Automobilista 2 | 'Biggest Update Yet' Coming Soon

MadDriver11 · Aug 17, 2022

Lefthook said:
You don't have to see meh responses. The fact that AMS2 is basically dead last in player base of currently supported racing titles tells you that.

It's also the only sim with practically zero advertising in any media. RF2 spends millions in advertising and marketing (you can check MSG balance sheet as it is public) and the players count is probably 50-100 players more as average per day.
AMS2 is also a sim that has virtually no MP tools for leagues or any form of organized events although they are all being worked on as well as some endurance racing capabilities have been teased by the developers in the forum for the future.
Once MP is developed and official events/servers are on and some ads will be placed numbers will increase.
Unfortunately the number of players isn't representative of the quality of driving experience but rather of many other factors most of which are slow to come by if you don't invest big $$$$

Lefthook · Aug 17, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
It's also the only sim with practically zero advertising in any media. RF2 spends millions in advertising and marketing (you can check MSG balance sheet as it is public) and the players count is probably 50-100 players more as average per day.
AMS2 is also a sim that has virtually no MP tools for leagues or any form of organized events although they are all being worked on as well as some endurance racing capabilities have been teased by the developers in the forum for the future.
Once MP is developed and official events/servers are on and some ads will be placed numbers will increase.
Unfortunately the number of players isn't representative of the quality of driving experience but rather of many other factors most of which are slow to come by if you don't invest big $$$$

I still have a lot of optimism for the game, but I don't agree with most of what you said. First of all, RF2 is unpopular for very good reasons but it still does almost double what AMS2 does. Secondly, in regards to marketing, every single simracer I know owns at least 2 racing titles and every one of them has heard of AMS2. Many of them own it. It is very well known that AMS2 uses the PCars 2 engine and that alone leads to people being aware of it. Do you honestly think there are many Project Cars 2 owners out there, or any simracer that chooses a simulation vs a more arcade type game that doesn't know about AMS2? Everyone that visits this site or watches MuscleGamer or watches Simracer604 knows about AMS2, yet they are choosing not to play it. BeamNG is a small company and they don't advertise all over the place yet they have a good following.
I don't know why it is so difficult for the small dedicated fanbase to understand it is more of a case of people not liking the game in its current state than it is that they haven't heard of it.
I get it, AMS2 is clearly your favorite title and I have seen your username on several forums defending this game endlessly from day 1 and I really do hope it gets there, but many people are frustrated with the game and that is a bigger reason more people don't play it. This is the last I will say as I am not trying to hijack the thread. Despite what you might interpret from my words, I want this to be my main sim. I'm just frustrated with the progress.

M0dernT1mes · Aug 17, 2022

Lefthook said:
You don't have to see meh responses. The fact that AMS2 is basically dead last in player base of currently supported racing titles tells you that.
It can be turned around, but there are some key things that need improvement with multiplayer being one of them. I know a few people are not pleased that 2 and a half years into full release and MP hasn't had much improvement.
It's great that you enjoy all the content and hopefully the game continues to improve and more people get onboard, but the numbers indicate that the majority of people don't like the game in its current state for whatever reason. 1.4 will no doubt move the game forward but I don't think it will be a revelation that will have the sim community buzzing either.

Where are those meh responses though? It has like a 91 percent positive recent steam reviews which indicates that the people who buy it love the sim in it's current state. I also don't get your reasoning that player numbers are correlated to the quality of the sim It is above all about marketing, which Reiza hasn't done much.

And no, people won't flock to AMS2 after a MP update, certainly not after pumping thousands of dollars and hours in Iracing. Reiza should imo focus on becoming THE offline sim, and they could do that by implementing a fully fledged career mode, something no other sim has.

Better to find the niche, than to become the copy.

wolftree · Aug 17, 2022

Kurupt CDN said:
I've been running alot of GT4's across several sims of late.
I like what Reiza has done recently, the only thing with the current tire model I find is different is it lacks a little grip in high speed turns that results in understeer.

Not saying you're wrong, but how do you know it's because of the tyre model instead of the aero model? When I was cross-testing GT4s between sims, my lap times were pretty much in line across the board (mind you this was pre 1.3) and since then the AMS2 GT4s have gotten faster.

