The Importance of Modding in Sim Racing

Richard Wilks · Jun 14, 2022

I just hope RennSport delivers the goods as a modding platform primarly for RACING.

I have nothing against AC, but it was never the best game to recreate many racing disciplines, and the way the community went is more the joyride thing, and rf2 unfortunately got too stuck in a swamp of broken updates and overly complicated processes.

RevSome · Jun 14, 2022

in the sim-world, would rather emulate villenueve vs. arnoux at dijon '79 than leclerc vs. verstappen at any modern circuit.
thank you modder community for recapturing so much lost historical content.

Julian Strasser · Jun 14, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
I just hope RennSport delivers the goods as a modding platform primarly for RACING.

Oh yeah, to me too, Rennsport, as well as Assetto Corsa 2, are great hopes for future modding platforms.

However, it all depends on how Rennsport is going to price their content as well as how the "real digital ownership" will be handled.

As a corporate entity, making friends is hard, but making enemies is very easy.

R Soul · Jun 14, 2022

Stereo said:
I don't know if you're phrasing it wrong, but AC has zero relation in sourcecode to any sim that came before it, it's not "rf1 with improvements" or something, it's a blank sheet of paper design by the people who built netkar and fva. (which are also not "based on gmotor2") AMS is the one that uses a heavily modified version of RF1.

Whoops! Wrong game beginning with A
:o

chrisracer · Jun 15, 2022

Modding is what keeps sims alive long after their time has gone. I still play GTL and GTR2. Why you may ask? Because of the dedication of modders that have created mods like the LeMans 67 or the P&G mod for GTR2. Assetto Corsa is my main goto game now because of the content available. Not quite as much as GTL but it is coming close.

If you don't think modding is important for sim life, ask yourself when is the last time you played pCars? A really nice game with good graphics and reasonable cars with handling. Non moddable. It could have been a great, great game but it was done in some cryptic code that has not been broken, so no new cars, no new tracks. Bye bye, I've got other things to do.

Chazz Ranger · Jun 15, 2022

joemendel said:
I tend not to use mods. To me it seems like stealing from the original developers.

This is absolutely the weirdest take I've ever read on this site.

Jach · Jun 15, 2022

Just take a look at the data and you'll find a fun fact: Assetto Corsa had a "boost" of player number since the release of AMS 2 (showing the power of csp) and now it's more popular than ever in 2022.
AMS 2, which was released in 2020, while still being improved, still has no way near the number of players (even less than 1/10 of AC's) and even decreasing a little bit. Bad optimisation , disastrous multiplayer experience and those bugs that's been there since Project CARS 1 still not fixed are the factors but no modding support is also a key factor. AMS 2 does have mods but they're only illegal rips. Little to no modding support are keeping top-tier modding teams, and players away from this game

Jach · Jun 15, 2022

Jutschl said:
Oh yeah, to me too, Rennsport, as well as Assetto Corsa 2, are great hopes for future modding platforms.

However, it all depends on how Rennsport is going to price their content as well as how the "real digital ownership" will be handled.

As a corporate entity, making friends is hard, but making enemies is very easy.

Just saying... a question asked many times without a yes, 99% likely means no. AC 2 is the case... It 99% won't have official modding support because if it will, Kunos would have already confirmed it. Rennsport developers' not hesitating to confirm modding support is a good comparison

THK84 · Jun 15, 2022

Jach said:
AMS2.. Bad optimisation

Have nothing to disagree on all other points, but I have no clue what you are talking about here. It's one of the smoothest running sims I've ever played. On my previous particular PC setup (current one runs both great) it ran smoother in VR that AC (with all the obligatory mods of course). Am I missing something?

balamacab · Jun 15, 2022

Peter Kerényi said:
Modding is very good, but I don't have a positive outlook on the modding scene of the future. Let me explain why.

