Worried about the future of rF2

[Richard Eriksson]

As the topic suggests...

As a long time ISI supporter and follower, i am now feeling a bit worried for the future.The number of new users coming in to rFactor2 seems to be dwindling.

Also there is a long time between the new official content. And even when there is official content released, it seems to fail to gather an interest (Civics in December) amongst the yet unitiated.

Also, the mod community seems a lot more reluctant than for rF1, with very few members adding content.This is even more worrying as it was the foundation of rF1 and a big selling point for bringing more people to the franchise (race anything you like).

ISI now also faces a stiff competition as the "sim" genre has become "hot" again with more titles in the works, that seem to gather a LOT more interest: AC, pCars etc.

The old veterans like myself are finding ourselves drawn to the likes of GSC, and newcomers are moving towards AC and probably DTM Experience.


I start this topic to see if someone shares my worries, and also to discuss if something can be done to once again bring more interest to rF2?


My personal idea is to go for Steam greenlighting (i actually REALLY like Steam as a platform), to gain exposure and also simplify the purchasing as well as updating.
Connecting it to Workshop makes modding interesting again, like what AC proposes.


I want rF2 to succeed, it is by far the most comprehensive take on simulating the actual race mechanics and based on that it should be the goto title for the serious sim-user, but right now i fear it is not.


Discussions on graphics i will however discard personally, as a) rF2 is pretty enough and b) the prettiest of settings in something like pCars is inaccesible to 95% of users.


So, what is your view of the status of the product?



Points of improvement needed going forward as identified in this thread so far:

* Better GUI (incoming)
* Steam integration and release
* Possible new distribution method that would automate updates and sync, if not steam
* New official content
* More transparent development
* Shorter build intervals
* More efficient code and optimization of codebase
* A possibility to "lock down" the core functionality, to deliver something considered stable and final
* New updater that allows automatic updating of content as well, including adding NEW
content

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

To me sim racing with a gamepad feels just as odd as playing a shooter with a steering-wheel. Of course it can be done, but its ... wrong.

@Nicolas Delamare : is one of the fastest drivers in rF2. Maybe he is a possible podium candidate for the VWSR F3.5 (no assists).

I've played racing games with a keyboard or gamepad for years. I can relate to what he is telling.

Back on topic: I'm not worried about rF2 with a gamepad.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

@Nicolas Delamare : is one of the fastest drivers in rF2. Maybe he is a possible podium candidate for the VWSR F3.5 (no assists).

I've played racing games with a keyboard or gamepad for years. I can relate to what he is telling.

Back on topic: I'm not worried about rF2 with a gamepad.

I was really astonished to hear he is playing with a pad. We went wheel to wheel in several club races and I never thought you could drive wheel to wheel with over-under, defending etc. with a gamepad. I did race against a fast "padder" in the early stages of rF2, but he got a wheel later and was even a bit quicker.
I can relate to it as I drove BMW M3 Challange and Race07 a lot with a keyboard and was reasonably fast. When I got a wheel I had to adapt first, but was amazed what a 150€ Logitech G25 could deliver.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

No doubt about speed. You can be as fast with a pad as with a wheel. I just can't understand that long time simmers stick to a pad only because they are fast with it.

Nothing gives me more satisfaction and immersion than grabbing that wheel and putting my feet on the pedals.

But personal preferences of course

 

[Nicolas Delamare]

It's also a question of cost: I like to save money as much as I can (I'm not rich), and also because when I will buy a wheel, I'll certainly lost in performance, maybe 2-3 seconds per lap (or more).
And I want to be competitive right now ! I'll probably buy a wheel in the future, but I want to do that properly: the right playseat, where to put it, what kind of pedal, where to put the mouse and keyboard around all that equipment !

I don't want to play with a G27, with the pedals just in front of the electric multitap, with FFB rumble the whole desktop ! I have a 22" screen and it's not enough to be immersed (imagine a wheel the same size than the screen...) !

It's all or nothing..but never say never, of course !

 

[Ricky78]

@Ricky78, Intel I5 3570k, overclocked at 4.3GHz. across all four cores constant (no throttling or speedstep active). Bus speed slightly increased.

Thanks, that's probably the reason because I'm far from your performance levels...

 

[John Peat]

@trjp, Neither the Howstons or the Skippy is "broken". The Howstons behave very alike to a 60s/early 70s prototype car (and i have actually driven one once in real life, they are SCARY on cold tires).