MadDriver11 · Aug 17, 2022

Lefthook said:
I still have a lot of optimism for the game, but I don't agree with most of what you said. First of all, RF2 is unpopular for very good reasons but it still does almost double what AMS2 does. Secondly, in regards to marketing, every single simracer I know owns at least 2 racing titles and every one of them has heard of AMS2. Many of them own it. It is very well known that AMS2 uses the PCars 2 engine and that alone leads to people being aware of it. Do you honestly think there are many Project Cars 2 owners out there, or any simracer that chooses a simulation vs a more arcade type game that doesn't know about AMS2? Everyone that visits this site or watches MuscleGamer or watches Simracer604 knows about AMS2, yet they are choosing not to play it. BeamNG is a small company and they don't advertise all over the place yet they have a good following.
I don't know why it is so difficult for the small dedicated fanbase to understand it is more of a case of people not liking the game in its current state than it is that they haven't heard of it.
I get it, AMS2 is clearly your favorite title and I have seen your username on several forums defending this game endlessly from day 1 and I really do hope it gets there, but many people are frustrated with the game and that is a bigger reason more people don't play it. This is the last I will say as I am not trying to hijack the thread. Despite what you might interpret from my words, I want this to be my main sim. I'm just frustrated with the progress.

I think you overestimate the level of awareness of people on AMS2. I have colleagues who are very fond of both real racing and simracing who use ACC and iracing and never heard about AMS2 until we had a chat at the coffee machine.
There are large sectors of people using iracing and other sims who never heard about AMS2 and even if they heard the name the know little about it or at best they know it's a clone of PC2.
The above is where ads come in: showcasing to people to good stuff that is in a product. That is why SRO/Fanatec pay trips to the 24H of Spa to their best streamers, that is why MSG pays Grosjean to be a testimonial for their Indycars and that has a return in terms of popularity.

rFactor 2 - Steam Charts

An ongoing analysis of Steam's player numbers, seeing what's been played the most.

steamcharts.com

Automobilista 2 - Steam Charts

An ongoing analysis of Steam's player numbers, seeing what's been played the most.

steamcharts.com

Looking at popularity... When you check the charts for the past 3 months you can see that lines show a trend of about 450-500 people a day for AMS2 vs 650-700 for RF2 in the weeks before the update. Not really double even if you consider earlier trend that was more into 750.
For that you need to consider all of the millions that RF2 is spending and the fact that AMS2 has virtually no MP.
MP today is a good half of the players even according to the most recent survey Reiza mentioned (but IMHO it is more than 50% of the customers) so when AMS2 will have a properly ready MP with events I see chances to zero up the distance with RF2
Some more hardcore simplayers have them all including me, but not all of them.
Like I said, what I like or think is realistic has almost always zero to do with popularity. Access to ads and influencer to convince users has far more impact.
There are still many things that need improvement in AMS2 but definitely physics is not one of them. I spent the past couple of weeks on whole other sims (ACC and RF2) and frankly their physics show very clearly their limits and flaws especially compared to what AMS2 simulates today and even more compared to what is coming with v1.4.
Unfortunately, this is not the key parameter to gain popularity for many reasons that have been discussed in this forum ad nauseam.
As I said, as a proper automotive engineer, I would not change AMS2 physics for that of ACC even if that would make the sim gain popularity and the objective (thanks God) from Reiza is not to make a clone of it.
The problem is marketing is capable of convincing large crowds unaware of vehicle dynamics that GT3 drive like they do in ACC and this is what the steam chart say IMHO. Not much more other than the fact that today without a good MP you go nowhere.

pai · Aug 17, 2022

AMS2 using PC2 engine, for many people, is bad news, bad publicity, and a reason to stay away from it. It's absolutely not helping marketing of the title. In fact, if Reiza decides to up the ante with publicity, they should show off all they have, and never ever mention that it uses Madness engine in the promo ads.

Kurupt CDN · Aug 17, 2022

wolftree said:
Not saying you're wrong, but how do you know it's because of the tyre model instead of the aero model? When I was cross-testing GT4s between sims, my lap times were pretty much in line across the board (mind you this was pre 1.3) and since then the AMS2 GT4s have gotten faster.

