Automobilista 2 | 'Biggest Update Yet' Coming Soon

Lefthook said:

Weird how there was a post just today from a staff member citing the odd tire behaviour I mentioned and how they believe they have it nailed down for the upcoming 1.4 release.
Guess I'm just making this stuff up though, right?

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The difference is that the staff member made a reference to very specific situation related to certain cars many of which have not yet received the updated carcass.
You are making a bit of a blanket statement that seems universally valid while it's clearly not.
So when you make such a blanket statement Wolftree is right in reminding you that the same can be said of RF2 where the upgrades among the content are even more scattered than AMS2 new carcass is right now.

kaijuh said:

so TLDR:

Automobilista 2 is a more realistic simulator than both iracing and ACC?

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It certainly has far greater amount of advanced models within it than iracing and ACC.
Tuning (with its complexities) is what makes some of them in certain cases/situation underperforming or performing wrongly.

MadDriver11 said:

The difference is that the staff member made a reference to very specific situation related to certain cars many of which have not yet received the updated carcass.
You are making a bit of a blanket statement that seems universally valid while it's clearly not.
So when you make such a blanket statement Wolftree is right in reminding you that the same can be said of RF2 where the upgrades among the content are even more scattered than AMS2 new carcass is right now.

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The point being the developer themselves weren't happy with the current tire model stating there were unwanted behaviours and it is undergoing significant updates for 1.4, so it isn't out of line for a user to also have the opinion the tires behave oddly in some or many of the cars. Hopefully 1.4 fixes outstanding tire issues and I am very hopeful, but Wolftree responded as if my post had no basis when in fact it certainly does.

Richard Wilks said:

This sounds like a total Deja vu to me. Probably because this exact same conversation happened in discord nearly two years ago.

And i will say the same i said then.

AMS2 popularity or not has nothing to do with publicity. People already gave examples in this thread of niche games that are very popular.

Nor will MP fixes improve the situation much. Altough those would at least help the leagues and stabilize the userbase around them.

AMS2 main problem is that it has no focus.

ACC is the GT3 game.

iRacing is the WOW of simracing game.

beamNG is the crash game.

AC1 is the drifter/roamer/youtuber car review game.

What is AMS2? Its ironic that you compare it with rf2, because rf2 has the exact same problem. As well as R3E. And not surprisingly these 3 games are at the bottom of the list, and suffer in the exact same way.

The "whole encompassing" game works for the giants like GT, Forza, or at a smaller scale PCars. But why would you play AMS2 over these? Physics? GT and Forza do all the rest better.

Because you want to drive some late 90s CART car? Well maybe, but the game is not focused around that. Sure the cars are there, but not the full roster,not the full calendar. The same for all the other cars. Only maybe the Brazilian stock cars have the complete set, but can that carry the game outside brazil?...

Publicity gets you nowhere, if you dont have nothing special to sell. AMS1 was promoted to death by none other than Jimmy Broadbent, and even had mods going for it, unlike AMS2, yet nobody played it.

AMS2 doesnt even have proper mods, and part of the game is unlicensed fantasy F1s, which makes it look like a cheap copycat. Why would you play that over the likes of full field F1 mods in rf2 or AC1? Sure the madness engine is incredibly competent, and that is a massive plus, but it's being let down by a team that is hellbent on making just another PCars2 but with different physics and fantasy cars thrown there.

I am not ignoring the massive work they have done to flesh out the game, techically reiza is working very well, and i am not ashamed to say that they have surprised me in a good way this year specially, but in the end, the user can't see that before investing in it, and it wont invest if it doesnt see anything that the game does different from others.

Until then, AMS2 will remain what it is now, a game that people have in their library, and fire up just once in a while for a quick lap or race.