As graphics, physics, etc. get more and more advanced it is becoming harder to match what developers are able to achieve in one's free time. We can already see with AC how the modding scene changed from the "old" model, where pretty much everything used to be free, to the current model where it's very often monetized.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that an extraordinary amount of work goes into making the latest RSS and VRC cars. And they are truly high quality creations. However I really don't want to see simracing becoming a platform like flight simulation, where the price of the whole sim is the same as the price of a single, albeit high quality, piece of content. But as the fidelity of content is getting higher, the amount of work is also going to get higher and the price is also going to get higher.

At that point I would no longer call it "modding".

I would also like to touch the subject of conversions. I am not against conversions. The majority of high quality free mods in my "library" in the last years come from conversions (GT, FH). I usually also own the original game the car came from so I don't feel any guilt or anything by using those mods. (As a side note I view selling scratch made unlicensed cars where only the name/badge/livery is changed at the same level morally). But unfortunately even conversions are getting monetized often, which is very very out of line.

So as a TLDR modding scene is rather becoming a business scene, where you either sell your scratch made content or in a worse case converted content for prices that far exceed the price/content in the original game and I fear it's only going to get worse in the future.

Hi, modder here. Open simulators are more a platform, each with it's own toolbox and features, and many people use them not only to play but to train an skill.
Is challenging to put a contend for free where your have spend dozen hours in to creating a track. Plus even more challenging if you take the time/money to lay your hand in to lidar data or dtm file to have a more accurate reproduction.
The donation button does not work, I haven't received enough donations to buy a meal, and people brags because graphics are not "cool" or your track is junk.
A pro driver wants accurate surface details, a nice graphics but not cutting edge. And are willing to pay for that resource to be able to train and improve their skills and appreciate your effort not only paying for your work but giving constructive feedback from their own experience.
There still gonna be free contend, and other will be paying, although if you create a mod from passion, is welcome to have some money in you pocket to drink a beer thanks to the many hours spent creating a contend for a simulator and not receiving bricks thrown your way because some troll thinks your work is bad.
I think it's in the hand of the community to keep models motivated to continue releasing some of their work for free.

Jach · Jun 15, 2022

THK84 said:
Have nothing to disagree on all other points, but I have no clue what you are talking about here. It's one of the smoothest running sims I've ever played. On my previous particular PC setup (current one runs both great) it ran smoother in VR that AC (with all the obligatory mods of course). Am I missing something?

Ah yes, you missed the replay part. On all other occasions this game is not even a challenge to my GPU, but when watching replay the FPS just drop from 165 (I limit that to 165) to less than 40. Maybe my 3070 is too weak for AMS2 if I'm using a 3090Ti I might not be complaining aboutit, but this 165-to-35 drop is so dramatic.

Peter Kerényi · Jun 15, 2022

balamacab said:
Hi, modder here. Open simulators are more a platform, each with it's own toolbox and features, and many people use them not only to play but to train an skill.
Is challenging to put a contend for free where your have spend dozen hours in to creating a track. Plus even more challenging if you take the time/money to lay your hand in to lidar data or dtm file to have a more accurate reproduction.
The donation button does not work, I haven't received enough donations to buy a meal, and people brags because graphics are not "cool" or your track is junk.
A pro driver wants accurate surface details, a nice graphics but not cutting edge. And are willing to pay for that resource to be able to train and improve their skills and appreciate your effort not only paying for your work but giving constructive feedback from their own experience.
There still gonna be free contend, and other will be paying, although if you create a mod from passion, is welcome to have some money in you pocket to drink a beer thanks to the many hours spent creating a contend for a simulator and not receiving bricks thrown your way because some troll thinks your work is bad.
I think it's in the hand of the community to keep models motivated to continue releasing some of their work for free.

You see this from the side of the modder and it's very welcome to hear your opinion, perspective. Thank you. I see if from the perspective of a member of the community. In the days of GT2, rFactor 1, Race 07, etc. when I started there were no paid mods. Modders did it out of passion, shared it with the community. Quality of "official" content wasn't too advanced, modders seemed to be able to match it without too much trouble. I didn't lurk the forums that much back then, so I cannot talk about the problems of those times between modders and the community.

