Motorsport Games Delays Indycar Title Past 2023

Richard Wilks said:

Whats the matter with "being negative"?

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Ultimately, that's your own choice. If you want to live your life being negative, go for it.

Richard Wilks said:

We don't work for you, or MSG, most of the people here in this thread are disgruntled costumers, who were expecting an indycar game, and instead got an empty hand of nothing after an unusable Nascar game. This after the studio to which YOU sold out made an exclusive deal with Indycar that basically excludes any possibility of anybody else having a crack at it any time soon.

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Just to set the record straight on this. Studio 397 was fully owned by Luminis, therefore the shareholders in Luminis made the decision to accept the $16M offer to buy the studio. From a shareholder perspective, I can't blame them.

I agree that N21 was not a good game. Even MSG realize that now, in hindsight. They need to make sure that their next game is good. That's not an easy task.

Richard Wilks said:

So you want a tissue for all this "negativety"?...


I am sick and tired of all this "ohhh poor devs feelings" crap. You are SELLING something, you are not doing us any favours, you are basically a game Dev THANKS TO US THE CLIENTS. So grow a pair and own up to your part of the deal, just like is asked of any of us in our professional activities.

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Any company that sells products to consumers is in this boat. No tissues needed, thank you, I'm a big boy. But the point I was trying to make is more general, and that is one of just being respectful to one another.

guidofoc said:

This is going really bad. They lost $36 millions in a single year and nothing is ready. Even if they publish the game in 2024 how can the investors be confident it's not mediocre at best? And hey it's not that the devs will work for free this year. So they'll find themselves with like 50M loss and only a hope to sell millions of copies. Good luck.

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Careful about this figures. You can easily put expenses to lower your result one year, although a part concerns WIP projects and then shouldn't impact the result, but it si a way to "create" better results the next several years (as these expenses won't be amortized the next few years with the expenses of the future complete projects). It's accounting magic, so it doesn't really mean a lot. It is a common practice, a way of keeping making promises to shareholders and it works between 4 o 5 years (after that shareholders understand they have been fooled and just resale everything they can).

You can see also $9.6M of goodwill impairement, which is basically an accounting adjustment stating that the value of the assets the company had bought is much lower than the initial price. This is not an operational expense (that's why it is eliminated to calculate the EBITDA), it is just the result of incompetent (or corrupted) management, incompetent (or corrupted) auditors, incompetent (or corrupted) bankers, naive (or corrupted) shareholders, and bad negociations in the previous years.

Without any details, these figures are highly doubtful and have no meaning. What it shows though, is that the shareholders and the employees should really put their nose in all the accounts by themselves. The only information which worse something, are about the cash. This company just burns cash. For what? We don't know. If it is to create assets which potentially can be sold in the future to other companies, it's ok. If it is just for operational expenses, this is a major issue. We don't have enough information for that and MSG can tell the story they want.

Marcel Offermans said:

Responsibilities that every member of this forum has really. Thanks for reminding us all and good luck with your new adventure!

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??? What Ian means is that as a competitor and fellow game developer it is more elegant to keep your mouth shut. But this is a public forum populated by sim racers and Motorsport Games has so far:

1. Published a game that was comically bad (Nascar 21 Ignition, check the success here: https://steamdb.info/app/1439300/charts/).
2. Published another game for Nintendo Switch (Nascar Heat Ultimate) that "feels like a game right out of the mid-2000s".
3. Announced the delay of a BTCC game (license lost?)
4. Gave a terrific show at the LeMans virtual 24h this year with current F1 champion Max Verstappen so impressed he advised to go ahead and uninstall RF2.
5. Took away the license for IndyCar from its competitors back in 2021 and now merrily announces that their game won't be ready by 2023 as promised.
6. Spent a boatload of money this far and has no money left to spend so they're asking for more (sure it's their problem but speaks volumes on how well these guys do business)
7. Saw its NASDAQ stock value plummet to death.
8. Shall I continue?

So let me understand, you are expecting us to give "constructive" criticism on this?

Ian, Marcel, Austin, et al.