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Interesting comment. I think a name or an image that a game or franchize has plays a big part in how games get traction and popularity. I allways considered the franchize name "Automobilista" as a bit wierd and it's propably one reason why people never heard of it outside of our little bubble. The same goes for rFactor. The reason why those games aren't as popular as AC or iRacing are different though. AC has a very simplistic design, wich makes it very easy to get going, but I would argue that it doesn't have any more focus than rF2 or AMS1/2. It's simply what the community made out of it.

rF2 had a very rough start and a big part of what made it less successfull than AC for example, is that it has a pretty poor image/reputation, in some cases justified in other cases not so much. I still see people calling the UI horrendous while the newest iteration is actually very good. The MP is rock solid, the AI is decent, especialy if you compare it to the most popular games and the graphics are in some cases actually better than iRacing, moded AC or even Madness engine games. But I still think that Kunos has better understood what it means to grow a franchize. It needs to be seen, if those other studios can improve, but I still think that our Hobby is very niche. Even the most popular games like AC still don't have more than 10k players at a time.

Anyway, the reason, why AMS2 doesn't click for me is very different though. I simply don't enjoy the driving aspects of it. I just took the Caterham Academy for a spin to compare it to the rF2 version and it simply doesn't drive like a car, atleast from my POV. Maybe it isn't updated with the newest TM but imagine people getting in that car first, who aren't that familiar with the development concepts in simracing.

tr1v1um said:

Interesting comment. I think a name or an image that a game or franchize has plays a big part in how games get traction and popularity. I allways considered the franchize name "Automobilista" as a bit wierd and it's propably one reason why people never heard of it outside of our little bubble. The same goes for rFactor. The reason why those games aren't as popular as AC or iRacing are different though. AC has a very simplistic design, wich makes it very easy to get going, but I would argue that it doesn't have any more focus than rF2 or AMS1/2. It's simply what the community made out of it.

rF2 had a very rough start and a big part of what made it less successfull than AC for example, is that it has a pretty poor image/reputation, in some cases justified in other cases not so much. I still see people calling the UI horrendous while the newest iteration is actually very good. The MP is rock solid, the AI is decent, especialy if you compare it to the most popular games and the graphics are in some cases actually better than iRacing, moded AC or even Madness engine games. But I still think that Kunos has better understood what it means to grow a franchize. It needs to be seen, if those other studios can improve, but I still think that our Hobby is very niche. Even the most popular games like AC still don't have more than 10k players at a time.

Anyway, the reason, why AMS2 doesn't click for me is very different though. I simply don't enjoy the driving aspects of it. I just took the Caterham Academy for a spin to compare it to the rF2 version and it simply doesn't drive like a car, atleast from my POV. Maybe it isn't updated with the newest TM but imagine people getting in that car first, who aren't that familiar with the development concepts in simracing.

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RF2 is less popular than AC, because unlike AC, it's studio decided to overcomplicate what it's predecessor had going for it, namely, the ease of modding. By making modding for it a pain and an almost hit and miss trial and error affair (and people like me and Niels H. should know), it basically alienated it's user base overnight, many of who jumped ship to the yes, vastly feature inferior, but also vastly easier to mod AC. So while Kunos basically copied the most important feature for rf1's success, ISI decided to listen to the wrong people on the internet, and create something that only the most fanatic of simracing elitists were asking for. Yes, make no mistake, the downfall of rf2 was actively asked for in places like NoGrip back in the day, i can still read "mod quality control", and "tire model that prevents people from inputing random numbers" in my head.

Even the drifting/free roaming/car reviewer thing started in rf1, so what does that tell you?...

tr1v1um said:

Interesting comment. I think a name or an image that a game or franchize has plays a big part in how games get traction and popularity. I allways considered the franchize name "Automobilista" as a bit wierd and it's propably one reason why people never heard of it outside of our little bubble. The same goes for rFactor. The reason why those games aren't as popular as AC or iRacing are different though. AC has a very simplistic design, wich makes it very easy to get going, but I would argue that it doesn't have any more focus than rF2 or AMS1/2. It's simply what the community made out of it.

rF2 had a very rough start and a big part of what made it less successfull than AC for example, is that it has a pretty poor image/reputation, in some cases justified in other cases not so much. I still see people calling the UI horrendous while the newest iteration is actually very good. The MP is rock solid, the AI is decent, especialy if you compare it to the most popular games and the graphics are in some cases actually better than iRacing, moded AC or even Madness engine games. But I still think that Kunos has better understood what it means to grow a franchize. It needs to be seen, if those other studios can improve, but I still think that our Hobby is very niche. Even the most popular games like AC still don't have more than 10k players at a time.

