rFactor 2 GT3 update announced for February 7th

sbabb said:

It kind of is, but thats beside the point, since it isnt like that is anywhere near a priority, sometimes other things are more benficial to fix, like what they did now. Considering hosting a game is possible right now, even if its not a one click solution its still super easy to do whilst following the guide on the website.

10 years is also not totally right with how the ownership of the game played out and what the game was meant to do/be initially, multiplayer was never really a priority under ISI, that became a thing later and with S397 things changed again with DLC to finance the game and bring the content we have, which started the whole argument with owning all dlc to race online after the CS launched and last year it came up with LFM, this tho has now been adressed in the recent annoucement, that was a relic from the game not being meant to have pay DLC initially.

In short what I want to say is that it may be a big issue for you, which is fine with me, but that does not mean its a priority in what gets done, sucks for those that want their thing to be tackled first but thats how it goes. That doesnt mean that the people working at improving a game are lazy/incompetent/stupid etc, sometimes the benefit of doing something are not worth the effort at a certain time.

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It's an issue that has been getting pointed out since RF2's very first days. I've been with RFactor 2 since basically day 1 back in 2012 or 2014 or whatever it was. It was an issue then, it's still an issue today 8-10 years later.

Do you know how many times I've tried to join a MP race in RF2 where I can't join because the game wont allow players to join even if they have the current track? It's happened a ton of times. My friends who'd come over would either laugh in frustration and comment on how stupid the game is for not letting you join a server unless you have a bunch of other random tracks installed even though you do in-fact have the currently used track installed. So after failing to join 2 or 3 different servers and getting the same absolutely non-nonsensical result, we'd just give-up, start up Automobolista 1 or rFactor 1 and...BAM the first server we'd join worked - it didn't matter if we didn't have a track that the server might...could...may possibly switch to (and why should it matter? Lol), all that mattered is we have the CURRENT content, period.

"Sorry, you can't join my server right now because, although you have the current track we're racing on, you don't have tracks that I may switch to in an hour or 2. You might not even be playing in an hour or 2, you might not even care to play on those other tracks, but, sorry, I still won't let you join our current game for which you do have all content for unless you pointlessly download and install those future tracks even though they have absolutely nothing to do with you trying to join & play with us right now"..........

....Like what in the...??? Why would anyone in their right mind even create such a limitation like that in the first place let alone not fix it after 8-10 years? And to try and suggest such a humongous & ridiculous limitation isn't a priority shows that you or S397 - or whoever thinks that - is completely out of touch with the real world.

Shannon Flynn said:

"someone mentioned" is the source of most disinformation

If the HDR in rF2 is not "true", they sure are doing a hell of a job faking it. It's right up there with the HDR in all the AAA non-racing games I play.

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So RF2 does support HDR?

Spinelli said:

It's an issue that has been getting pointed out since RF2's very first days. I've been with RFactor 2 since basically day 1 back in 2012 or 2014 or whatever it was. It was an issue then, it's still an issue today 8-10 years later.

Do you know how many times I've tried to join a MP race in RF2 where I can't join because the game wont allow players to join even if they have the current track? It's happened a ton of times. My friends who'd come over would either laugh in frustration and comment on how stupid the game is for not letting you join a server unless you have a bunch of other random tracks installed even though you do in-fact have the currently used track installed. So after failing to join 2 or 3 different servers and getting the same absolutely non-nonsensical result, we'd just give-up, start up Automobolista 1 or rFactor 1 and...BAM the first server we'd join worked - it didn't matter if we didn't have a track that the server might...could...may possibly switch to (and why should it matter? Lol), all that mattered is we have the CURRENT content, period.

"Sorry, you can't join my server right now because, although you have the current track we're racing on, you don't have tracks that I may switch to in an hour or 2. You might not even be playing in an hour or 2, you might not even care to play on those other tracks, but, sorry, I still won't let you join our current game for which you do have all content for unless you pointlessly download and install those future tracks even though they have absolutely nothing to do with you trying to join & play with us right now"..........

....Like what in the...??? Why would anyone in their right mind even create such a limitation like that in the first place let alone not fix it after 8-10 years? And to try and suggest such a humongous & ridiculous limitation isn't a priority shows that you or S397 - or whoever thinks that - is completely out of touch with the real world.

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thats what I mean, its only an issue in certain situations, if the server is setup with a mod that has all kinds of tracks in it. Its not a limitation as it can be avoided by just not adding different tracks to that mod the server uses, its completly optional. Which is why is not that mega big of a problem right now, as most of the online racing has been done in leagues anyway for years.

