and Red Bull clearly had a quicker car in clear air. They both were gaining on Alonso significantly. So to say Alonso didn't win with inferior equipment is a load of crap. He did win with inferior equipment. Despite it being rather small difference in pace, you put them in a time trial and I'm sure Mclaren win this and Vettel gets 3rd behind both mclarens and 4th would go to Alonso or Raikkonen. Lotus were also quick, possibly as quick as Ferrari if not quicker.

One thing I'll say is, clearly Ferrari and Alonso take care of their tires better than their immediate competitors, and also getting stuck behind Alonso also killed their tires. But look at the way Vettel caught up to Alonso in the 2nd stint and Button in 2nd and 3rd stint.

Give credit where it's due....he's doing incredible things with his slightly inferior car which has never been the fastest car at any race.

 

[My993C2]

Give credit where it's due....he's doing incredible things with his slightly inferior car which has never been the fastest car at any race.

The credit I will give him is that he is not making any mistakes. But I am still not buying this "he is driving inferior equipment" nonsense. Every car has it's strengths and it's weaknesses. It wasn't just Vettel who was unable to pass Alonso on the straight. Neither of the McLaren cars, which are a lot faster than the Red Bull on the straights could pass the Spaniard. Not taking anything away from the win. Alonso deserved this win, he drove an error free race. But he is not driving inferior equipment. The Ferrari is everything as good as both the Red Bull and McLaren cars.

 

[Bjorn de Haas]

Just a few pictures from where i was sitting. Pictures are taken with a normal camera so nothing special.

 

[Jack Sargent]

The credit I will give him is that he is not making any mistakes. But I am still not buying this "he is driving inferior equipment" nonsense. Every car has it's strengths and it's weaknesses. It wasn't just Vettel who was unable to pass Alonso on the straight. Neither of the McLaren cars, which are a lot faster than the Red Bull on the straights could pass the Spaniard. Not taking anything away from the win. Alonso deserved this win, he drove an error free race. But he is not driving inferior equipment. The Ferrari is everything as good as both the Red Bull and McLaren cars.

The Ferrari hasn't been the strongest car at a single race this season. Not one.

Just face it. Alonso is at the top of the championship because he is the most consistent and clever driver in the field. Not because he is driving the best car.

We are at half way point and we see Alonso leading by more than a race win. If Alonso actually did have the best car he would be way out in front already.

 

[Chronus]

In f1 there's only one sentence about a blue flag, rule 20.5:

I think rule 20.5 + the general blue flag rule makes it possible to give persons one lap in front of others a blue flag. Do you agree?

The rule says:

As soon as a car is caught by another car which is about to lap it during the race the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first available opportunity.

Which has implications to both positions and speed. Position wise, it assumes the car being caught is about to be lapped. It doesn't say anything about "unlapping". Speed wise, it assumes the car being caught is the slower car, which is all too obvious.

Then it says:

If the driver who has been caught does not allow the faster driver past, waved blue flags will be shown to indicate that he must allow the following driver to overtake.

Which would point us solely to being caught (regardless of relative positions) and who's the faster driver.

Oddly phrased regs, to say the least. They could be more clear:
"if the car being lapped does not allow passage to the faster car, then blue flags will be waved to the slower car. If the following car is faster and unlapping himself, then blue flags will be waved to the slower car."

 

[GAIAjohan]

I don't think the Ferrari is the best car but it is the most consistent car of the top drivers in F1. Most other cars are having troubles with temperature changes and the Pirellis, while Ferrari always has a decent performance.
Also I do believe Alonso is the best driver in F1, especially in tactics. Hamilton doesn't have these tactics, while Button doesn't have the raw speed. And Vettel? I'm not sure how good he really is. The last two years RBR was too good for the competition, and this year they sometimes win with technology which is not always 100% legal it seems..

The best car might be the Williams or Sauber. Both don't have awesome drivers yet they perform very well.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

And that's what makes the difference between good drivers and the best. Look the old Renault era, Alonso's driving style was so different. But he changed it when moving to Bridgestones in 2007, and probably now again to maximize the Pirelli's.

It´s not always you can just change it. Alonso´s driving style naturally made it easy for him.
It wasn´t about skill this but pretty much pure luck in terms of driving style.
Same with Trulli, many thought he faked power steering issues when it´s impossible to do.
the team told everyone it was simply Trulli´s driving style that disallowed him to work around it like Heikki did.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

In other categories such as endurance, cars unlap themselves all the time, otherwise racing more than 2 hour won't be possible as loose and recover laps starts to be common after that time.