Fast forward to my point. Content is getting very detailed. So either A) the tools the modders have didn't advance at the same pace as quality increased, meaning modders need to spend a lot more time creating content and thus expect compensation (understandably), or B) the modding community's "general attitude" simply changed with the fast paced world we live in and thus they expect compensation. Either way it's not getting better.

I am leaning towards A, but that's something you are much more qualified to answer.

That said all respect to those who mod and create quality content, and additionaly to those who share it for free.

balamacab · Jun 15, 2022

From my experience I also lean to the option A.
Simply look at the openings at studios like reiza or studio 397. You have 3d modeler that create 3d assets with thousand of polygons, you have artists that texture those models using PBR, you have animators that add movements to some models, you have survey teams that digitize a site/racetrack...
A modder have to do all that by his/her own. Someone can be good at modeling but not that good at texturing, or know about the artistic pipeline but do not know how to use GIS data or georeferenced data in to the model... Or can create the track in a modeling tool but don't know to to configure it to run in a simulator.
A modder needs to to know all that plus more, so it have became extremely time consuming.

Richard Wilks · Jun 15, 2022

I honestly don't think any modder should expect compensation, and i speak as a modder myself.

Sure, its time consuming, and it involves a big amount of personal, and sometimes financial investment. But a modder like me, mods the stuff I want to race. The fact that i later share them with others is just a by product. Altough i do agree that getting stupid comments about your work from ungrateful idiots is demotivating.

If i am modding things, and i am making them only available behind a paywall, then i am not a modder anymore, i am a third party content creator, and i am also crossing copyright laws usually. Now, i know these have been ignored, or circunvented somewhat, but thats the cold truth.

balamacab · Jun 15, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
I honestly don't think any modder should expect compensation, and i speak as a modder myself.

Sure, its time consuming, and it involves a big amount of personal, and sometimes financial investment. But a modder like me, mods the stuff I want to race. The fact that i later share them with others is just a by product. Altough i do agree that getting stupid comments about your work from ungrateful idiots is demotivating.

If i am modding things, and i am making them only available behind a paywall, then i am not a modder anymore, i am a third party content creator, and i am also crossing copyright laws usually. Now, i know these have been ignored, or circunvented somewhat, but thats the cold truth.

That's depends in the definition of fair use in your country.
For example studio 397 did not secure the Monaco name, so they made the track and named Cote d' Azure.
If I'm not steeling other people's work (like a unauthorized conversion), use public available data or procured legally (buying dataset from distributors), create my own models from the gathered data, and not exploit for my own the venue name, why can't I sell that product to a driver that wants a fine detailed surface model?
That cloud be the difference, when you take out the gamification of a simulator and see it as a tool, your definition of a mod also change.
And that's something than only a simulator can bring, ej: you model a light plane in FS that underneath use the Cessna physics, so you can pretend to fly that plane that you modeled... Or you can model all the physics aspect of that plane and now you're be flying the digital counterpart of the real thing and 1% of the people will interested to fly that model that to train and gain experience. The vast majority will be more than happy with the model that flights like a Cessna.
I have used that approach for a car model in rF2 for a private league, people where happy driving it but it was not the real physics from the modeled car (and would never sold something that's not my work).

I'll surely create more free track models, special the ones that no one will drive like the ones from my country; but if there's an opportunity to create a track with high physics details, that a driver(s) may need, i'll create it and sell it; it may not became an staple for online game, it may not be the most graphical impressive track, but it will genuinely help someone accomplish their goal in real life; and people thank you for that.

Stereo · Jun 15, 2022

Peter Kerényi said:
Fast forward to my point. Content is getting very detailed. So either A) the tools the modders have didn't advance at the same pace as quality increased, meaning modders need to spend a lot more time creating content and thus expect compensation (understandably), or B) the modding community's "general attitude" simply changed with the fast paced world we live in and thus they expect compensation. Either way it's not getting better.

I am leaning towards A, but that's something you are much more qualified to answer.