Anyway, the reason, why AMS2 doesn't click for me is very different though. I simply don't enjoy the driving aspects of it. I just took the Caterham Academy for a spin to compare it to the rF2 version and it simply doesn't drive like a car, atleast from my POV. Maybe it isn't updated with the newest TM but imagine people getting in that car first, who aren't that familiar with the development concepts in simracing.

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I think if it was someone who wasn't in the sim racing bubble they would probably be blown away by how amazing it feels especially if they were new to this. I remember when I was just getting into it and tried a force feedback wheel with Gran Turismo and thought it couldn't get any more realistic haha.

As you said you compared it to the same car in rF2 (after setting up your kit for both games) and felt it didn't drive like a car. That suprises me but this is all pretty subjective and I have to say for me AMS cars generally feel pretty close to rF2 now and I don't think your could say that AMS2 doesn't feel better than rF2 in some cars and conditions at least if perhaps not for the majority. Open wheel cars especially.

Lefthook said:

You don't have to see meh responses. The fact that AMS2 is basically dead last in player base of currently supported racing titles tells you that.
It can be turned around, but there are some key things that need improvement with multiplayer being one of them. I know a few people are not pleased that 2 and a half years into full release and MP hasn't had much improvement.
It's great that you enjoy all the content and hopefully the game continues to improve and more people get onboard, but the numbers indicate that the majority of people don't like the game in its current state for whatever reason. 1.4 will no doubt move the game forward but I don't think it will be a revelation that will have the sim community buzzing either.

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You have to come up with meh responses, since you claim that the majority reacted like that. That's quite an statement and not based with any statistics/facts, it's nothing more then your feeling and that's worth nothing.

For the rest I don't have to reply anymore since guys like MadDriver11 already did that for me. But I like to add that nobody from people that I talk to in real life EVER heared of Automobilista, but all those people knew about AC/RF2/F1 ! (4 different individuals) that tells me enough. That some youtubers talk positive about AMS2 says not everything the biggest sim racing youtuber jimmy something is only negative about AMS2(and haven't tried the game for 1 year+ I think) and not everyone constantly watches/cares about youtube.

You make statements that are based on nothing, just on your gut feelings and that is not enough in this world. You need to come up with straight facts to make claims like you did.

What I read online is the opposite, the majority is agreeing that Automobilista 2 is now maturing in terms of handling/physics and that the major drawback is multiplayer, but not the cars itself anymore. And a fact is that by far most reviews on Steam are positive, this wasn't the case in the past so it already proves you wrong.

AMS 2 might be the wisest purchase I ever made, and that includes my college education (then again, I majored in English at a small liberal arts college, so even the six-pack of Charmin I bought this afternoon was a wiser purchase.) So much under one umbrella and it seems the people at Rezia are mainlining black coffee to keep it coming.

Has any other sim started so humbly and turned into a tidal wave? I know ACC started with a whimper, but given some of the early criticism that was leveled at AMS 2, it's like the scene from "Carrie" where she exerts revenge on all her tormentors in the end,

I get the physics aren't perfect. But I think going into this title with a mindset of ACC or rF2 or iRacing misses the point. That ain't what it's here for.

It's the most "fun" sim out there, and I will fight you on that. Providing you're not too big.

TurboT said:

You make statements that are based on nothing, just on your gut feelings and that is not enough in this world. You need to come up with straight facts to make claims like you did.

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Not that I necessarily disagree with the spirit of your remark, but you just described an undeniably effective political strategy, no?


Back on topic, earlier this summer I uninstalled AC, reinstalled its vanilla version with very basic FFB settings for my Logitech G25 (analagous to the my Default+ FFB settings for AMS2) and compared similar cars across sims [Mercedes Benz AMG GT3, Porsche GT1, etc. (i.e., only AMS2 cars with updated tires and original Kunos content)].