Your employment within the simracing profession obviously constrains your responses regarding the state of affairs at MSGM, and your own sense of professionalism likewise cautions restraint in such matters. The rest of us here are unfettered by such restrictions--I would suggest you simply let the community have its kiki and then learn the lessons of $MSGM's folly.

Marcel Offermans said:

Ultimately, that's your own choice. If you want to live your life being negative, go for it.


Just to set the record straight on this. Studio 397 was fully owned by Luminis, therefore the shareholders in Luminis made the decision to accept the $16M offer to buy the studio. From a shareholder perspective, I can't blame them.

I agree that N21 was not a good game. Even MSG realize that now, in hindsight. They need to make sure that their next game is good. That's not an easy task.


Any company that sells products to consumers is in this boat. No tissues needed, thank you, I'm a big boy. But the point I was trying to make is more general, and that is one of just being respectful to one another.

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Well as far as i can tell, decisions have consequences, and one should not be surprised if bad decisions have bad consequences.

As for the respect, nobody in this thread attacked anybody on a personal level as far as i see it. I am sure the Moderators here would be on top of that, and if not, you have a "report" button, so please, spare us the morality lessons. Its been 10 years of this "oh dont be negative, the devs are working hard". Enough is enough.

And this is not just about you or S397 or MSG, but this whole genre in general. Nobody should be shielded from criticism, specially if warranted.

Andy_J said:

Absolutely not. We have every right to criticise any company and especially bad ones with rotten CEO's and share holders. And we have had a few of those over the years.

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Shareholders are often wrongly pointed the finger at. They indeed are those who close companies, or push hard decisions to save them (too late in general). But in reality they are the last ones to know how bad a company, their property and investment, is. The big issue is the CEOs and the auditing companies who are paid to certify accounts before they are presented to the shareholders. This auditing companies being paid by the same people they are controlling, there's obviously a conflict of interests. this is the final equation : rotten CEO + small balls CFO + corrupted auditors = false reports. This is a big issue, auditors in theory work as independants for the States and the shareholders ; in practice they don't. There are countries were the employees has a right and the budget to ask for another independant analysis of the accounts but I've never seen anyone doing that (even with rights, employees do not have the will to go against their direction, even if it is working against the real employers, the shareholders).

A bit of a disgression there, but, it is important to understand there is no way a shareholder works against its own property. In general the strategy for a CEO is simple : you want the job, just promise anything you can to shareholders and investors : 3 years of negative results, yearly profitability the next years, and global profitability after 5 or 6 years.

During 3 years, you litterally hide some results (or create false expenses). It's ok, you had announced negative results, even if they are worse than expected, just make the show (it's part of your job as a CEO).

4th and 5th years : the company isn't as profitable as expected, or even not profitable at all, but you had previously hidden some positive results, and there you go, you are profitable as promised! What you haven't done though, is creating a strong business model ensuring the future of the company. And obviously you haven't been able to hide positive results these times.

Next years : problems begin, you have to find a solution, make the show. Ok it will last 2 or 3 years before the little game is discovered. And when it is done, shareholders are not happy, it's ok, you're still able to lie and go, after all these years of fun and good salaries, building your network, just let someone come in and liquidate the company and fire everyone. This is how it really works.

The worst thing is that, at the end, those who pay the high price are the employees, being the developpers or the support functions. These are not the people to blame. I'm sure not any of the MSG employees had wanted the Nascar Ignition debacle. They all want to make good games. This is just the result of the company head decision to meet its false promises to shareholders. The issue is that at one time or another, the lies don't work anymore and become obvious. What is incredible there, is that the lies haver been lasting for too much time considering they are public information. I still hope MSG shareholders will manage to get rid of all the incompetent or toxic people running (officially or not, it is question of influence) this company (which must not be more than 5 individuals), and find away to meet new reasonable objectives. For sure this will be at a loss of few people unfortunately.

Richard Wilks said:

Do you have all the tracks in the calendar, the oval cars, the race rules, the AI working properly in all those tracks?...

People seem to confuse having some indycar to actually having a game dedicated, like the codies F1 series.