The problem isn't really what they do at speed - it's that they are super-slidey at low-speed so you have to park them to corner them! Hell, the AI can't even drive them - check this (90% AI IIRC)

That's 'broken' in my book - put the AI into a race and they just 'queue-up' - often stopping entirely when the driver at the front has a brain-out ;0

The Skippys are better - the AI can drive them at least - but they're far, far too hard to drive given than they are supposedly a 'training car'. When the 'F1' car is easier to drive you have to ask yourself what's going on - the Skippy is meant to be a training car, light and nimble and rewarding - not a leery mess of a thing. Hell the classic Formula cars are EASIER to drive ;0

 

[John Peat]

To me sim racing with a gamepad feels just as odd as playing a shooter with a steering-wheel. Of course it can be done, but its ... wrong.

It's not the controller, it's the person at the controls - wheels are great but no substitute for talent ;0

End of the day, a good wheel costs big bucks and takes up loads of space - it's just not an option for many people and I'm one of them. Some people also can't use wheels or pedals - and my fingers are FAR more dextrous than your feet ;0

There is really only 1 proper downside to a pad - it takes both your hands to drive which means you can't easily scratch your nose without crashing. Everything else is preparation(C) Jackie Stewart ;0

 

[John Peat]

To elaborate a bit - so long as I can configure the pad properly, I will race wheel-to-wheel with anyone, confident I'm no more likely to bin us than they are. I think you'll be surprised how many people race with pads - and they don't need any "aids" to do it, just config. options (and some talent).

The only game I've played which really lacks config options is iRacing - you have to choose between 'twitchy' and 'vague', it's impossible position a car with any accuracy AND avoid binning it when you overcorrect something.

AC is particularly good - I actually race with my pad setup 'as a wheel' - I am using a wheel as far as the game is concerned - I show-up as a 'wheel' user to other players (abeit a wheel called "XBOX 360 for Windows" )

 

[William Wester]

I'm sure many with pads are faster than me with a wheel, but to me being good/fast in virtual racing with a pad is irrelevant. I just can't get the immersion level I'm looking for. To each their own, only stating my preference, I need a good FFB wheel/pedals or I wouldn't even bother playing "sim" type racing games. Arcade games are another matter, a wheel doesn't help much as so much is just wrong to being with.

 

[John Peat]

Agreed on the immersion every time

You've invoked my other pet peeve tho - differentiating "arcade" and 'sim' - where 'arcade' (or worse, 'simcade') is usually used as a term of derision for games someone deems 'somehow below them'.

Outrun is an arcade game - there are many degrees of racing game between that and the stuff we're talking about and they all reward what you put into them in some way or another.

Hell, I'm sure Outrun is more fun with a wheel ;0

 

[Erwin Greven]

The problem isn't really what they do at speed - it's that they are super-slidey at low-speed so you have to park them to corner them! Hell, the AI can't even drive them - check this (90% AI IIRC)

That's 'broken' in my book - put the AI into a race and they just 'queue-up' - often stopping entirely when the driver at the front has a brain-out ;0

The Skippys are better - the AI can drive them at least - but they're far, far too hard to drive given than they are supposedly a 'training car'. When the 'F1' car is easier to drive you have to ask yourself what's going on - the Skippy is meant to be a training car, light and nimble and rewarding - not a leery mess of a thing. Hell the classic Formula cars are EASIER to drive ;0

I don't want to sound harsh, but try to change your driving style a bit with these cars.
Smooth on the throttle and when you apply the the brakes, first brake and then after a small amount of time release slowly the throttle. When you are rough on the throttle and brakes the car unsettles very easily. And beware the cars are a bit heavy with lower grip rates. All those 60-70's car were like that.

 

[James Maskell]

I don't want to sound harsh, but try to change your driving style a bit with these cars.
Smooth on the throttle and when you apply the the brakes, first brake and then after a small amount of time release slowly the throttle. When you are rough on the throttle and brakes the car unsettles very easily. And beware the cars are a bit heavy with lower grip rates. All those 60-70's car were like that.

Thats not him driving (in the video), that is the AI and it looks like they haven't been programmed very well to drive the Howston.

