2021 Formula One Russian Grand Prix

Is this topic about the GP of Russia or a some historics thread half of it based on assumptions?
Great drive from Lando, can imagine he did not wat to go in with a 23 second gap behind him and only a few laps to go.
Extremely great drive from Max, with a bit of luck falling his way this time.
Decent drive from Lewis, as almost always.
Had a super enjoyable afternoon, all the ingredients needed where there.
So looking forward to the next race.

asdfl;jsk said:

I don't get why people go into minutiae on this Hamilton stuff.

Big picture, there's a couple of true statements you can make
-Hamilton is a great driver
-Hamilton has been beaten twice in his career by teammates (Button, Rosberg)
-Button and Rosberg were perceived to be good to great drivers (on their day), but were never really considered to be the best on the grid (and are definitely not GOAT material by any stretch)
-Hamilton has been part of the most dominant F1 team ever and driving the out-and-out fastest car since 2014
-Hamilton has - up until now - never had a consistent rival in a car that could challenge Mercedes (like Mclaren/Ferrari in the late 90s)

The above leads some people to conclude that Hamilton is not, in fact, the GOAT, but a great driver who was #blessed with landing the right car at the right the time. Or maybe he's the GOAT after all? Reality is that unless you go back in time and put all of them in spec cars, we'll never really know anyway.

Click to expand...

Just to add to that, because apparently people forget (or likely were still learning to crawl and to speak at the time...) that Hamilton had really terrible drives in the seasons when his McLarens were not the dominant car.

I doubt Max would label "extremely great drive" a race where, due to insufficient tyre management, he was passed by an Alpine and stuck 7th before the rain randomized things.

GTSpeedster said:

Just to add to that, because apparently people forget (or likely were still learning to crawl and to speak at the time...) that Hamilton had really terrible drives in the seasons when his McLarens were not the dominant car.

Click to expand...

Name a world champion who never had really terrible drives.

Hamilton fan base this year is a challenge.... he wants a challenge and he have it

Can we just ban all conversations about Hamilton and whether he is or isn’t a good driver?

Every single race, every single thread just descends into this boring old argument. There are delusional people who think he's nothing special, there are delusional people who think that he is absolutely the greatest driver who ever lived, and realists who realise he's a very good driver who has in the past made the difference where the car was not as fast but has also had times where the car has taken him to easy victories when he hasn't been doing so well personally, same as every great racing driver in the past, insert the name of your hero here. Nobody is going to convince the other two groups anything different, it's just this endless cycle.

In the quali for this race there were no Mercs, no Red Bulls, and none of the HAMVERBOT trio involved anywhere in the top 3, there were fantastic drives from various young drivers (Carlos, Lando etc) but all we're constantly chatting about is Hamilton.

Personally I'm really excited for next year with Russell, Lando, Carlos, Charles, and even Alonso all looking very good towards the end of this season, next year with the rule change we could see a completely different order of teams. Will Alpine bring a car that decimates all? Will Guenther Steiner lift the Constructors' Trophy at the end of 2022? Who knows.

This race was very good, McLaren were incredibly strong and it shows that they weren't just lucky at Monza. Lightning evidently can strike twice. Ricciardo seems to be getting a grip on the braking method required to get the McLaren to turn in and that's yielding better and better finishes for him, coupled with his famous racecraft I'm sure he'll be a great driver alongside Lando if they can keep up their competitiveness (and of course next year that quirk of the MCL could be gone)

Alonso in the Alpine is really good to watch, he's still very sharp even after all this time and I think if the Alpine becomes more competitive you could well see him again. Seb is doing an okay job in the Aston too.

Charles has struggled a bit but Carlos has been doing well, both of them seem to be elevating the Ferrari to places it probably should not deserve to be, again, if they get a competitive car next year they could be absolutely rapid.

Stroll I think everybody initially wrote off but he's turned out to be okay. Nothing incredible but there for more reasons than just daddy's money.

So gutted for Lando, he gambled and lost.
Great race though, I literally couldn't sit down for the last few laps.

Turk said:

So gutted for Lando, he gambled and lost.
Great race though, I literally couldn't sit down for the last few laps.

Click to expand...

I think that’s the most exciting Sochi I’ve ever seen. And most of that action was in the last 10 minutes!

LeSunTzu said:

Name a world champion who never had really terrible drives.

Click to expand...

Like Hamilton consistently had in those years I can't think of a single one...

Contrast Hamilton "bad Macca years" to Prost's Ferrari years, Schumacher's '96 to '99 (and 2005 for that matter) or Alonso's 2008 to forever...