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I get your point for sure but... You've played games from this company so it is also reasonable to assume the ai will suck anyway.

davehenrie said:

And yet there is a BTCC squad which IS sponsored by Rich Energy.

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Rich Energy is back to having a website under construction......

I'd put money on it being a way to wash things, not money, obviously. Nobody would run dirty money through motorsports using made up companies.....

Interesting that the topic is still that hot. Reading some comments here it's obvious that some people should tale a chill pill and relax. What is it that MSG has stolen from anyone and what is it that they owe us?

A company making too optimistic promises, reusing game engines and having financial issues? I heard that before and if I was evil and wouldn't know the headline I could ask if we are talking about Reiza, Simbin or Papyrus? For the people who seem to have an issue with rF2: when the product was developed by ISI without financial issues it was not good enough. Now that it has made great progress throughout the last months/years some people still can't get over it that the product isn't for them. Not sure if sad or funny

Shannon Flynn said:

I'm not one to trust anything that comes out of that Dmitri CEO dude's mouth.
But if he's actually SINCERE about delaying in order to improve the product and avoid another NASCAR 21 shitshow, it'd be quite a welcome move.

Another thing I found interesting is that he said that they're working with the Kartkraft devs. Didn't they pretty much nail being able to tweak the rF2 engine? If MSG's future titles can keep the ISI physics engine running the physics/ffb side of thing I'll be seriously psyched.

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Kartkraft devs? not sure but wasn't it done just by one guy? so they work with one remaining dev? no wonder it takes so long.

tr1v1um said:

Interesting that the topic is still that hot. Reading some comments here it's obvious that some people should tale a chill pill and relax. What is it that MSG has stolen from anyone and what is it that they owe us?

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For a start, they ripped off many customers with a broken Nascar game and have refused to fix it.

Injafaz said:

IndyCar are probably just waiting out the license period to end. The already have their money in the bank, so don't care if the game ever happens. In fact, with Motorsports games reputation, it's probably better it doesn't.

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same with iRacing... they are sitting this thing out... my impression is that Indycar was always a sidekick for them. All the newest, shiniest updates for cars, tracks and AI is focused on Nascar first.

iR bought World of Outlaws tho.. maybe they will strike again.

Andy_J said:

For a start, they ripped off many customers with a broken Nascar game and have refused to fix it.

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Gonna have to agree with you on this point. I could NOT convince Steam to refund that broken pile of crap game.

Everybody needs to chill the **** out, though, and see where things go

Nobody saw that coming!!!

I'm unconvinced this title will ever see the light of day, but I must admit I'm still hoping for its release, not because I entertain a fantasy of actually buying it, I'm just curious to see how bad what the 'finished' product will actually be like. Decent title or a complete and utter car crash?

I dont think any of us need another bad game. I'm not sure this company will survive til 24. Wishing nothing bad to anyone but I think the writing is on the wall

Andy_J said:

For a start, they ripped off many customers with a broken Nascar game and have refused to fix it.

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How about waiting before buying something, reading reviews and informing yourself about your options? Nobody forces anyone to buy anything. And if you exceed the refund period for games on Steam it is what it is. It's the same for any product out there. There are good and bad ones. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. It's very simple. I could write a long list of stuff that I would have liked to see fixed for our most popular sims/games but those studios work with limited budgets, manpower and sometimes they focus on other things than we desire. It's a freaking computer game and not the end of the world. How often does it happen that we buy stuff that isn't up to our expectations, too expensive and doesn't offer the right quality? That's life. I've been waiting for a good Metallica album since allmost 20 years now.

What I miss a bit in todays society is consumer responsibility. I don't want to pretend that the studios aren't at fault either, but allmost in every case there are two sides to the medal and both sides should do their homework before there is a transaction. Everyone with a somewhat decent understanding of game development could see that Nascar Ignition was a fail from miles away. When will people start to realize that we have more options than ever before to control our buying decisions? The Steam reviews speak for themself and the damage is done. I would go as far as saying that MSG has understood the issue and it's one of the reasons why you see the delays for the other games. And anyone who wonders why there is so much money burnt by MSG, it might be worth to make a reality check and ask yourself if the lisence fees that some car manufacturers, track owners or series shareholders demand aren't the real issue. The CEO is driving a sportscar and having parties eventhough his product needs work? I don't know but I have heard that allready before and it's nothing new, even in sim racing.