It could be the rear aero producing too much downforce causing the understeer.
I've tried tuning it out, with min rear wing, more front toe, tire pressure, sway bar etc.
But it still understeers in those high speed turns.
Only way I can get the front end to stick is to tap the brakes to shift some weight to the front tires.
If I don't it just plows off track.
I'm sure things will improve with 1.4

wolftree · Aug 17, 2022

Kurupt CDN said:
It could be the rear aero producing too much downforce causing the understeer.
I've tried tuning it out, with min rear wing, more front toe, tire pressure, sway bar etc.
But it still understeers in those high speed turns.
Only way I can get the front end to stick is to tap the brakes to shift some weight to the front tires.
If I don't it just plows off track.
I'm sure things will improve with 1.4

AFAIK the GT4s already have updated tyres. I'm not sure why you think the update is going to remove high-speed understeer (what corner, what car, how much fuel, what track conditions?) if that's beyond the physical cornering g of the specific car.

Richard Wilks · Aug 17, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
I think you overestimate the level of awareness of people on AMS2. I have colleagues who are very fond of both real racing and simracing who use ACC and iracing and never heard about AMS2 until we had a chat at the coffee machine.
There are large sectors of people using iracing and other sims who never heard about AMS2 and even if they heard the name the know little about it or at best they know it's a clone of PC2.
The above is where ads come in: showcasing to people to good stuff that is in a product. That is why SRO/Fanatec pay trips to the 24H of Spa to their best streamers, that is why MSG pays Grosjean to be a testimonial for their Indycars and that has a return in terms of popularity.

rFactor 2 - Steam Charts

An ongoing analysis of Steam's player numbers, seeing what's been played the most.

steamcharts.com

Automobilista 2 - Steam Charts

An ongoing analysis of Steam's player numbers, seeing what's been played the most.

steamcharts.com

Looking at popularity... When you check the charts for the past 3 months you can see that lines show a trend of about 450-500 people a day for AMS2 vs 650-700 for RF2 in the weeks before the update. Not really double even if you consider earlier trend that was more into 750.
For that you need to consider all of the millions that RF2 is spending and the fact that AMS2 has virtually no MP.
MP today is a good half of the players even according to the most recent survey Reiza mentioned (but IMHO it is more than 50% of the customers) so when AMS2 will have a properly ready MP with events I see chances to zero up the distance with RF2
Some more hardcore simplayers have them all including me, but not all of them.
Like I said, what I like or think is realistic has almost always zero to do with popularity. Access to ads and influencer to convince users has far more impact.
There are still many things that need improvement in AMS2 but definitely physics is not one of them. I spent the past couple of weeks on whole other sims (ACC and RF2) and frankly their physics show very clearly their limits and flaws especially compared to what AMS2 simulates today and even more compared to what is coming with v1.4.
Unfortunately, this is not the key parameter to gain popularity for many reasons that have been discussed in this forum ad nauseam.
As I said, as a proper automotive engineer, I would not change AMS2 physics for that of ACC even if that would make the sim gain popularity and the objective (thanks God) from Reiza is not to make a clone of it.
The problem is marketing is capable of convincing large crowds unaware of vehicle dynamics that GT3 drive like they do in ACC and this is what the steam chart say IMHO. Not much more other than the fact that today without a good MP you go nowhere.

This sounds like a total Deja vu to me. Probably because this exact same conversation happened in discord nearly two years ago.

And i will say the same i said then.

AMS2 popularity or not has nothing to do with publicity. People already gave examples in this thread of niche games that are very popular.

Nor will MP fixes improve the situation much. Altough those would at least help the leagues and stabilize the userbase around them.

AMS2 main problem is that it has no focus.

ACC is the GT3 game.

iRacing is the WOW of simracing game.

beamNG is the crash game.

AC1 is the drifter/roamer/youtuber car review game.

What is AMS2? Its ironic that you compare it with rf2, because rf2 has the exact same problem. As well as R3E. And not surprisingly these 3 games are at the bottom of the list, and suffer in the exact same way.

The "whole encompassing" game works for the giants like GT, Forza, or at a smaller scale PCars. But why would you play AMS2 over these? Physics? GT and Forza do all the rest better.

Because you want to drive some late 90s CART car? Well maybe, but the game is not focused around that. Sure the cars are there, but not the full roster,not the full calendar. The same for all the other cars. Only maybe the Brazilian stock cars have the complete set, but can that carry the game outside brazil?...

