RaceRoom Revises Ranked Server Format

R.Man · Jan 15, 2022

BP said:
1) All humans you'll find on a server don't have the exact same "tell" or weakness in Turn 4; even if the drivers are of similar pace, it's not gonna happen because we all drive a bit differently and react differently...but mostly it's:
2) Human drivers can adapt and change their driving style (their "tells") to throw you off or bluff/dummy you...I have yet to see AI actually do this over the course of a multi lap battle. I haven't battled R3E's AI since 2019, but unless it's now suddenly the most advanced AI compared to all sims, I doubt it has this ability. It'll adapt to pace...but not strategy.

Like humans I have weaknesses too....Anyway lot of the humans on the servers will crash at turn 1 during the first lap and may wreck you in the process. It's way worst than AI having weakness in turn 4 but can race clean during all the session imho. And this is something that will never change and will be linked to sim racing until the end of time. In the other side the AI are better and better. Their improvement are stable and has less and less boundraies. And even if you're a human, if a particular turn is your weakness whatever you'll do other than crashing the other drivers , this particular turn will stay you weakness. If all humans had zero weaknesses on any tracks , that means that all of us would be aliens. Not the case at all. Also I would like to insist of the availaibility of the AI races. Servers are tied to precise schedules to have people on them, AI race is availaible whenever you need them. And you can use as much as AI opponent as you need. May be RRRE AI is not ready for ranked AI race but imho sim like ACC which has modern AI is ready. It's not perfect but it has proven its values. If we look further with all those AI progress , neural network, deep learning etc. If I reckon even Kunos is already working on something like that. I think full Ai ranking system will be a thing soon. Online will still exist but mainly for fun with friends and esport.

BP · Jan 15, 2022

R.Man said:
Like humans I have weaknesses too....Anyway lot of the humans on the servers will crash at turn 1 during the first lap and may wreck you in the process. It's way worst than AI having weakness in turn 4 but can race clean during all the session imho. And this is something that will never change and will be linked to sim racing until the end of time. In the other side the AI are better and better. Their improvement are stable and has less and less boundraies. And even if you're a human, if a particular turn is your weakness whatever you'll do other than crashing the other drivers , this particular turn will stay you weakness. If all humans had zero weaknesses on any tracks , that means that all of us would be aliens. Not the case at all.

I completely disagree; you can exploit an AI on turn 4 all race long and after awhile that gets boring to me...vs. dealing with people with different weaknesses and driving personalities. I never said at any point I want humans with no weaknesses...and if a corner is your weakness, I don't agree that your only options are to crash someone else out or to just give up to other faster drivers...there a big middle ground in between to defend cleanly. If I'm on the pace everywhere except Turn 4, that's where you defend...similarly you find your opponent's weakness and attack there...if you're similarly paced, it's all about who can sustain the better defense. Besides, how long you can maintain a certain pace is also part of a driver's strength/weakness...it's not just about how great you are at each turn or lap...even aliens can be beaten if they have a lapse in concentration/error in judgement and crash.

Saying that AI is the way because of a few lap 1 crashes is a cop-out...maybe that's the case in public lobbies or low ranked races, but that hasn't been my experience in iRacing (nearly 600 road races) and in several RD races in AC, ACC, R3E, AMS1 and RF2 (I estimate near 100) over the years...I'd say that happened maybe 5% of the time at best. Once that's out of the way the real strategy of racing can begin and that's where the experience with AI suffers compared with people. If a ranking system is done right, those who can't survive 2 laps will stay in lower rankings, and those with good awareness and avoidance skills will rise through the ranks...it's that simple.

Please note: I'm not saying AI can't get to a state where it'll vary strategy and dummy drivers into an error, make mistakes, etc...I'm saying in 2022 driving against AI still doesn't beat the human experience IMO. You actually learn more from bad races than the good ones where AI is clinically clean all race. The only benefits I see AI having over online human races are the lack of netcode issues and instant availability to race.

R.Man · Jan 15, 2022

BP said:
I completely disagree; you can exploit an AI on turn 4 all race long and after awhile that gets boring to me...vs. dealing with people with different weaknesses and driving personalities. I never said at any point I want humans with no weaknesses...and if a corner is your weakness, I don't agree that your only options are to crash someone else out or to just give up to other faster drivers...there a big middle ground in between to defend cleanly. If I'm on the pace everywhere except Turn 4, that's where you defend...similarly you find your opponent's weakness and attack there...if you're similarly paced, it's all about who can sustain the better defense. Besides, how long you can maintain a certain pace is also part of a driver's strength/weakness...it's not just about how great you are at each turn or lap...even aliens can be beaten if they have a lapse in concentration/error in judgement and crash.

Saying that AI is the way because of a few lap 1 crashes is a cop-out...maybe that's the case in public lobbies or low ranked races, but that hasn't been my experience in iRacing (nearly 600 road races) and in several RD races in AC, ACC, R3E, AMS1 and RF2 (I estimate near 100) over the years...I'd say that happened maybe 5% of the time at best. Once that's out of the way the real strategy of racing can begin and that's where the experience with AI suffers compared with people. If a ranking system is done right, those who can't survive 2 laps will stay in lower rankings, and those with good awareness and avoidance skills will rise through the ranks...it's that simple.