You know what? Similar cars across the two sims generated surprisingly similar driving experiences. I also reinstalled AMS1 and drove identical cars across AMS1/AMS2. Same result; that is, hardly any justification to whinge about AMS2 while lauding other titles in terms of driving and offline racing (obviously, discerning judgment of AMS2 multiplayer will have to wait until Reiza has had the opportunity to address that area, which--once again, obviously--any sim developer would have to deprioritize while they revise physics modeling and settings across all content due to initial coding errors).

That's not to say any of these sims are perfect: each has its own idiosyncrasies, and each requires a different set of compromises and adjustments to suspend disbelief effectively across a race distance. For my part, I prefer that Reiza spend more time and resources on development rather than advertising. Let the simulation sell itself on its own merits.

Lefthook said:

The point being the developer themselves weren't happy with the current tire model stating there were unwanted behaviours and it is undergoing significant updates for 1.4, so it isn't out of line for a user to also have the opinion the tires behave oddly in some or many of the cars. Hopefully 1.4 fixes outstanding tire issues and I am very hopeful, but Wolftree responded as if my post had no basis when in fact it certainly does.

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There are for sure issues with some cars in AMS2, just like there are issues with some cars in every sim with more than one car. The main physics update in the last six months is the new tyre model that is now on most cars and will be added to the remaining cars in 1.4, which certainly improves the feel of many cars (including GT4s), but still has issues with other cars even after the update (including the Formula 3 and the Caterham Academy, as already mentioned).

As for the GT4s, my understanding is they will receive some turbo-modelling fixes that removes the OP turbo performance at altitude and improves the in-class BoP as a side-effect. None of that will remove "understeer in high-speed corners" because understeer at high speeds is caused by load transfer due to aerodynamic forces, not by changes in tyre cornering stiffness.

MadDriver11 said:

Do these people realize that all other options including iracing are on the market since almost a decade and yet have far less advanced features implemented than AMS2?

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Would you mind pointing out all these on-track advanced features, aside from rain.
Google or my searching skills really only touched on Live track features.
I've followed both titles/engines for over 10 yrs and am curious about the main differences

TurboT said:

You have to come up with meh responses, since you claim that the majority reacted like that. That's quite an statement and not based with any statistics/facts, it's nothing more then your feeling and that's worth nothing.

For the rest I don't have to reply anymore since guys like MadDriver11 already did that for me. But I like to add that nobody from people that I talk to in real life EVER heared of Automobilista, but all those people knew about AC/RF2/F1 ! (4 different individuals) that tells me enough. That some youtubers talk positive about AMS2 says not everything the biggest sim racing youtuber jimmy something is only negative about AMS2(and haven't tried the game for 1 year+ I think) and not everyone constantly watches/cares about youtube.

You make statements that are based on nothing, just on your gut feelings and that is not enough in this world. You need to come up with straight facts to make claims like you did.

What I read online is the opposite, the majority is agreeing that Automobilista 2 is now maturing in terms of handling/physics and that the major drawback is multiplayer, but not the cars itself anymore. And a fact is that by far most reviews on Steam are positive, this wasn't the case in the past so it already proves you wrong.

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Look at the peak numbers of AMS2. Compare that to how many players on average there are now. It's less than half. Not hard math to figure out. Why are current numbers well shy of half of the peak? Is it because the users love the game too much to play it? I can buy that the average person has heard of F1 and maybe ACC or AC, but no one outside of simracing has heard of RF2. That is a load of bull. Now who is pulling stuff out of thin air.
You're fine using positive reviews to justify your stance but my numbers are made up and just my gut feeling according to you. My point regarding the handling was that some people here are saying the it's great as is when the developers themselves are saying the upcoming update is heavily focused on physics and have admitted to odd/ poor tire behavior, but when someone says it here it is hate and nonsense. Ok, whatever. No point continuing this conversation because it isn't going in a positive direction. If you reply it will be a waste of time because I'm not going to read it. But if it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

Lefthook said:

The point being the developer themselves weren't happy with the current tire model stating there were unwanted behaviours and it is undergoing significant updates for 1.4, so it isn't out of line for a user to also have the opinion the tires behave oddly in some or many of the cars. Hopefully 1.4 fixes outstanding tire issues and I am very hopeful, but Wolftree responded as if my post had no basis when in fact it certainly does.