Publicity gets you nowhere, if you dont have nothing special to sell. AMS1 was promoted to death by none other than Jimmy Broadbent, and even had mods going for it, unlike AMS2, yet nobody played it.

AMS2 doesnt even have proper mods, and part of the game is unlicensed fantasy F1s, which makes it look like a cheap copycat. Why would you play that over the likes of full field F1 mods in rf2 or AC1? Sure the madness engine is incredibly competent, and that is a massive plus, but it's being let down by a team that is hellbent on making just another PCars2 but with different physics and fantasy cars thrown there.

I am not ignoring the massive work they have done to flesh out the game, techically reiza is working very well, and i am not ashamed to say that they have surprised me in a good way this year specially, but in the end, the user can't see that before investing in it, and it wont invest if it doesnt see anything that the game does different from others.

Until then, AMS2 will remain what it is now, a game that people have in their library, and fire up just once in a while for a quick lap or race.

Kurupt CDN · Aug 17, 2022

Over the yrs of following Reiza, I've realized that they always produce an excellent product regardless of the engine used (content on 3 engines)

After 10 yrs I've accepted the fact that their products simply aren't popular among the masses and one of the reasons, is they have never gotten any mainstream licenses to a series, but frankly, I enjoy the niche Brazilian content, the modern stock cars series are why I buy their titles.

IMO a multiplayer make-over isn't gonna draw the masses and I'd be surprised if it raised the player counts by a few hundred when it does happen.
Hopefully, I'm proven wrong

Now that I think of it, the most enjoyable and the majority of my mp racing I've done in Reiza titles, has been here at RD and it always followed a similar trend....Good turnouts for several weeks then die off

Personally, I hope they tackle the AI and single-player mode next, so I have more reasons to fire up the game.
In the game's current state, I just find myself, more or less hot lapping, testing updated content that interests me which honestly is getting a bit stale, cause you wanna do more with that gem you found but realize AI and mp are lacking.

I have to agree with @MadDriver11 on its overall popularity or lack of.
Ex. On the iracing forms under other games, there are 2 Automobilista threads.
1. labeled ....Do I need iRacing now that I have AMS2....8 responses from 4 members, last response Dec. 21, 2021.
The other, AMS2 general discussion...last response Feb. 8th, 2022

Some full series licensing, advertising, and good publicity from a stream could go a long way.

kaijuh · Aug 17, 2022

Why is the madness engine bad? It seems a somewhat recurrent thing I see on comments

MadDriver11 · Aug 17, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
This sounds like a total Deja vu to me. Probably because this exact same conversation happened in discord nearly two years ago.

And i will say the same i said then.

AMS2 popularity or not has nothing to do with publicity. People already gave examples in this thread of niche games that are very popular.

Nor will MP fixes improve the situation much. Altough those would at least help the leagues and stabilize the userbase around them.

AMS2 main problem is that it has no focus.

ACC is the GT3 game.

iRacing is the WOW of simracing game.

beamNG is the crash game.

AC1 is the drifter/roamer/youtuber car review game.

What is AMS2? Its ironic that you compare it with rf2, because rf2 has the exact same problem. As well as R3E. And not surprisingly these 3 games are at the bottom of the list, and suffer in the exact same way.

The "whole encompassing" game works for the giants like GT, Forza, or at a smaller scale PCars. But why would you play AMS2 over these? Physics? GT and Forza do all the rest better.

Because you want to drive some late 90s CART car? Well maybe, but the game is not focused around that. Sure the cars are there, but not the full roster,not the full calendar. The same for all the other cars. Only maybe the Brazilian stock cars have the complete set, but can that carry the game outside brazil?...

Publicity gets you nowhere, if you dont have nothing special to sell. AMS1 was promoted to death by none other than Jimmy Broadbent, and even had mods going for it, unlike AMS2, yet nobody played it.

AMS2 doesnt even have proper mods, and part of the game is unlicensed fantasy F1s, which makes it look like a cheap copycat. Why would you play that over the likes of full field F1 mods in rf2 or AC1? Sure the madness engine is incredibly competent, and that is a massive plus, but it's being let down by a team that is hellbent on making just another PCars2 but with different physics and fantasy cars thrown there.

I am not ignoring the massive work they have done to flesh out the game, techically reiza is working very well, and i am not ashamed to say that they have surprised me in a good way this year specially, but in the end, the user can't see that before investing in it, and it wont invest if it doesnt see anything that the game does different from others.