What I mean is sure, a change in that regard would not be a bad thing, its just not the absolut single thing that should be tackled immediatly. The requirement for all cars to be owned is now being taken away after a lot of work, that was something that the community talked a lot about and was deemend to possibly never be possible, so thats one big win for the people that only want to buy single items.

Basically to avoid the track issue, the server just has to be setup so its no issue, which for the current/and prior to today, multiplayer usage in rF2 is not problematic, if the CS gets the overhaul it needs, this may be changed like you want, but that takes a bit more time yet, if the server multiplayer quick racing would be a thing, sure I would understand the need to have it changed (not that I know how that would be possible the way the game has been made to work since day one, but they found a way for cars, so halfway is here)

sbabb said:

thats what I mean, its only an issue in certain situations, if the server is setup with a mod that has all kinds of tracks in it. Its not a limitation as it can be avoided by just not adding different tracks to that mod the server uses, its completly optional. Which is why is not that mega big of a problem right now, as most of the online racing has been done in leagues anyway for years.

What I mean is sure, a change in that regard would not be a bad thing, its just not the absolut single thing that should be tackled immediatly. The requirement for all cars to be owned is now being taken away after a lot of work, that was something that the community talked a lot about and was deemend to possibly never be possible, so thats one big win for the people that only want to buy single items.

Basically to avoid the track issue, the server just has to be setup so its no issue, which for the current/and prior to today, multiplayer usage in rF2 is not problematic, if the CS gets the overhaul it needs, this may be changed like you want, but that takes a bit more time yet, if the server multiplayer quick racing would be a thing, sure I would understand the need to have it changed (not that I know how that would be possible the way the game has been made to work since day one, but they found a way for cars, so halfway is here)

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So you're saying there's a way to setup a server to avoid this limitation? Really? That's news to me and hundreds if not thousands of other people. So, how do you do so? Please explain to me how you setup a server in RF2 which won't care or look at what tracks a joining player has aside from the track being used at the time of attempting to join.

Spinelli said:

So you're saying there's a way to setup a server to avoid this limitation? Really? That's news to me and hundreds if not thousands of other people. So, how do you do so? Please explain to me how you setup a server in RF2 which won't care or look at what tracks a joining player has aside from the track being used at the time of attempting to join.

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This has allways worked, as long as there was just one single track in the vmod being used by the server. That's how LFM is doing it and it works great. You log into LFM via your browser of choice, register for a race session, go racing, leave rF2 once the race session is over and check the raceresults via the LFM website. As the loading times have decreased considerably the last two or three years, this isn't such a big issue anymore.

The problem with the vmods is that people have used it in all kind of wierd ways, including S397 with their CS, where you need all the tracks that are run in a series. I hope that they see that the way LFM is doing it is much better. Or they improve the join requirements, but that requires additional work. The series vmods are in theory good but only as long as they are used in a well structured environment or to create offline championships. I would not try to get rid of them, but to enhance their functionality.

Spinelli said:

So you're saying there's a way to setup a server to avoid this limitation? Really? That's news to me and hundreds if not thousands of other people. So, how do you do so? Please explain to me how you setup a server in RF2 which won't care or look at what tracks a joining player has aside from the track being used at the time of attempting to join.

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Why you have to talk down to people like this? Really ? like they don't know what they talking about.
Rather it is your problem you have not given enough thought to it or even googled you would have come up the same thing some servers have done for 10 years.
Make rfmods for single format.
Most servers will run at least 1 hour ( 1st practice to race finish ) So you are reloading server a few minutes no big deal and long enough for drink and the loo for drivers.

============================

Tell me this what do you think of rF2 being the only sim you can run more then one car without leaving room online or offline ?
Why don't you go ask all those other sim's forums why they can't do something so simple.
I bet if it was introduced to any other sim people would call it a game changer, which is right imho. There are many advantages to it if you take time to think about it not least drastically reducing multiple session reloads

You get to jump in the next car immediately so you don't cool down or anything else. Of course you could do opposite and take 3 minute break to watch lap times or data not loading screens every time you want a different car.

Nothing ?

Spinelli said:

So you're saying there's a way to setup a server to avoid this limitation? Really? That's news to me and hundreds if not thousands of other people. So, how do you do so? Please explain to me how you setup a server in RF2 which won't care or look at what tracks a joining player has aside from the track being used at the time of attempting to join.