Really it's a variant of A, but the reality is that first party content is produced at a slower pace than it used to be, and modders who want to match that detail have to spend longer as well. Game companies can work around this because the timeline (maybe 6-12 months work for a track) is still shorter than the overall development cycle of a new game, but they do it by hiring larger teams.

Patrik Marek · Jun 15, 2022

its' really simple
car used to be a one or two 2048x2048 textures , model being about 10k triangles

now almost every texture that you make comes with additional specular / roughness / normal map / bump map, and car triangles went up to 300k-400k, every small detail modeled and texured

so where back in a day of FULLTIME work, I was able to make a car within 2 weeks, now it's more like 3 months of fulltime , this is why it's so much slower to make at least the car model
I'm sure for sound this is also more complex now with things like FMOD, and I'm sure physics evoloved too

so it's like what Stereo says, the official game devs solve this but having more people , and trying to have them specialized ( person doing model is likely not the same person doing the textures ..etc)

so if the mods were to be done better / faster, you will need more people in the team as well , and because it takes so much longer to begin with, you can't really do thsi in your free time anymore, and to that the only answer is a $$$

having official team that does this as their full time job, youcan still keep up and prodceg reat content with good speed / efficiency , I think we see this work with some of the modding teams like RSS , although not sure if they are full time

and while for things like environments , there are now some shortcuts where you can share quite a few of the meshes, use things like megascans and what not, for cars, this has never been the case and it's often redone from scratch

you can have internal library where you re-use parts , but you will still have to build a lot of stuff from scratch

maybe after doing this for a long time, you end up with library for things like steering wheels, racing seats, breaks, calipers, rims, tires ,and you start to get efficiecny / speed boosts, but for the car bodies, you will still have to do a lot of that work

stenovitz · Jun 15, 2022

Just now had time for a response on this subject.
At a glance I thought the article was solely aimed for 'pro' modders, but just glanced half of page 1 response.

As a mod-consumer, modding is near everything to me. For a lifespan since my mid 20ies and mid 90ies first mod releases for GP2 on CD, the amount of "mod driving/racing" has been my main driving force for now +quarter of a century in GP2, GP3, GP4, GPL, F1C99-02, GTR, GTR2, GTL, rFactor, SimBin family (WTCC, Race07, GTR Evolution, WTCC10, STCC, STCC2, RaceOn, etc), Reiza releases SCx and Copa Petrobras, AC, rF2 and lately catchup on absorbing any quality mod for AMS1 after conversion of some of my beloved rF mods in order to VR race them all.

A huge part of this for me is track modding, being a "trackhunter" and interested in older closed track history, starting a decade before the GP2 release.
Though, even now and then, the track modding society has been able to both increase my track history formation - two good examples are both from 2008 rF1 track mods; Sitges-Terramar, of which I 10 year earlier drove just in the vicinity of. And "Unforgotten Nivelles". Got really embarrased by that time not knowi g these, but also a relief that sim modding is able to teaching history.

My own mods are limited to BTB Free Trial and Steam Pro version track building, I would not exactly say up to common RD d/l section standards

Though ok satisfied with a couple or three, including 1 real world modding of my driver license proving grounds of which I 10 years later tested a Reynard SF84 at full throttle, then adding artificial pitboxes.
And about same time my by then 2½ yo daughters project, her pointing with pacifyer in her mouth for me what to do using BTB Pro, ending up driving four seasons and 5 continents in a 6k lap passing tamed and wild animals in their reservate/habitat with my kid between me and the wheel...and then realized this track turned out to be in fact quite competition suited and not just for buggy cars, but classic GTs and even early 90ies single seater races as well. Now driving same track again 5 years later in VR, after conversion to AMS1. Well done, kid!

Stimulating in itself, but fully understand other motivation factors for our society's beloved 'pro' modders.

THK84 · Jun 16, 2022

Jach said:
Ah yes, you missed the replay part. On all other occasions this game is not even a challenge to my GPU, but when watching replay the FPS just drop from 165 (I limit that to 165) to less than 40. Maybe my 3070 is too weak for AMS2 if I'm using a 3090Ti I might not be complaining aboutit, but this 165-to-35 drop is so dramatic.