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I will explain it again: the remark you are using to say that the entire simulator is off was related to certain tires (not yet reached by the stiffer carcass) and certain matters related to the tires only.
For instance what is being worked on right now in Beta is chiefly the thermal exchange model especially with track but not only.
RF2 today has no such a working model and tires are running on the same temps no matter what the track temps are. The only element of grip variation due to track temp has been added last week and oddly enough (from the real world engineering standpoint) it is in the form of pure grip variation from track temps with nothing on the tires side.
Of ACC and tire temps we know how irrelevant they are.
For iracing these last period it is better not to mention tires and temps in the same sentence (enough said).
If I used the logic you are trying to convey, all of these simulators are totally off with respect to real life tire dynamics so you should conclude in a similar way they are not true simulators and their car behavior is deifnitely bad/off and it belongs in the trash bin because they have substandard (or even no) tire thermal model.

Lefthook said:

Look at the peak numbers of AMS2. Compare that to how many players on average there are now. It's less than half. Not hard math to figure out. Why are current numbers well shy of half of the peak? Is it because the users love the game too much to play it? I can buy that the average person has heard of F1 and maybe ACC or AC, but no one outside of simracing has heard of RF2. That is a load of bull. Now who is pulling stuff out of thin air.
You're fine using positive reviews to justify your stance but my numbers are made up and just my gut feeling according to you. My point regarding the handling was that some people here are saying the it's great as is when the developers themselves are saying the upcoming update is heavily focused on physics and have admitted to odd/ poor tire behavior, but when someone says it here it is hate and nonsense. Ok, whatever. No point continuing this conversation because it isn't going in a positive direction. If you reply it will be a waste of time because I'm not going to read it. But if it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

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So you're calling me a liar now? I am from the Netherlands and S397 is a Dutch developer(yes now owned by motorsport games), they did an insane amount of marketing over the years, they have an official Zandvoort license and Max Verstappen plays RF2. It's very popular here also under non sim racers, Heusinkveld is located in my town.

"No point continuing this conversation because it isn't going in a positive direction. If you reply it will be a waste of time because I'm not going to read it."

Because you clearly lost the argument, you back out. This proves how silly you are. You created this negativity here, not me. You can also accept that you was wrong from the start, because that's the fact here.

Kurupt CDN said:

Would you mind pointing out all these on-track advanced features, aside from rain.
Google or my searching skills really only touched on Live track features.
I've followed both titles/engines for over 10 yrs and am curious about the main differences

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Sure: first of all there is live track as you rightly mention which is far more than just "there is rain" in the game (by the way a good chunk of the most popular sim don't officially support D/N & weather still today so it's not so trivial).
Water amounts are dynamic and calculated locally based on how the cars are displacing water. The track accumulates water in a different way depending on the elevations and similarly damp areas remain with puddles or small streams across the track (for instance typical example is Juncao at Interlagos which has small streams across even when all the rest of track has become dry. Same is valid for rubbering. So there is more than "a coat of rubber/water inducing variable grip along the entire track"
Secondly differently from most of the sims we mentioned here there is a detailed model with geometries and masses for suspensions elements.
Same can be said about the driveline (engine, gearbox, differential): it contains masses and inertias for the elements that are making it (half shafts, bearings, crankshafts and all, remember the saga of the misbehaving differential and the adjustments to the mechanical elements masses/inertias?). The same differential is more than a torque splitter based on parametrized curves, the actual mechanics with friction values and masses is there as far as I could gather during the sticky differential saga.
Third: tire model isn't empirical as some of the most known sims have and among all of them there is a proper thermal exchange model at work. Even tire damaging modes are calculated even though I'm told some of them are used (flatspots) and some aren't actively used (graining, blistering etc.) pending proper tuning. In general there is more to them than just "match 27.6 psi and you are good".
Fourth: power units elements like the turbos or the hybrid are modeled as what they are not as just an increase in torque in a table of output
Fifth: there are inside the engine models of gearbox, clutch and other mechanical elements that while they appear trivial, they pave the way for the advanced damage model and the car reliability implementation that are coming and will include also the AI.
Sixth: the only sim in the market today that will allow you to choose any setting of weather progression from random with probability season based to actual historical conditions for the last 40 years for pretty much every track and there are many
Seventh: the upcoming FCY is something that no other sim has since it is anticipated to be able to accommodate many different types of FCY/SC conditions both on ovals and on road courses. In the latter it will "understand" the severity of the incident and based on certain conditions it will trigger or not the FCY/SC. Surely initially it will have quirks, but it is by far the most ambitious FCY/SC/VSC attempt in the market.