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He has posted about it several times. Essentially you make an rFmod with all the cars & tracks you want, or several individual mods, then host them online. You can then connect with your same computer and have access to every car you put in the mod. Tarmac Terrorist also made a couple of videos that explain how to include all the cars you want.
That is the general over view. I'm not a detail guy

Exactly right.
1. Setup dedicated server folder ( Steamcmd) 10 minutes
2. Install content to it you want to test, preferably one class GT3 , BTCC , LMP/Hyper
but you can add up to 25 individual models to a rfmod ( limit booting server) 30 minutes to hours depending on way you do it ( re-download or copy paste )
3. Make rfmod 5 minutes ( you must run the same rfmod in both copies of rF2 )
4. Boot server add rfmod make room private
5. Start Steam join your server
6. In garage you notice new tab you don't see offline
7. click on it to swap cars and skins
8. All fastest laps in all cars you drive will be retained

So hotlap 12 GT3 cars no reloads.

Pros you get no lag or anything else you would associate with online.

Cons you need to do a second install of all content you want to use in server so good to have 100GB spare for dedicated server folder. You can get away with manually installing through mod manager, that way you don't need to re-download them or have anything in workshop\content, just copy the packages to the dedicated folder, install content, install rfmod.

Every thing you described seems like a big work around for a flawed system. First of all, you have to have a second install? OK that right there is comical.

2nd of all, you're telling me with the method described, a server can, at any time, simply select a different track to race on and that's it, the server will immediately load the next session/weekend/track for all players (unless of course the player doesn't have the track installed), and that's it? And players can join that server at any time even if they only have 1 track installed in their entire RF2 directory (the currently used track)? I would love to see a video of this because I'venever seen this or heard of this, ever, for RF2.

Durge Driven said:

Most servers will run at least 1 hour ( 1st practice to race finish ) So you are reloading server a few minutes no big deal and long enough for drink and the loo for drivers.

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So you have to shut the server down, essentially kicking all players out of the game, chat to all players in the server and say to them "hi everyone, please exit the game or you will be kicked, and in a few minutes you can try refreshing the MP server list to see if my server is back online with the new track, and then you can re-join", then go out of game and re-set up the new server and launch it. Oh, and on top of all that, you have to make another rfcmp mod (or whatever it's called) for whatever new track you and/or the other players voted to race on....

While in RF1, AMS1 if I'm admin, all I have to do is move my PC mouse, click on change track, click on load, and finished, the next track loads. Takes 5 seconds, 5 seconds. Heck, I can even do it within in-game if I create the server from in-game without even using the out-of-game server tool (I used to do this a lot) but that's another story entirely which RF2 also lacks as well.

Durge Driven said:

Tell me this what do you think of rF2 being the only sim you can run more then one car without leaving room online or offline ?
Why don't you go ask all those other sim's forums why they can't do something so simple.
I bet if it was introduced to any other sim people would call it a game changer, which is right imho. There are many advantages to it if you take time to think about it not least drastically reducing multiple session reloads

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It's a nice feature and convenient but it's not a game-changer or even that big. Seriously, think about it. How long does it take, and how much work is it, for a player to click "exit", click "load" and wait 10-20 seconds to re-join the game? It's barely any time or work. That's not even comparable to an entire server being shut down, warning all players of the shutdown & the upcoming new server, all players being kicked from the game, re-starting a new server, waiting/hoping players re-join. They're not even remotely comparable to each other in any way, shape, or form.

Spinelli said:

Every thing you described seems like a big work around for a flawed system. First of all, you have to have a second install? OK that right there is comical.

2nd of all, you're telling me with the method described, a server can, at any time, simply select a different track to race on and that's it, the server will immediately load the next session/weekend/track for all players (unless of course the player doesn't have the track installed), and that's it? And players can join that server at any time even if they only have 1 track installed in their entire RF2 directory (the currently used track)? I would love to see a video of this because I'venever seen this or heard of this, ever, for RF2.

So you have to shut the server down, essentially kicking all players out of the game, chat to all players in the server and say to them "hi everyone, please exit the game or you will be kicked, and in a few minutes you can try refreshing the MP server list to see if my server is back online with the new track, and then you can re-join", then go out of game and re-set up the new server and launch it. Oh, and on top of all that, you have to make another rfcmp mod (or whatever it's called) for whatever new track you and/or the other players voted to race on....

While in RF1, AMS1 if I'm admin, all I have to do is move my PC mouse, click on change track, click on load, and finished, the next track loads. Takes 5 seconds, 5 seconds. Heck, I can even do it within in-game if I create the server from in-game without even using the out-of-game server tool (I used to do this a lot) but that's another story entirely which RF2 also lacks as well.

