Cars 1970's Performance Mustangs 0.92

Joshua Widder · Mar 2, 2018

kazama85 said:
Are these scratch modeled?

Credits:
3D Modeller, Physics, Textures - Joshua Widder

Yes, I fully created this mod and any mod I upload unless someone else's name is in the credits for 3D modelling. All my work will be scratch made using Blender and Gimp (gotta love GNU).

Ben Dovah · Mar 3, 2018

The RUSTANG™ is coming along quite nicely.

I'm hitting this bad boy with lots of surface rust. It's a slow process because I'm hand placing absolutely everything on a trial and error basis.. but the end effect is worth the labour.

AccAkut · Mar 3, 2018

jlnprssnr said:
In case you don't know, you can check the collider in Content Manager. Looks like it's off - in case this is not a CM bug. But seems to work fine for other cars
View attachment 238616
(A3DR's Boss for reference
View attachment 238617

This is a bug caused by making the collider in Blender, all my colliders appear like that too. You can check ingame with the set editBoxes 1 command, a red plane will appear at the highest point of the collider.

guidofoc · Mar 3, 2018

Hi, I've finally tried your cars, they look gorgeous! Thanks for giving us these beauties.
Two things I noticed:

The wheels are transparent when seen from the inside:
The Mach 1 looks very high on its wheels when driving, while the Boss looks more natural.

Ben Dovah · Mar 3, 2018

Last shot before I quit for the evening...

To do list:

Finish shitifying the remaining panels.
add "shadows" to make it look like none of the panels meet up.
Maybe add even more miss-matched panel colours (not sure yet).
Probably more stuff I can't think of...

I'll release the skin when I finish the exterior, then update once I've made the interior look sufficiently nasty.

Feel free to suggest ways to improve the look. I'm open to suggestions.

Joshua Widder · Mar 3, 2018

Needs a roadkill sticker somewhere...

Joshua Widder · Mar 3, 2018

guidofoc said:
Hi, I've finally tried your cars, they look gorgeous! Thanks for giving us these beauties.
Two things I noticed:

The wheels are transparent when seen from the inside:
View attachment 238889

The Mach 1 looks very high on its wheels when driving, while the Boss looks more natural.

I will try to figure something out with the wheels when I get some time, as far as the mach 1's looking so high all I can say is that is how they were, the front lift on those cars was ridiculous so they will lift the nose during driving. The boss has both a front spoiler and much stiffer front end to help eliminate the effects front the lift. Best way to think of it is that the lift of the mach 1s is equililent to the weight of the engine. So think of a mustang with the engine removed plus a bit more due to low spring rate in the rear and that will be how it looks at 100mph. I will do a double check on it to make sure something didnt get oopsied with the update.

Visocane · Mar 5, 2018

@Joshua Widder

Thx for the Response in the rating Section. I was trying to find out wich differentials those Cars had but i coudnt find much because o the Language barrier. Really struggling to find informative stuff in English. Thx for explaining and bringing in the Terms. Still i think the behaviour of the Car is not realistic. Like i said the rear end feels glued to the Track. I might make a short Video to explain what i feel. Maybe i just expected the wrong behaviour and thats why it doesen't feel right. It's just really hard to spin the Car. You really have to behave like the last man on the Planet to spin out. As those are older Cars with Vintage Tyres and old Suspensions, i can't imagin how this Car shoud have more Grip then a M3 E92. Usualy every Car starts to slide after a Skandinavian-flick. With this Car you apply full Throttle right at the flick where it woud turn into even more understeer and this Car just kinda understeers till it catches itself again.

Joshua Widder · Mar 5, 2018

If you are just trying the 302, it has excessively wide tires for the time, low torque in the low range, and exceptional balance(for an american car of the time) so in all the reviews from the time they noted it was hard to provoke a spin and had to use kerbing to "induce" some misbehavior. The 429, well if you say you can't spin that, I have to assume you are joking. And the mach 1's will have more understeer as they are more a luxury performance variant than the dedicated performance like the mach 1's, so expect understeer, but I also have no issues inducing some oversteer with a bit of throttle on those. Also with the weight of the cars don't expect if you are already plowing in the car to immediately induce oversteer as the suspension is very forgiving. If you haven't already with the boss 302 remove the limiter in the setup as it allows the car to actually reach its power band. I am not saying I have nailed the physics yet, but I can assure you they are not tossed on the car without an afterthought. I have made some minor changes(shouldn't have done that much) in the last few updates and have not been able to drive the cars much due to work on other projects. I will try to set some time aside to drive them all around a bit and ensure the minor changes haven't had any unplanned effects. Also try to remember to not think of these as pure American muscle cars, those are the GTO, Chevelle, Charger, etc these are pony car muscle which means they actually can somewhat handle for their time, they are not purely one trick ponies down the quarter.