The reason why this whole discussion puzzles me a bit is because I have experienced a very different side of interaction with a studio that is under the MSG umbrella and I am not dumb enough to pretend that the progress would be possible without MSG. The guys from S397 have been very fast with reaction on user feedback, content fixes, content updates and core updates in recent months and if you have any idea who is part of that Studio or has been part in recent years it should be pretty clear that they are driven by passion for this genre same as Reiza, Kunos or S3. The development corner is huge and offers more info than I can ever obtain in my life. Who ever wishes that ship to sink should really take a look in the mirror and make a reality check.

tr1v1um said:

How about waiting before buying something, reading reviews and informing yourself about your options? Nobody forces anyone to buy anything. And if you exceed the refund period for games on Steam it is what it is. It's the same for any product out there. There are good and bad ones. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. It's very simple. I could write a long list of stuff that I would have liked to see fixed for our most popular sims/games but those studios work with limited budgets, manpower and sometimes they focus on other things than we desire. It's a freaking computer game and not the end of the world. How often does it happen that we buy stuff that isn't up to our expectations, too expensive and doesn't offer the right quality? That's life. I've been waiting for a good Metallica album since allmost 20 years now.

What I miss a bit in todays society is consumer responsibility. I don't want to pretend that the studios aren't at fault either, but allmost in every case there are two sides to the medal and both sides should do their homework before there is a transaction. Everyone with a somewhat decent understanding of game development could see that Nascar Ignition was a fail from miles away. When will people start to realize that we have more options than ever before to control our buying decisions? The Steam reviews speak for themself and the damage is done. I would go as far as saying that MSG has understood the issue and it's one of the reasons why you see the delays for the other games. And anyone who wonders why there is so much money burnt by MSG, it might be worth to make a reality check and ask yourself if the lisence fees that some car manufacturers, track owners or series shareholders demand aren't the real issue. The CEO is driving a sportscar and having parties eventhough his product needs work? I don't know but I have heard that allready before and it's nothing new, even in sim racing.

The reason why this whole discussion puzzles me a bit is because I have experienced a very different side of interaction with a studio that is under the MSG umbrella and I am not dumb enough to pretend that the progress would be possible without MSG. The guys from S397 have been very fast with reaction on user feedback, content fixes, content updates and core updates in recent months and if you have any idea who is part of that Studio or has been part in recent years it should be pretty clear that they are driven by passion for this genre same as Reiza, Kunos or S3. The development corner is huge and offers more info than I can ever obtain in my life. Who ever wishes that ship to sink should really take a look in the mirror and make a reality check.

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Yup.
I'm not too clued up about who owns what and whooo did what to whoooo, but nobody needs to buy a game on release and those that feel they do are creating their own issues, (I know this because I bought a PS4 for GT7 and I don't play it... nowt t do)
Once bitten, twice... bitten!

MJQT said:

Following the news, Indycar itself responded to Racer Magazine stating: “We are evaluating this information and remain thoroughly committed to bringing the best quality video game products to the INDYCAR community.”

If they truly want the "best quality video game products" for the community, then please for the love of whatever deity you believe don't sign exclusive license deals. It's no coincidence the late 90s early 00s golden era of video games for series like Formula One (innumerable console titles, Geoff Crammond, EA/ISI) and NASCAR (Papyrus, EA/ISI, Dirt to Daytona) came when all kinds of developers were releasing licensed titles for different platforms.

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Agree ... before MSG got the exclusive license none of the other game devs showed any interest in developing and IndyCar game. IMO people should go bitch to them instead....

tr1v1um said:

That's life. I've been waiting for a good Metallica album since allmost 20 years now.

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Couldn't of said it better myself. And the rest of what he said too.