It's a nice feature and convenient but it's not a game-changer or even that big. Seriously, think about it. How long does it take, and how much work is it, for a player to click "exit", click "load" and wait 10-20 seconds to re-join the game? It's barely any time or work. That's not even comparable to an entire server being shut down, warning all players of the shutdown & the upcoming new server, all players being kicked from the game, re-starting a new server, waiting/hoping players re-join. They're not even remotely comparable to each other in any way, shape, or form.

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You can't swap tracks without creating a new vmod. You are asking for two different things now. As said a hundred times, the vmod creation has the purpose to avoid mismatches that were a problem in rF1/AMS1 equally and to make the sim less prone to cheating. In theory it's a nice thought, but that happened long before Steam, the workshop and DLCs were on the table for rF2. If that might change with the new package system, is another story. That might be on the to-do-list aswell and so far we don't have clear information what's in the new update and what's not. My wish for the system is a P2P-system similar to AMS2 or PC2, but it might still have issues as those two games are closed platforms and rF2 isn't. Apples and oranges.

You have to look at it from a practical standpoint nowadays: if you want to create a system like iRacing - and that's their ultimate goal - the system that we have in rF2 is sufficient enough allready. Normally you don't swap tracks like your undies in a structured online racing environment. You run a certain track and car combo for a week, then you change it. I think you really should give LFM a try to see how it works if you are not sure about it. In LFM you also see a a list with the content that you need for a certain session.

I think we all can agree that rF2 needs more work in the online structure and server information side, matchmaking and server hosting, but it's certainly not as bad as some people make it. What alot of people forget is that you - no matter if it's AMS1, AC, rF1 or rF2 - you still need to make sure all your buddies have the same content. And in that regard the vmods are better, because they tell you what's missing and what's not and if you are the server provider, you can let your buddies download the stuff via your server. If you run a server with hundred modded tracks you are simply too dumb to understand that it is a bad idea. Sometimes less is more.

tr1v1um said:

You can't swap tracks without creating a new vmod. You are asking for two different things now.

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Not asking for 2 different things. That's what I've been saying from the start and the cause of tons of frustrations for thousands of players for 10 years.

tr1v1um said:

As said a hundred times, the vmod creation has the purpose to avoid mismatches that were a problem in rF1/AMS1

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Mismatches weren't a problem in RF1/AMS1. In RF1, etc. if you have the wrong content, you will either not be able to join or you will get kicked for having a mismatch. But you only need the current track being used, it doesn't matter if there are a bunch of tracks the the admin may feel like changing to in 1 minute, 1 hour, or 10 hours. Future tracks is completely irrelevant.

tr1v1um said:

My wish for the system is a P2P-system similar to AMS2 or PC2, but it might still have issues as those two games are closed platforms and rF2 isn't. Apples and oranges.

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I'm not sure what the P2P system is like but if you mean the server automatically allowing you to download the needed content from it, the possibility has existed in RF2 for a while - RF2 devs were trying to lessen the impact of the restriction I'm talking about so they eventually added this awesome feature. The problem is A. it's not always implemented by the server, B. when it is, download speeds are insanely slow, I'm talking practically like 1990s dial-up modem speeds (making the feature almost worthless), and C. you still need to download EVERY track, not just simply the current track being run on which, combined with the insanely slow download speeds, means you might be there for hours downloading. By the time the downloads are done, the server has shut down or every one has left the server.

tr1v1um said:

Normally you don't swap tracks like your undies in a structured online racing environment. You run a certain track and car combo for a week, then you change it.

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Ugghhhhhh...That's like saying, in Call of Duty or Battlefield, the same game mode and on the same map (ie. level) is run on endlessly for a week. Ummm, no. It's the complete opposite. Most mp games last 5 - 15 mins. Some do last a long time, like 40 mins if it's a really long game style and rules set. After that, they change map and sometimes even game-mode.

tr1v1um said:

If you run a server with hundred modded tracks you are simply too dumb to understand that it is a bad idea. Sometimes less is more.

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No, the system is currently too dumb to allow you to choose whatever track you want. There are hundreds of tracks available. The admin/server should be able to simply choose at any time what the next track is when completing the current race weekend, be it "restart race", "restart weekend", or loading a new track / weekend. There should be no requirement of having to pre-select 100 or 1000 tracks and then, on top of that, have every player be forced to download 100 or 1000 tracks just to play the current track. That, in and of itself, is what is dumb, not the people who want the ability to freely choose what track (ie. "map" or "level") to play on.