Andy-R · Mar 5, 2018

Visocane said:
@Joshua Widder

Thx for the Response in the rating Section. I was trying to find out wich differentials those Cars had but i coudnt find much because o the Language barrier. Really struggling to find informative stuff in English. Thx for explaining and bringing in the Terms. Still i think the behaviour of the Car is not realistic. Like i said the rear end feels glued to the Track. I might make a short Video to explain what i feel. Maybe i just expected the wrong behaviour and thats why it doesen't feel right. It's just really hard to spin the Car. You really have to behave like the last man on the Planet to spin out. As those are older Cars with Vintage Tyres and old Suspensions, i can't imagin how this Car shoud have more Grip then a M3 E92. Usualy every Car starts to slide after a Skandinavian-flick. With this Car you apply full Throttle right at the flick where it woud turn into even more understeer and this Car just kinda understeers till it catches itself again.

https://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/1970-ford-mustang-boss-302-page-3

We had been impressed by the same sensation when driving the Mustang on the road. It is quiet and exudes quality, very much like an expensive European GT car. The stiff suspension and high shock absorber control give it a very purposeful feel, and because the body doesn't quiver or rattle when you hit a bump the overall impression is most satisfying.

"With the manual steering it feels very heavy up front, particularly after the Duster which, although it didn't generate high lateral forces, was very easy to toss around. The steering effort is extremely high—certainly higher than any race car."

Within a few laps the Mustang's virtues and vices, which tend to be extreme, were laid out for inspection.

"The brakes are fabulous. I can go in way deeper before I have to brake with this car than I could with the other cars. And the pedal feel is excellent. Here, I can control the braking with pressure on the pedal where in the other cars the pressure stays about the same and the braking seems to depend on how far down I push the pedal. That is very tricky to do accurately, especially when you are going fast. But boy, does it understeer. Look, you'd think I was going into the pretzel business with my arms. I've got the wheel really cranked over and it just isn't getting the job done. The only way I can get the tail out is to trick it by hitting a bump at just the right time or setting it up with the brakes. Funny, I expect more of this car in handling than it's giving me. And it's busting my hands. Every time we hit a bump in the turns the wheel kicks back so hard that I can hardly hold on to it with my arms crossed up the way they have to be.

"With a best lap of 1:12:35 the Mustang had been quicker than the Duster, but only with considerable effort. Once back in the pits the hardships of manual steering and extreme understeer were obvious for all to see. Sam's hands, in the crotch between the thumb and first finger, were bruised and swollen from being battered by the steering wheel spokes. The front tires hadn't escaped either. The outer tread rib was badly shredded—so bad, in fact, that it looked like the tread might start to peel. This brings up an interesting point about wide tires like the Mustang's F60-15s. Chevrolet is reluctant to use them, particularly on cars like the Chevelle, because the front suspension camber pattern is such that it lifts the inside of the tread patch in hard cornering to the point where the front tires are operating at a disadvantage relative to the rears—which exaggerates understeer. Curiously, the Chevelle wasn't wearing bias-belted tires (which are standard equipment this year) but rather last year's Goodyear bias-ply, polyester cord Wide Tread GTs. As a point of interest, the Cobra and the Chevelle both had exactly the same type of tires.

That bit about the tyres near the end of this quote is interesting, I missed that last time I read it. Joshua what about increasing the wear quite a bit on the tyres to approximate this? At the moment they seem very durable, atleast I haven't noticed them drop from 100%.

Joshua Widder · Mar 5, 2018

Yeah I can look into it, when I do the testing coming up I will do a long run of something like Barcelona or Laguna to torture the tires and start fiddling with the wear curves, I used a standard street tire wear so I will definitely look into getting custom wear like the brake fade.

Andy-R · Mar 5, 2018

Joshua Widder said:
Yeah I can look into it, when I do the testing coming up I will do a long run of something like Barcelona or Laguna to torture the tires and start fiddling with the wear curves, I used a standard street tire wear so I will definitely look into getting custom wear like the brake fade.

Sounds good

, I know some of the street 90's tyres in AC can't take much abuse. It could be worth driving something like the RUF CTR on ST90's for reference to see just how quickly they can wear out. I'm not sure about the Miura, it is a street car from a similar era but I haven't driven it enough to know how the tyres are, could be another good one to check.