Thank you for the clarification. My bad

Ghoults · Jun 16, 2022

Personally I don't see a problem with paid mods. If someone or a group of people want to release soemthing for a price then let them. I can choose to buy it or not. If it is good quality and lines up with my interests then maybe I'll buy it. But the chances are the mod will see no use online. Being paid mod is a huge divider for community. I have not raced any of my paid ac rss cars online ever for example. There just are no servers with people. I can only run them offline which is rare. Fun but rare. Not the fault of rss or their content. And while it is a problem that could be solved there are obviously risks that rss is not going to take.

If all mods suddenly become paid mods I'd feel it would be very detrimental to online racing. Even if the cost was 1€ per car. or 10 cents per car it would still mean you need to get your credit card out everytime you see a server with interesting content. And you don't need just one car and one track, chances are you need several. How many of those are even good quality? Not all mods are worth the money. Is it a good user experience to have money involved everytime you want to drive a car or do a race? I don't think so and for the average modder that would just mean that basically nobody would even get to try their content because people are not going to open their wallet everytime they boot up a sim.

As someone who has released a track I'd prefer to not have money involved in anyway. That way I have total independence about my actions. I can simply leave and change hobbies if I want. I can take the content down. I can give it away for free, completely. Or do whatever I want without having to think about the consequences. I can choose to keep the content up to date with software updates and new features. Or not worry about it at all. If there is a bug I can choose to fix it or not. It's free and it comes as is. I can focus on having just the feature set I feel I want. Not the complete featureset available with basegame plus popular addons, or add things later when they become must-haves.

With paid mod comes the (sometimes unsaid) requirement to fix bugs QUICKLY, keep paid parties involved of new versions, deal with monetary transaction issues and have the expected feature set. Solve issues. If the content is released with missing features then the expectation is to add those later. Could be lods, better sounds, damage stuff, layouts etc.. If you don't do that then people will feel duped to some degree. And rightfully so imho.

Paid means higher quality expectations. But what if I just don't have time? What if I said on the store page that I won't update anything and then a game patch comes and makes the content blue screen the pc? In worst case that could escalate into a wider issue within the community and would certainly hurt my reputation. And the reputation of the game too. I think with paid mods comes a responsibility and not everyone understand what it means. Or think they can just put some disclaimers and not have to worry about it.

tr1v1um said:
Once again you talk complete nonesense about rF2 modding.

Nice to see you too.

tr1v1um said:
You should atleast make the effort search for the right page in in the dev section before you blindly accuse a software for being hard to mod. It's a matter of five minutes to see that there is alot more documentation, obviously enough to get wheels moving.

Enough to get moving, 90% of the work still undocumented and needs to be reverse engineered, guessed. It takes 10 much as time to work with rf2 as it takes with ac and that is all about problem solving which is caused by lack of documentation on all and essential features.

tr1v1um said:
And sounds aren't moddable in rF2? What the hell are you smoking? There are modding teams who adjusted their car sounds for the new sound engine allready, without any documentation. How is that possible when it is impossible?

It is obvious that by sound mods I meant sound mods for existing content. In ac I can take any car made by anyone, put new sound files to it and race it online without any compatibility issues. Can rf2 do that? If rf2 does that (please link some mods) and I'll happily admit I was wrong. In fact I'd make my own sound mod for the road car corvette right away if that is the case.

tr1v1um said:
You don't start modding simply due to knowing how a few folder and file structures are set up. Where the hell are you pulling this stuff from?

From my own experience modding rf2.

The Importance of Modding in Sim Racing

The Obvious: Modding Brings Content​

The Beautiful: Modding Improves Visuals​

The Meaningful: Modding Digitalizes History​

The Powerful: What WE Can Create​

Thanks​

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< 1 year

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< 25 years

Ok, I am a dinosaur

The Obvious: Modding Brings Content

The Beautiful: Modding Improves Visuals

The Meaningful: Modding Digitalizes History

The Powerful: What WE Can Create

Thanks