Spinelli said:

Not asking for 2 different things. That's what I've been saying from the start and the cause of tons of frustrations for thousands of players for 10 years.

Mismatches weren't a problem in RF1/AMS1. In RF1, etc. if you have the wrong content, you will either not be able to join or you will get kicked for having a mismatch. But you only need the current track being used, it doesn't matter if there are a bunch of tracks the the admin may feel like changing to in 1 minute, 1 hour, or 10 hours. Future tracks is completely irrelevant.

I'm not sure what the P2P system is like but if you mean the server automatically allowing you to download the needed content from it, the possibility has existed in RF2 for a while - RF2 devs were trying to lessen the impact of the restriction I'm talking about so they eventually added this awesome feature. The problem is A. it's not always implemented by the server, B. when it is, download speeds are insanely slow, I'm talking practically like 1990s dial-up modem speeds (making the feature almost worthless), and C. you still need to download EVERY track, not just simply the current track being run on which, combined with the insanely slow download speeds, means you might be there for hours downloading. By the time the downloads are done, the server has shut down or every one has left the server.

Ugghhhhhh...That's like saying, in Call of Duty or Battlefield, the same game mode and on the same map (ie. level) is run on endlessly for a week. Ummm, no. It's the complete opposite. Most mp games last 5 - 15 mins. Some do last a long time, like 40 mins if it's a really long game style and rules set. After that, they change map and sometimes even game-mode.

No, the system is currently too dumb to allow you to choose whatever track you want. There are hundreds of tracks available. The admin/server should be able to simply choose at any time what the next track is when completing the current race weekend, be it "restart race", "restart weekend", or loading a new track / weekend. There should be no requirement of having to pre-select 100 or 1000 tracks and then, on top of that, have every player be forced to download 100 or 1000 tracks just to play the current track. That, in and of itself, is what is dumb, not the people who want the ability to freely choose what track (ie. "map" or "level") to play on.

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The system isn't really too dumb, it's actually how you use it that matters. I think you are completely ignoring the fact that rF2 is a moddable platform with different modding sources having to interact. So it's not as easy as let's say in AMS2 or PC2 with the peer 2 peer systems that I mentioned, where you open a lobby as the server provider, choose your car and track combos that everyone has by default, make a few little settings and go racing with your friends. That's the perfect solution for what you are asking for but rF2 isn't a closed system.

In that regard it's actually funny that you mention Battlefield and Call of Duty, because those are franchizes that I spent alot of time with and I am still a part time dev of one of the two most popular BF2 mods. When Battlefield was moddable we had to use dedicated servers and we still do so. If you think that setting up a vmod and a server for rF2 is hard, then you have no idea how hard it is to mod BF2 and run servers for it, as networking is a pain in the a$$ and yet we managed to host 256 player servers around 2010 when average BF players had to accept 32 player servers. DICE got rid of this after BF2142 with zero mod support and moving to Frostbite Engine. Interestingly, that didn't amuse the BF die hard fans. Activion actually got rid of dedicated servers aswell after CoD 5 and moved to a peer to peer system due to the reasons you mentioned - no modding support anymore, 15 minute matches with constant map changes. Gaming fastfood to put it simple. Alot of people don't know that CoD1/UO until CoD5 had mod support where you could download the required content directly from the server - does that ring a bell? Difference was that at that time file sizes were tiny and that BF and CoD weren't aimed at console players, what they are today.

Any other way of handling something like a fun race lobby with your buddies where you swap the car and track combos every 15 minutes won't work in a moddable platform like rF2, AC or even AMS1, because you need to make sure beforehand that everyone of your friends has the same content installed. In that regard the vmod system is better than anything else because it tells you before joining the session what you are missing. And while alot of people complain that they can't join a server because they have don't have content x, y, z in rF2, they are forgetting that it is exactly the same in any other moddable platform, but they seem to rather get kicked than an access denied. Important reason for that is, that most AC servers only run official content. But if there is one single mod track for those big servers in the track rotation, you can be sure it's game over, because half the server would get kicked and people had to go on a lurk hunt.

tr1v1um said:

The system isn't really too dumb, it's actually how you use it that matters. I think you are completely ignoring the fact that rF2 is a moddable platform with different modding sources having to interact. So it's not as easy as let's say in AMS2 or PC2 with the peer 2 peer systems that I mentioned, where you open a lobby as the server provider, choose your car and track combos that everyone has by default, make a few little settings and go racing with your friends. That's the perfect solution for what you are asking for but rF2 isn't a closed system.