Please note: I'm not saying AI can't get to a state where it'll vary strategy and dummy drivers into an error, make mistakes, etc...I'm saying in 2022 driving against AI still doesn't beat the human experience IMO. You actually learn more from bad races than the good ones where AI is clinically clean all race. The only benefits I see AI having over online human races are the lack of netcode issues and instant availability to race.

As you seem to have a bunch of experience and time in sim racing, you speak less for beginners , casual simracers, time short simracers which is a big part of the community. Those people are participating (in majority?) keeping this industry afloat with their money. For starters It's not so easy to begin sim racing and player immediately able to race in multiplayer ranked server and enjoy it. You forgot the hundreds of hours you've spend to train yourself before being good or relatively good. Those hundreds of hours the other people may not have the opportunity to spend them on servers. And even if we are not beginners, we are mainly grown man with family responsabilities and jobs so 30mn sim time per week may be already hard to have. So what do you do if in this exact free time the servers are empty? That's way I exposed the availability argument 2 times in the previous posts which you seem not consider at all. So in sum i'm not against racing online but think that hybrid AI and Online training and ranking system like in ACC which has contributed onthe title big success is a good combo.

pal77 · Jan 16, 2022

R.Man said:
As you seem to have a bunch of experience and time in sim racing, you speak less for beginners , casual simracers, time short simracers which is a big part of the community. Those people are participating (in majority?) keeping this industry afloat with their money. For starters It's not so easy to begin sim racing and player immediately able to race in multiplayer ranked server and enjoy it. You forgot the hundreds of hours you've spend to train yourself before being good or relatively good. Those hundreds of hours the other people may not have the opportunity to spend them on servers. And even if we are not beginners, we are mainly grown man with family responsabilities and jobs so 30mn sim time per week may be already hard to have. So what do you do if in this exact free time the servers are empty? That's way I exposed the availability argument 2 times in the previous posts which you seem not consider at all. So in sum i'm not against racing online but think that hybrid AI and Online training and ranking system like in ACC which has contributed onthe title big success is a good combo.

You have some real good points about A.I. racing, when I first started 2 years ago I would be scared to join an online lobby for fear of pace and crashing someone. So I used A.I. to find pace and learn tracks, also you are correct in some people having time issues to just load up a quick race. But nothing beats online racing for me now, it doesn't matter your pace becouse in the lobby you will find someone equal upfront, midfield or at the back. You will learn so much more in different lines breaking points and racecraft. I would say over an average of say 10 races I would be hit twice becouse in most lobbies I have been in (LFM) people race to avoid contact then to race just for position. I use ACC for competitive racing and use AC for fun and leisure but even then I'm on the Nords tourist online.

BP · Jan 16, 2022

R.Man said:
As you seem to have a bunch of experience and time in sim racing, you speak less for beginners , casual simracers, time short simracers which is a big part of the community. Those people are participating (in majority?) keeping this industry afloat with their money. For starters It's not so easy to begin sim racing and player immediately able to race in multiplayer ranked server and enjoy it. You forgot the hundreds of hours you've spend to train yourself before being good or relatively good. Those hundreds of hours the other people may not have the opportunity to spend them on servers. And even if we are not beginners, we are mainly grown man with family responsabilities and jobs so 30mn sim time per week may be already hard to have. So what do you do if in this exact free time the servers are empty? That's way I exposed the availability argument 2 times in the previous posts which you seem not consider at all. So in sum i'm not against racing online but think that hybrid AI and Online training and ranking system like in ACC which has contributed onthe title big success is a good combo.

And I think you’re missing my point (I’m not against AI at all, I just don’t think that’s the future of ratings…I’d rather learning AI be applied to real time Marshalling), so let’s go back to the beginning of how this discussion started. You said:

R.Man said:
They may get more interest from the players if they develop an offline ranking system like in ACC allowing the players to train with AI and increase rating anytime they can. Not forced to go online to do it. AI in RRRE is good so it should be ok. Once they are ready the can join the ranked servers. Hybrid Online-Offline ranking system is the future imho.

You brought up the idea of a ranking system that merges online and offline ratings into one…to which I am saying, whether you’re beginner or not, it doesn’t really overlap. I’m not saying AI is pointless at all, it’s very much ideal for training drivers, but to a point. I haven’t forgotten what it’s like to start out, and I’m far from being an alien.

What I’m saying is racing online is another animal, both in pace and skillset required to survive. That’s just my opinion based on my experience not only in racing but in various other competitive gaming. Analogy: if this was old-school Street Fighter II, where the AI goes from 1 to 8, online (or playing against people in person) is like a level 1 - 12 AI, but some of them learn, adapts to how you fight it, and will spam you if the mood strikes it…a different can of worms.

Also since you keep saying it: I’m also a grown man with family and commitments…and I’ve spent quite a lot on sim racing software (including DLC and subscriptions), even more on hardware, so I’d think my opinion also matters as someone that’s been both beginner and somewhat experienced and, as you put it: “keeping the industry afloat with their money”. AI definitely has its uses as you’ve clearly pointed out, but as for me personally, I don’t think it should count towards online rating…we can agree to disagree.

RaceRoom Revises Ranked Server Format

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