In fact I challenge you or anybody to name any world champion that had as many mistakes and "odd" incidents as Hamilton had from 2009 onwards up to perhaps getting the Merc drive (2008 was already pretty bad too in the mistake department, lucky the car was boss and opposition meh at best). And those 09-14 Maccas were not even as bad as they would later become in the Honda years, so I can only imagine how much worse he'd have fared at the back of the field...

Hamilton is now known as someone who rarely does mistakes because the car allows him to. When your car is 1 second faster than the rest of the field, you don't need to give 100%, just do 90% and you will still win every time while not making any mistakes or taking any risks.

Now that the red bull is just as good and other midfield cars are much closer, suddenly 2021 is plagued with Hamilton mistakes.

You didn't answer my question, really.

Schumacher? black flag at British GP 1994, tentative ramming into Villeneuve. No need to elaborate.

Alonso? I will skip the "win" arranged with Piquet Jr's crash and remind his 2007 season with his famous blockade in the pits at Budapest and the Suzuka crash.

Prost? I will skip the controversial Monaco GP thanks to the timely red flag that he requested from his car. Let's pick the Dutch GP 1983 where he crashed into Piquet - iirc the first time he crashed with a championship rival but not the last.

If those are not miserable races, then nothing is.

In 10 years' time people will look back at Verstappen's career and they will see as many mistakes as Hamilton in their early years. That's called inexperience and youth. Drivers like Prost didn't have as much as they started F1 at 25, not 18 or 17.

As for your challenge about odd incidents and mistakes: Mansell.

LeSunTzu said:

You didn't answer my question, really.

Schumacher? black flag at British GP 1994, tentative ramming into Villeneuve. No need to elaborate.

Alonso? I will skip the "win" arranged with Piquet Jr's crash and remind his 2007 season with his famous blockade in the pits at Budapest and the Suzuka crash.

Prost? I will skip the controversial Monaco GP thanks to the timely red flag that he requested from his car. Let's pick the Dutch GP 1983 where he crashed into Piquet - iirc the first time he crashed with a championship rival but not the last.

If those are not miserable races, then nothing is.

In 10 years' time people will look back at Verstappen's career and they will see as many mistakes as Hamilton in their early years. That's called inexperience and youth. Drivers like Prost didn't have as much as they started F1 at 25, not 18 or 17.

As for your challenge about odd incidents and mistakes: Mansell.

Click to expand...

Well thats a trip down memory lane. But mind you, what mistakes did Piquet did? And miserable races before his Imiola 87 accident? Less good yes, but miserable? I Struggle to recall.

Also the Alonso Hungary thing has been done to death, and even i mentioned it in this thread, reminding yet again that he was retaliating for Hamilton not respecting team instructions and getting in Alonso's way previously. As for the crashgate, Alonso was proven innocent of any wrongdoing. Unlike Hamilton who was caught lying to the stewards, and leaking telemetry in social media to try to justify being slower than Button.

Mistakes all drivers do, even the big ones, who can forget the Senna blunder in Monaco 88. It's the amount of them that makes the difference.

Mansell, now thats a good one, to me Hamilton is actually very similar to Mansell. Very very quick, exciting to watch most of the time, but very error prone and not very cerebral. If we imagine Mansell having that FW14b 7 years in a row, maybe we would look at him in a totally different light today... but of course, ifs don't count. But thats why context is important.

PickABetterUsername01 said:

Hamilton is now known as someone who rarely does mistakes because the car allows him to. When your car is 1 second faster than the rest of the field, you don't need to give 100%, just do 90% and you will still win every time while not making any mistakes or taking any risks.

Now that the red bull is just as good and other midfield cars are much closer, suddenly 2021 is plagued with Hamilton mistakes.

Click to expand...

Strange the Ham fanboys can’t/will not admit that all those years the Mercs came from an other planet, still Ham is an amazing driver, but with the best car, which is this year gone.
In previous years Ham could make mistakes, because no other team nearby, this year things are different, and now he makes more and more mistakes, he is not used to it. That’s it!!!

there is only one who never makes a mistake and that is sir Max Verstappen

BP said:

I expected nothing less given his immense skill...but what most people refer to is his temper gets the better of him when he's in a sticky situation. That wasn't the case today, as the entire turbo hybrid era has shown if you have a car capable of challenging Mercedes and you're not a crappy driver, going from the back to the podium is not only possible but expected. Bottas did it before, so of course Max could. However when his back is against the wall, that's when his volatile temper comes out and gets overly aggressive in his moves, where a cooler temperament to pace himself and strike at less riskier opportunities would serve him better. His "that's what you get" comment after the Monza incident didn't help matters.