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I'm not ignoring the fact that RF2 is a moddable platform. That's completely irrelevant. The game knows what cars and tracks you're using. Whether that car/track was created by ISI/S397 or not has nothing to do with anything. Games know if your content is missing or doesn't match (wrong content altogether or wrong version) or whatever. The game knows this whether it's RF1, AMS1, AC, RF2, etc. Whether the author is ISI/S397 or not does not change anything regarding content detection.

tr1v1um said:

Any other way of handling something like a fun race lobby with your buddies where you swap the car and track combos every 15 minutes won't work in a moddable platform like rF2, AC or even AMS1, because you need to make sure beforehand that everyone of your friends has the same content installed.

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That's completely wrong. Absolute 100% false information. I used to do it all the time with RF1 and AMS1. It works 100%. I used to open servers all the time for me and friends and many, many random online players who would join for fun. The people joining only had to have installed the current track I was racing on, that's it. Meanwhile, I, as the server/admin, still had the ability to change to absolutely any track of the hundreds I had installed at any time. If the people on the server just-so-happened not to have the next track, then of course they'd get an automatic kick or a message saying "mismatch" letting them know they don't have the track. Then, if they feel like going to find and download the track, that's up to them. Or, I can simply choose another track every one has. I can even ask everyone in-game via chat (a track-specific vote implemented into the voting system would be a cool feature). But at least they can still join an online session while it's running a track they have, they don't have to download the 300+ tracks I have access to change to as the admin.

Side-note:
- what would be even more awesome is when the next track is loading, any player who doesn't have it would get an in-game pop-up allowing them the option to auto-download. Then, it's the player's choice. The auto-download could be implemented in different ways, directly from the server, from a website, from Steam Workshop, whatever.
- or, at least, a pop-up saying "hey, you don't have xxxxx track, you can always download it at xxxxxxxx.com (of course that's a customizeable message the admin would have to setup).
- or, at the very, very least, you simply get a pop-up saying the official name, official version, and official author of the track and, with those 3 pieces of information, you should be able search it online to download, unless it's in the Steam Workshop then it's even easier

tr1v1um said:

In that regard the vmod system is better than anything else because it tells you before joining the session what you are missing.

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How is that better? LOL. If I have the current track being used, why do I care about being forced into NOT being able to join just because I don't have other tracks that I potentially couldn't care less about racing on, not to mention, I may not even be playing anymore by the time those tracks are used?

Regarding being told what you need before joining the session, the game could still tell you what tracks the server may race on (if the admin has to pre-select the tracks list) without forcing you to download all of them just to join the current game.

tr1v1um said:

And while alot of people complain that they can't join a server because they have don't have content x, y, z in rF2, they are forgetting that it is exactly the same in any other moddable platform

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Seriously??? It's not exactly the same. Not even close! In another game with mods, all you need is the track being used when you try joining, that's it! You look at the server list, "oh hey, they're running '67 Spa v1.35 by S397, I'd love to play on that track and I have it", you click join, that's it. In RF2 though, you'll get a message saying "sorry, you can't join because you have to download 5 other tracks". "What? Why do I have to download 5 other tracks? Just let me join the damn game, I have the track being currently used. If the next track is one I don't have then I'll download it when...IF...the time comes. Why do I gotta spend the time looking for and downloading 5 tracks right now? I just want to join and do some bloody laps with others around '67 Spa!"

tr1v1um said:

...but they seem to rather get kicked than an access denied. Important reason for that is, that most AC servers only run official content. But if there is one single mod track for those big servers in the track rotation, you can be sure it's game over, because half the server would get kicked and people had to go on a lurk hunt.

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Yes, obviously, that's the problem when you use mods for online content, your chances of having people join are going to be way lower then using default content. I don't know what your point is. Yes, it sucks going on a lurk hunt. That's another reason why everything I'm saying applies even more. Why go on the lurk hunt for a bunch of tracks when you only care about playing the current one? Not to mention, for when you don't have the current track (or the track about to be switched to) there are many auto-download methods that could be implemented as I mentioned above in my "side-note".

I hope you are aware that you kind of agreed with me and I hope that you see that I am well aware of the issue. But I hope that you also understand why ISI went for the vmods system. They created the system to avoid people randomly joining and disconnecting because it actually affects performance, server stability and bandwith incase that you have a constant download process going on.