Until then, AMS2 will remain what it is now, a game that people have in their library, and fire up just once in a while for a quick lap or race.

You said it yourself: nothing will ever compare to iracing and ACC. Their marketing has created a halo and a position in the market that goes far beyond what the quality of simulation would warrant.
This cannot be recreated unless you have an accomplished platform for MP and lots of money for the advertising and the testimonials.
AMS2 will never be in position to reach that popularity for the simple fact they do not have the money to push it there.
Yet if I don't want to drive GT3s only and I want something that drives better than a truck (while costing you a fortune for "renting" cars) the only choices you have are RF2, RR and AMS2.
The market is there and you do not need mods or being king of a specific niche to attract users. You need a solid all around sim (which AMS2 isn't yet especially from MP stand point) and then some good marketing which Reiza is not (yet?) doing. MP in itself is free marketing nowadays and that is why it is so important.
All of this takes time. Even when people say that AMS2 is over 2 years in the market and they got bored of waiting it sounds a bit of a laughable excuse for prejudice: can anyone name a new sim from the last 2 years? None.
Do these people realize that all other options including iracing are on the market since almost a decade and yet have far less advanced features implemented than AMS2?

BlaKArg · Aug 17, 2022

kaijuh said:
Why is the madness engine bad?

It's not.

kaijuh · Aug 17, 2022

BlaKArg said:
It's not.

It seems a somewhat recurrent thing I see on comments. I read a few F1 ASM 2 reviews and I just bought the game on steam.

I will see how good it is before I drop a hundo on the season pass

kaijuh · Aug 17, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
You said it yourself: nothing will ever compare to iracing and ACC. Their marketing has created a halo and a position in the market that goes far beyond what the quality of simulation would warrant.
This cannot be recreated unless you have an accomplished platform for MP and lots of money for the advertising and the testimonials.
AMS2 will never be in position to reach that popularity for the simple fact they do not have the money to push it there.
Yet if I don't want to drive GT3s only and I want something that drives better than a truck (while costing you a fortune for "renting" cars) the only choices you have are RF2, RR and AMS2.
The market is there and you do not need mods or being king of a specific niche to attract users. You need a solid all around sim (which AMS2 isn't yet especially from MP stand point) and then some good marketing which Reiza is not (yet?) doing. MP in itself is free marketing nowadays and that is why it is so important.
All of this takes time. Even when people say that AMS2 is over 2 years in the market and they got bored of waiting it sounds a bit of a laughable excuse for prejudice: can anyone name a new sim from the last 2 years? None.
Do these people realize that all other options including iracing are on the market since almost a decade and yet have far less advanced features implemented than AMS2?

so TLDR:

Automobilista 2 is a more realistic simulator than both iracing and ACC?

pai · Aug 17, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
This sounds like a total Deja vu to me. Probably because this exact same conversation happened in discord nearly two years ago.

And i will say the same i said then.

AMS2 popularity or not has nothing to do with publicity. People already gave examples in this thread of niche games that are very popular.

Nor will MP fixes improve the situation much. Altough those would at least help the leagues and stabilize the userbase around them.

AMS2 main problem is that it has no focus.

ACC is the GT3 game.

iRacing is the WOW of simracing game.

beamNG is the crash game.

AC1 is the drifter/roamer/youtuber car review game.

What is AMS2? Its ironic that you compare it with rf2, because rf2 has the exact same problem. As well as R3E. And not surprisingly these 3 games are at the bottom of the list, and suffer in the exact same way.

The "whole encompassing" game works for the giants like GT, Forza, or at a smaller scale PCars. But why would you play AMS2 over these? Physics? GT and Forza do all the rest better.

Because you want to drive some late 90s CART car? Well maybe, but the game is not focused around that. Sure the cars are there, but not the full roster,not the full calendar. The same for all the other cars. Only maybe the Brazilian stock cars have the complete set, but can that carry the game outside brazil?...

Publicity gets you nowhere, if you dont have nothing special to sell. AMS1 was promoted to death by none other than Jimmy Broadbent, and even had mods going for it, unlike AMS2, yet nobody played it.