Visocane · Mar 5, 2018

Joshua Widder said:
If you are just trying the 302, it has excessively wide tires for the time, low torque in the low range, and exceptional balance(for an american car of the time) so in all the reviews from the time they noted it was hard to provoke a spin and had to use kerbing to "induce" some misbehavior. The 429, well if you say you can't spin that, I have to assume you are joking. And the mach 1's will have more understeer as they are more a luxury performance variant than the dedicated performance like the mach 1's, so expect understeer, but I also have no issues inducing some oversteer with a bit of throttle on those. Also with the weight of the cars don't expect if you are already plowing in the car to immediately induce oversteer as the suspension is very forgiving. If you haven't already with the boss 302 remove the limiter in the setup as it allows the car to actually reach its power band. I am not saying I have nailed the physics yet, but I can assure you they are not tossed on the car without an afterthought. I have made some minor changes(shouldn't have done that much) in the last few updates and have not been able to drive the cars much due to work on other projects. I will try to set some time aside to drive them all around a bit and ensure the minor changes haven't had any unplanned effects. Also try to remember to not think of these as pure American muscle cars, those are the GTO, Chevelle, Charger, etc these are pony car muscle which means they actually can somewhat handle for their time, they are not purely one trick ponies down the quarter.

I think i was juding a bit to early. I apologize. I've been taking the Boss 302 for another Spin. This time i've taken another Track and the diffrence is like Day and Night. Feels pretty good now and i found out what the "Problem" is.

This is related to the Mod Track L.A Canyons:

The behaviour of this Car is completly diffrent when drifting then what im used to. When you pull a drift, as soon as you hit the Rev limiter the Tyres immediately catch Grip (with this i mean more Grip then with other Cars). Now i dont know what this is related to. Usualy Cars build up Grip again when you release the Throttle and gently go back on it so you can gently lessen the angle of the Drift and drive straight again. In the Mustang this happens suddenly in some Situations wich usualy happens with grippy Cars like a Gt3 or the KTM-Xbow for example. Cars with a Lot of Grip or decent Grip and a Lightweight concept. Sure the Camber of the Road has a huge impact on that behaviour but it feels a bit exaggerated.

Did you increase only the width of the Tyres or did you also change the Grip? Because a wider Tyre doesent always mean it has more Grip. Friction is not depening on the Width of the Tyre. It depends on the Weight per square mm or inch and in the Case of the Tyre the Compund of it and the "ability" to bite into the Tarmac. Maybe the Car is just a bit to grippy for Vintage Tyres. It felt really good and kinda fast with 94% Grip on the Nordschleife.

Andy-R · Mar 5, 2018

The only way to know if the car is close to the real thing other than the accel/decel tests is surely to force @Pixelchaser to release Lime Rock so we can test it against the real lap time

(worth a try!)

@Visocane if you are still trying to get the car to drift like you feel it should did you read the real world review posted above? They state quite clearly that the only way to get the back out was by hitting a bump at the right time or by using the brakes. I'm not saying you are wrong, I have no idea, just that AFAIK Joshua went with the tyres that performed closest in accel/decel tests compared to atleast 2 different real world tests of the same sort which is atleast some real world data to base it on.

Visocane · Mar 5, 2018

Andy-R said:
The only way to know if the car is close to the real thing other than the accel/decel tests is surely to force @Pixelchaser to release Lime Rock so we can test it against the real lap time (worth a try!)

@Visocane if you are still trying to get the car to drift like you feel it should did you read the real world review posted above? They state quite clearly that the only way to get the back out was by hitting a bump at the right time or by using the brakes. I'm not saying you are wrong, I have no idea, just that AFAIK Joshua went with the tyres that performed closest in accel/decel tests compared to atleast 2 different real world tests of the same sort which is atleast some real world data to base it on.

Hehe yeah People like the comparison with RL. I personaly think it's always hard to compare. We have optimum Grip all over the Track. No Dust and Dirt on the Track and also no influences like Humidity etc.

I've just compared it now to the 250 GTO with the bigger Engine at Imola. The Ferrari is much faster on the Straights wich is to expect by looking at the Numbers. I was driving against the AI at Strenght: 100% Variation: 0% Aggression:100%

I only did 4 Laps in Total 2x2 Laps. And yes the AI of AC is not the best to compare Cars so i think its ok that i didnt practice 10 Laps first. The 250 GTO was only a slight bit faster in Corners. I coud keep up with theme trought the Corners in the First Lap i coud even position my Self right next to the 2nd last Guy after the slow Chicane on top and catched some Slipstream from the Guy in front. As soon we got to the finishstraight they pulled of. Now that the Mustang is almost 600 Kg's heavyier i think it's suposed to be a bit slower in Corners even tho it has wider Tyres especialy on the front. The Center of Mass shoud be considerd aswell i think. In the End it's maybe only a few % to much Grip.