As much as you say that rF2 being a modding platform is irrelevant, it's actually the most cirtical point here. To have smooth pick up and play racing, that you are asking for, you need to make sure that the users can't manipulate their install. Thatswhy such a system works only well in closed ecosystems. It's the complete opposite of what you find in rF1, AMS1, and AC. As said, AC online racing only works well, if the server providers use no mods. Thatswhy it's allways GT3 or classic DTM cars at one of the default tracks or tourist layout with default content. I haven't run a single public online race on a modded AC track with multiple modded cars, because their system sucks even more. Now comes the point why rF2 especialy works a bit different: the whole online racing scene evolves around actually making use of 3rd party content and not ignoring it. Thatswhy the game tells you beforehand what you need. In rF1 it's even more difficult, when the people joining you have no idea what they are missing and it becomes a matter of luck if you aren't running the most popular mods, what you propably did. I am pretty sure your buddies knew beforehand what they needed and for the other people it was luck. This works very well in rF2 aswell btw. Create a server with the most popular mods and tracks and you have good participation. Simply take a look in the workshop and you know what people have. Or make it like LFM. I hope you have checked that by now to see where the train is going.

That rF1 and AMS1 required one step less might be all fun and dandy, but I don't see the fun in being kicked from the server nor not being able to connect to a server. rF games (this includes rF2, rF1 and AMS1) are just not made for fast paced server switching and the point is to make that bullet proof not just for you as a server provider, but for the multiple people who want to join you. Thatswhy it's actually called multiplayer. And while they are now able to make online racing against content you don't own possible, this might follow for the tracks aswell

tr1v1um said:

I hope you are aware that you kind of agreed with me and I hope that you see that I am well aware of the issue. But I hope that you also understand why ISI went for the vmods system. They created the system to avoid people randomly joining and disconnecting because it actually affects performance, server stability and bandwith incase that you have a constant download process going on.

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You can have a system that avoids people randomly joining and disconnecting without all the current limitations previously mentioned. If the player doesn't have the current track in use, then they just can't join - just like currently in RF2, however, they should then get some sort of pop-up for auto-downloading the current track, or a website or Steam Workshop direct link to the track, or an exact track name, authors, and version #, or whatever (I listed some cool features in my "Side-notes" section in my other post).

Having said that, think about all the data going in and out of a server for minutes and minutes, hours and hours on end, yet you're saying a player simply just joining and/or leaving a server places all sorts of harsh bandwidth and/or load demands on a server? I've never heard of this before. People join and leave games constantly in all videogames for nearly 20 years now. I've never heard of this being a specific problem with online multiplayer gaming, especially in the past 5-10 years. Having said that, even if you want to avoid that, then just don't allow the player to join at all as I described in the previous paragraph and as is currently the case in RF2 (but while only requiring the currently used track to join, not any other tracks).

tr1v1um said:

As much as you say that rF2 being a modding platform is irrelevant, it's actually the most cirtical point here. To have smooth pick up and play racing, that you are asking for, you need to make sure that the users can't manipulate their install. Thatswhy such a system works only well in closed ecosystems. It's the complete opposite of what you find in rF1, AMS1, and AC. As said, AC online racing only works well, if the server providers use no mods. Thatswhy it's allways GT3 or classic DTM cars at one of the default tracks or tourist layout with default content. I haven't run a single public online race on a modded AC track with multiple modded cars, because their system sucks even more. Now comes the point why rF2 especialy works a bit different: the whole online racing scene evolves around actually making use of 3rd party content and not ignoring it. Thatswhy the game tells you beforehand what you need.

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But you don't "need" what the game's telling you. If I want to join 67 Spa, that's all I should need. It shouldn't matter if I have or don't have 2, 20, or 200 other tracks.

Let's say the server has 5 tracks setup in his list. You can make that any number, 50 if you want. If the current track is 67 Spa and you have it, the game should simply let you join. The game could always then give you a pop-up with a list of all the tracks the server MAY switch to and from there you could be given different options to download the other ones (different ways of downloading & auto-downloading the tracks is a whole-nother topic but I listed some ideas in my "Side-note" section). Then, it's up to you if you want to acquire the tracks (hopefully via a well-implemented 1- or 2- click auto-download system). But, at least you can still join the current game.

That will solve most problems. People can join a session right away as long as they have the current track. People can clearly find out what other tracks the server may randomly switch to at any time with the option to download them if they like. Servers don't have to worry about people not being able to join, or not wanting to wait to download everything to join, if they pre-select too many tracks.

It basically solves all problems.

tr1v1um said:

In rF1 it's even more difficult, when the people joining you have no idea what they are missing and it becomes a matter of luck if you aren't running the most popular mods, what you propably did. I am pretty sure your buddies knew beforehand what they needed and for the other people it was luck.