AMS2 doesnt even have proper mods, and part of the game is unlicensed fantasy F1s, which makes it look like a cheap copycat. Why would you play that over the likes of full field F1 mods in rf2 or AC1? Sure the madness engine is incredibly competent, and that is a massive plus, but it's being let down by a team that is hellbent on making just another PCars2 but with different physics and fantasy cars thrown there.

I am not ignoring the massive work they have done to flesh out the game, techically reiza is working very well, and i am not ashamed to say that they have surprised me in a good way this year specially, but in the end, the user can't see that before investing in it, and it wont invest if it doesnt see anything that the game does different from others.

Until then, AMS2 will remain what it is now, a game that people have in their library, and fire up just once in a while for a quick lap or race.

Perhaps this is why AMS2 has potential with a fully fledged career mode for the offline racer. It's their main chance to have a public well known feature that differentiates them from the other games. The content for making it possible is already available, from rental kartings to F1, with several possibilities in between to simulate possible career branching.

Kurupt CDN · Aug 17, 2022

wolftree said:
AFAIK the GT4s already have updated tyres. I'm not sure why you think the update is going to remove high-speed understeer (what corner, what car, how much fuel, what track conditions?) if that's beyond the physical cornering g of the specific car.

Yes, the tires have been updated across several series, Reiza said they will be doing some finer tweaking to all classes in the 1.4.
Reading the beta channel logs it shows a few tweaks have been made to the GT4 class.

For all I know, their model could be spot on.

I just mentioned the one difference that stood out when driving across 3 titles

grocam3 · Aug 17, 2022

Richard Wilks said:
This sounds like a total Deja vu to me. Probably because this exact same conversation happened in discord nearly two years ago.

And i will say the same i said then.

AMS2 popularity or not has nothing to do with publicity. People already gave examples in this thread of niche games that are very popular.

Nor will MP fixes improve the situation much. Altough those would at least help the leagues and stabilize the userbase around them.

AMS2 main problem is that it has no focus.

ACC is the GT3 game.

iRacing is the WOW of simracing game.

beamNG is the crash game.

AC1 is the drifter/roamer/youtuber car review game.

What is AMS2? Its ironic that you compare it with rf2, because rf2 has the exact same problem. As well as R3E. And not surprisingly these 3 games are at the bottom of the list, and suffer in the exact same way.

The "whole encompassing" game works for the giants like GT, Forza, or at a smaller scale PCars. But why would you play AMS2 over these? Physics? GT and Forza do all the rest better.

Because you want to drive some late 90s CART car? Well maybe, but the game is not focused around that. Sure the cars are there, but not the full roster,not the full calendar. The same for all the other cars. Only maybe the Brazilian stock cars have the complete set, but can that carry the game outside brazil?...

Publicity gets you nowhere, if you dont have nothing special to sell. AMS1 was promoted to death by none other than Jimmy Broadbent, and even had mods going for it, unlike AMS2, yet nobody played it.

AMS2 doesnt even have proper mods, and part of the game is unlicensed fantasy F1s, which makes it look like a cheap copycat. Why would you play that over the likes of full field F1 mods in rf2 or AC1? Sure the madness engine is incredibly competent, and that is a massive plus, but it's being let down by a team that is hellbent on making just another PCars2 but with different physics and fantasy cars thrown there.

I am not ignoring the massive work they have done to flesh out the game, techically reiza is working very well, and i am not ashamed to say that they have surprised me in a good way this year specially, but in the end, the user can't see that before investing in it, and it wont invest if it doesnt see anything that the game does different from others.

Until then, AMS2 will remain what it is now, a game that people have in their library, and fire up just once in a while for a quick lap or race.

Ok lets keep it simple, the focus :

Full fledged different type of F1 cars, a modern sim with the most number of historic tracks available by a large margin' , a follow up more focused physics game than PC2 (I may say a bit more refined on the ffb, driving feeling) with the underestimated madness engine + livetrack etc..
Real weather configurations, no modding required, you get loads of content out of the box.

grocam3 · Aug 17, 2022

Lefthook · Aug 17, 2022

wolftree said:
The average car in AMS2 now feels no better or worse than the average S397 car in rF2, which is supposed to be the pinnacle of tyre physics (why?), so idk where this "awful and inconsistent tyres" moaning is coming from.

Weird how there was a post just today from a staff member citing the odd tire behaviour I mentioned and how they believe they have it nailed down for the upcoming 1.4 release.
Guess I'm just making this stuff up though, right?

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