Other random thoughts on smaller stuff: it seems like until not many weeks/months ago, a benchmark of physics like RF2 had a very limited brake cooling model (not differentiating between front and rear) and limited/absent engine cooling simulation. It appears to be not the only one of the simulators having somewhat simplified such models.
It must be said that today AMS2 has both full fledged models including AI as of recent.

In simple words, you can find some cool features similar to those above in one simulator or another, but there is no other simulator that has all of them at the same time.
If I had to highlight a department that could use some advancement in AMS2 it is the "electronic aids" and the car dashes not being 100% "live" in all elements.
Then there is the entire MP side of things (but that we have discussed). And surely we can discuss about AI and for instance their pit strategies. But the point is AMS2 has a combination of the biggest pile of advanced features and the widest range of cars/tracks and therefore huge potential if we users can be a bit patient (surely not 10 years like some other sims who are still missing most of those features)
Surely I am forgetting some of those cool neglected things ME does and no one see/remember.. But to me it seems already quite a lot.

Oh and I forgot: the highest frequency physics in the market at 600 Hz also is there since 2014.

And I would add that all of the above is done while allowing people with average systems to run great graphics and hands down the best and more accessible VR of the block. Or in simple words you don't need a nuclear power plant attached to your PC to enjoy all of the goodies.

Lefthook said:

Look at the peak numbers of AMS2. Compare that to how many players on average there are now. It's less than half. Not hard math to figure out. Why are current numbers well shy of half of the peak? Is it because the users love the game too much to play it? I can buy that the average person has heard of F1 and maybe ACC or AC, but no one outside of simracing has heard of RF2. That is a load of bull. Now who is pulling stuff out of thin air.
You're fine using positive reviews to justify your stance but my numbers are made up and just my gut feeling according to you. My point regarding the handling was that some people here are saying the it's great as is when the developers themselves are saying the upcoming update is heavily focused on physics and have admitted to odd/ poor tire behavior, but when someone says it here it is hate and nonsense. Ok, whatever. No point continuing this conversation because it isn't going in a positive direction. If you reply it will be a waste of time because I'm not going to read it. But if it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

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Okay since you love your numbers and RF2 so much let's compare the both of them now.

AMS2 90 percent positive recent reviews on steam

RF2 68 percent positive recent reviews on steam

So tell me again which sim is in a better state now

another thread going nowhere
my sim is better than yours
I can feel it in my bones

gamer19 said:

another thread going nowhere
my sim is better than yours
I can feel it in my bones

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I agree, but since the articles up nearly a week I figure those who were interested will have gotten the info and moved on.
So hopefully when the actual update article appears it can rest on its own laurels without the usual tooing and froing.

@wolftree

I was having pedal issues last night with Windows I'd assume, which lead me to digging into the in-game controller settings and found some odd things.
Throttle had a 8% deadzone and the brake sensitivity was only at 30% with a 8% deadzone, I lowered the throttle deadzone and increased the brake sensitivity to 50% with a 3% deadzone as I sometimes rest my foot on the side of the brake.

In the tuning setup the base tune runs abs/TC at 8, where as the other two sims base was much lower or was set to track with min abs/tc.

End result, far less understeer as I mentioned earlier and greatly improved braking and on throttle acceleration.

The braking sensitivity was probably the biggest improvement, for months I was always wondering, how the hell ai and online drivers were braking so deep into the zone?
When ever I would attempt, the brakes would feel delayed and I would just blow through the zone.

The lower tc/abs also gives
the car alot more feeling and better rotation