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In RF1, if running mods, I would clearly write in the cool explanation part what mod I'm running with a website link of where to download it. This gives the player all the info. An in-game 1-click download (whether the 1-click auto-downloads from the server, from a website, or from Steam Workshop) would be even better but RF1 doesn't have that so I would clearly put the link in the awesome "server info" section (which RF2 doesn't have, even Reiza sadly didn't implement it in AMS1).

As long as there's an auto-download system (again, different ways to implement this) then that's all that should be needed.

tr1v1um said:

That rF1 and AMS1 required one step less might be all fun and dandy, but I don't see the fun in being kicked from the server nor not being able to connect to a server.

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? Exactly, that's the whole point of what I'm suggesting. Whether you want to call it "kicked from a server", or "not being able to connect to a server", the issue happens way too often with RF2 because of the track issue which forces servers to feel like they're forced to severely limit their tracks, or even just keep it at 1. With rF1 and AMS1, you just need the current track, it doesn't matter what other tracks may or may not be used in 5 mins, 50 mins, or 5 hours. With RF2, you can't join until you get ALL those tracks, not just the current one so I don't understand how you're saying the RF1 / AMS1 system is more limited or created less chances to play besides the fact they don't have an auto-download system but this isn't about auto-downloads, this is about being forced to download all tracks instead of the just the current one.

tr1v1um said:

rF games (this includes rF2, rF1 and AMS1) are just not made for fast paced server switching

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Says who? I used to have a brilliant time with friends and tons of random players of all ages, all skill levels, doing what many servers do now which is: a short practice session of usually 10-20 mins (I prefer 20 but just giving you a range of examples), then a short qualy of 10-20 mins, then a warm-up of 2-5 mins, then a race. The only difference back then was, after the race, I had the freedom to either restart that same weekend or re-do that process on a whole new track (it was up to me but I'd like to ask everyone to see their opinions, which track, etc.). Whereas now you can't do that, you're stuck on just endlessly repeating the same track over and over and over again unless you pre-select other tracks but that brings you back to "square-one" because now you have to worry about tons of people not joining because they need to install an entire list of tracks regardless if they ever play on those tracks at all.

Two more weeks of 'the way it should be' instead of, lets see what it actually is... two ...weeks...
two

Just a quick note: the GT3 update is now live, but there has been a few hiccups. The main one is for users who have downloaded skins for the GT3 cars. If those are mas file skins, then the old versions of the cars will remain and you run the possibility of both choosing and competing against either the old version or the new version of each GT3. For clarity, ALL of the current GT3 cars have been upgraded to v3.51. If you see a lower number, then that is an old version probably tied to a skin or mod.

Old and new rfmod with the same skins will still work as normal for both versions ( assuming you had the old versions installed through a rfmod ) otherwise you lost your old folders and skins haven't you ?

Best way like I said 100 times is to pack all skins into JSGME mods.
Then it is impossible to lose anything.
So, when new version of any cars come.....

1. De-activate old JSGME mod

2. Rename the existing car folders to latest version ie: v3.51.
Nice they made all 14 the same version number. ( actually it's 16 GT3 cars 2 Audi 2 Bentley ) Copy and paste "3.51" to the 14 16 folders should take 2 minutes

3. Activate updated JSGME mod ..all done !

Faster way to rename is with Beyond Compare, open the JSGME mod cars folder, highlight the 16 GT3 cars highest folder rename them to 3.51 in one hit, takes 10 seconds.

Example:

Same today GT3 updated to 3.53

With rfmods:
Keeps old content installed till you finish saved resumes using the old version cars. Be a bit odd swapping BOP midrace wouldn't it ?
Use the old rfmods till you feel like redoing rfmods and renaming folders
Make a new rfmod 3.53 and test against 3.51


So with rF2 I can make 2 rfmods with 3.51 and 3.53.
Put only 1 skin for each car model.
Make offline server with no AI.
Test each car swapping in garage instead of track reload.
Do the same thing with the other rfmod.
Take Motec / data from the 2 sessions.

To do that without rfmods or ability to swap cars in garage would take 30 sessions like in other sims.
Then again you would not have 2 versions of one car to test whenever you felt like it.

................and people think the game changer is content management ?

This game needs a new graphics engine desperately...

DonaldRacer said:

This game needs a new graphics engine desperately...

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No, it doesn't.
Everything is so damn personal preference. Run this game in HDR, everything else looks like a 70's cartoon in comparison. To me.