Max is an amazing driver, but he still has a bit to work on in this regard...but his saving grace is the RB is just strong enough this year to keep him ahead and clear of dogfights with Lewis for most of the races. Hamilton isn't perfect either, as he does make silly mistakes occasionally...many of the greats have their faults, so there's no need for defensive postures when a fault is pointed out. In my opinion, based on all I've seen, the closest driver to perfection overall in my opinion was Niki Lauda: dude was calm, laser-focused, could take emotion out of it, was fast in both single lap and race pace and had a very strategic mind.

I'm not gonna go into the "taken out two times by Hamilton" bit: watch the video below for a clearly explained take on the matter by a very experienced multi championship-winning driver.

Click to expand...

Yup, Max's performances this years shows that a top car is crucial for a driver to compete at the top....it's how it always has been and it's how it always will be (99.99% of the time ).

Max's temperament is defo his achilles heel, but he's still SO young!! Most people under the age of 25 are barely in full control of their emotions!!

Terry Rock said:

You guys love to come here spewing nonsense.
Both Button and Rosberg came out ahead in years Lewis had failures.
Both are great drivers by the way.
As to Alonso...He was a multiple WDC at the time a very young Lewis Hamilton ever 'touched' a Formula One car and yet... he matched him in his first year...in the same car.
Spew that nonsense somewhere else.

Click to expand...

Strange how Lewis fans never say he only won in 2008 because of Ferrari "failures".

BP said:

It seems very important to you that Hamilton "fails" in some way (like he hasn't had failures and setbacks already in his career)...that the shine is knocked off of him for whatever reason, because he's not "worthy".

Since you're always so keen on facts, just remember this: no matter what comebacks you have, or accuse people are rewriting history (even though some of the history you omit to serve your own narrative), He is the current holder of these records, and that is indisputable fact. He is the guy in the dominant car that beat the records of the other guys in the other dominant cars. He may not be the GOAT (Whatever the hell that is, when rules and car design changes so much over 70 years)...but nothing you say will change the records below

View attachment 505676

Schumi, Senna, Prost, Hakinnen, Button, Alonso, Hamilton, Verstappen, Lauda, Clark, Fangio, Moss, Stewart, etc etc etc are/were all great drivers (hope I didn't miss your favourite). Can we stop with the "My driver is better than your driver" stuff and enjoy this great season?

Click to expand...

Problem is most of those "stats" are primarily because of 2 factors, the length of Lewis' career, when previous greats like Clark never had the safety or reliability of modern F1 cars. Also during his career Lewis has had at least the 3rd best car, and most of his carer THE best car. Plus there are FAR more races now than in the past, Clark only had 10 races a year. So "total" stats mean absolutely nothing at all. Your last comment is laudible, shame most Lewis fans don't adhere to that sentiment.

asdfl;jsk said:

I don't get why people go into minutiae on this Hamilton stuff.

Big picture, there's a couple of true statements you can make
-Hamilton is a great driver
-Hamilton has been beaten twice in his career by teammates (Button, Rosberg)
-Button and Rosberg were perceived to be good to great drivers (on their day), but were never really considered to be the best on the grid (and are definitely not GOAT material by any stretch)
-Hamilton has been part of the most dominant F1 team ever and driving the out-and-out fastest car since 2014
-Hamilton has - up until now - never had a consistent rival in a car that could challenge Mercedes (like Mclaren/Ferrari in the late 90s)

The above leads some people to conclude that Hamilton is not, in fact, the GOAT, but a great driver who was #blessed with landing the right car at the right the time. Or maybe he's the GOAT after all? Reality is that unless you go back in time and put all of them in spec cars, we'll never really know anyway.

Click to expand...

Spot on!

GTSpeedster said:

Just to add to that, because apparently people forget (or likely were still learning to crawl and to speak at the time...) that Hamilton had really terrible drives in the seasons when his McLarens were not the dominant car.

Click to expand...

Maybe not dominant, but still VERY good cars, 3rd best behind RB and Ferrari (4th in 2009 with the Brawn) most of that period, what cracks me up is that most Hamilton fans call the Mclaren in that period a bad car! LOL

Also another myth associated with Lewis is he built Merc into the winners they are (when it was the Hybrid rule change), doing single handedly in one year what Schumacher (along with Bryne, Brawn and Todt) took 4 or so years to do at Ferrari. LOL. If Lewis was THAT good a development driver why wasn't the McLaren improving under his genius?

There is NO doubt Lewis is an amazing driver arguably the best of his generation, but the Myths around how good he is rival the Greeks and Romans!!