I will rewrite my Review because i exaggerated it defnetly. Also note to myself that i shoud Test more then 1 Track and maybe Original content instead of Mods.

Joshua Widder · Mar 5, 2018

Well your candor is appreciated, I will look into the tires more when I do the testing, though they are really difficult to get right with no real data beyond dimensions. AC doesn't even have any stock bias-ply tires, all I could find were radials...

Andy-R · Mar 5, 2018

Visocane said:
Hehe yeah People like the comparison with RL. I personaly think it's always hard to compare. We have optimum Grip all over the Track. No Dust and Dirt on the Track and also no influences like Humidity etc.

I've just compared it now to the 250 GTO with the bigger Engine at Imola. The Ferrari is much faster on the Straights wich is to expect by looking at the Numbers. I was driving against the AI at Strenght: 100% Variation: 0% Aggression:100%

I only did 4 Laps in Total 2x2 Laps. And yes the AI of AC is not the best to compare Cars so i think its ok that i didnt practice 10 Laps first. The 250 GTO was only a slight bit faster in Corners. I coud keep up with theme trought the Corners in the First Lap i coud even position my Self right next to the 2nd last Guy after the slow Chicane on top and catched some Slipstream from the Guy in front. As soon we got to the finishstraight they pulled of. Now that the Mustang is almost 600 Kg's heavyier i think it's suposed to be a bit slower in Corners even tho it has wider Tyres especialy on the front. The Center of Mass shoud be considerd aswell i think. In the End it's maybe only a few % to much Grip.

I will rewrite my Review because i exaggerated it defnetly. Also note to myself that i shoud Test more then 1 Track and maybe Original content instead of Mods.

Yeah there are for sure many factors IRL that aren't simulated in game but I don't think there is anything better to go on when trying to replicate a car than the real world results.

The grip for the accel/decel tests was set to 96% in the end and IIRC one of the Kunos devs suggested 97-100% as similar to realistic grip (I guess on a fairly regularly used race track.)

I wouldn't trust the AI in many of the classic cars in AC, they arent sooo bad in the GT40 but at Monza Junior in the GTA for example I tested them in a full length qualifying session and they were only doing 1:05 or 1:04 lap times where the player car was doing 1:01's.

We raced the much more powerful 429 Mustang at NJMP & Riverside Sports Car Short Course and even on the latter with its long straight the GTA was significantly faster over a lap due to its higher cornering/braking ability and better traction.
NJMP:
http://91.121.155.150:55001/lapstat...ustang_boss_429&valid=1,2&date_from=&date_to=
RIR:
(note pctm only did 4 laps in the GTA at Riverside and was still over 1 second faster than the fastest Boss 429)
http://91.121.155.150:55001/lapstat...s_429&valid=1,2&date_from=2018-02-01&date_to=

Visocane · Mar 5, 2018

Joshua Widder said:
Well your candor is appreciated, I will look into the tires more when I do the testing, though they are really difficult to get right with no real data beyond dimensions. AC doesn't even have any stock bias-ply tires, all I could find were radials...

Yeah i belive you. I cant even imagin. Im having allready troubles with Setups on some Cars so i coudnt even think about modding.

I don't know if this has any relevance but the Tyrepressure you got for the Tyres is also low compared to other Cars with Vintage Tyres. Cold pressure for optimum pressure at 80° core is 26 Psi. All Street Tyres from Kunos have higher Values and the Vintages have even higher ones. I think i was running around 35-38 Psi on the GTA/Shelby Cobra. I think you coud import the Tyres from the Alfa or Shelby and just adjust the Parameters like the Rims, width and the Tyrewall. If you have a realistic Value for the Friction a Tyre had in this era you might get a good result. Im just puting in some Ideas from another point of View. Dont know how you approached the Tyres at all.

Joshua Widder · Mar 5, 2018

I own a 70's classic and the standard pressures for that car are 24 cold, so not necessarily true... I will again see if I can find documentationn to give any insight on true pressures

Tbear · Mar 6, 2018

Ben Dovah said:
...
To do list:

Probably more stuff I can't think of...

I'll release the skin when I finish the exterior, then update once I've made the interior look sufficiently nasty.
Feel free to suggest ways to improve the look. I'm open to suggestions.

I'm sure you thought to mess up those shiny wheels and chrome front bumper. Lose the Mustang emblem on the grill?