EDIT: But yes you do have to be very smooth with these cars.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

The problem isn't really what they do at speed - it's that they are super-slidey at low-speed so you have to park them to corner them! Hell, the AI can't even drive them - check this (90% AI IIRC)

That's 'broken' in my book - put the AI into a race and they just 'queue-up' - often stopping entirely when the driver at the front has a brain-out ;0

The Skippys are better - the AI can drive them at least - but they're far, far too hard to drive given than they are supposedly a 'training car'. When the 'F1' car is easier to drive you have to ask yourself what's going on - the Skippy is meant to be a training car, light and nimble and rewarding - not a leery mess of a thing. Hell the classic Formula cars are EASIER to drive ;0

The AI seem broken, but to be honest a car like the skippy for example needs a proper wheel setup to control it. I think you have a hard time controlling the lift off oversteer with a gamepad. You cant really judge physics by using a gamepad. Especially on cars like the skippy, BTCC Honda or the classic cars.
I know that even Nicolas with his mad gamepad skills cant drive all the cars as he hasnt enough control with his pad to drive them properly.
It is basically like judging the sound of an e-guitar without using an amplifier.

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

It is basically like judging the sound of an e-guitar without using an amplifier.

If you don't know what Freddy meant with this e-guitar thing: click here.

 

[Jyri Kettunen]

After a proper FFB setup I can manage Houston better than before, but what irks me is that under braking the rear starts "automatically" turning into corners regardless of wheel input. This is not a brake balance issue, but something like steering help option, where the rear "knows" if I'm going to turn left or right, before I actually do it. This results in very little steering needed into corners, but I'm pretty sure Lola T-70 didn't behave like this.

 

[David O'Reilly]

After a proper FFB setup I can manage Houston better than before, but what irks me is that under braking the rear starts "automatically" turning into corners regardless of wheel input. This is not a brake balance issue, but something like steering help option, where the rear "knows" if I'm going to turn left or right, before I actually do it. This results in very little steering needed into corners, but I'm pretty sure Lola T-70 didn't behave like this.

I'm not so sure.
These cars had quite agricultural chassis and a lot of Horsepower and Cross Ply tyres. With an engine behind you the moment you brake that big lump of 7 litre American Iron wants to overtake the driver. The slightest of wheel inputs will decide on which side it wants to overtake its driver and that's just huge lift off oversteer. The early McLaren M8A had a ladder frame chassis but switched to Aluminium monocoque to keep up with the Lola (Howston).
There is a guy here in RD called @Matej Lakota I dont want to embarras him but he is a maestro in the Howston. If he has a hot lap to share you will not say its undriveable. It needs a lot of skill. Some of the earlier ones are easier without the mega horsepower.

But like Freddy said above, they dont suit a pad IMO as you get no feel for what its going to do.
Just my thoughts that's all.

 

[Matej Lakota]

Thanks David, I have one video from our Belgium 1966 race and I think, that was qualy lap, but I am not sure . I really love that car .

 

[John Peat]

I have to say it - if a game NEEDS a wheel to drive it, it's going to struggle to sell enough copies to make it viable in the current market - that's not conducive with the game being developed properly...

Fortunately, I don't think the controller is the problem - the config works well, I just don't believe the big-end of a tonne of car would slide as much at lower speeds as the Howston does. I fully expect finding traction to be an issue - I expect it to squirm and fight and need skill to direct-it but I don't expect it to do 4 wheel understeer slides at 30mph like it's running on ice and I need an AI who can drive it too!!

The Skippy in iRacing is a brilliant training car and a sweet drive. Here it's a challenging, moody and relatively slow car. That's like putting a 911 into your game and making it wheezy and understeery ;0

I think part of my problem was getting heat into the tyres (the Skippy is also locked to treaded tyres??) and another part is the 'rubbering in' aspect of the 'real road' system. I suspect these start-out a bit OTT so you notice their effect - but not everyone wants to run 20 laps just to get things working - is there an 'optimal track' option somewhere? I didnt' find one...

Remember - you want MORE people playing the game because that means more development being done. No use being elitist and demanding players have a few hundred-bucks of kit and throw in a tonne of time to "find the fun".

Well, unless you like the tumbleweeds already blowing through the game...

 

[John Peat]

After a proper FFB setup I can manage Houston better than before, but what irks me is that under braking the rear starts "automatically" turning into corners regardless of wheel input. This is not a brake balance issue, but something like steering help option, where the rear "knows" if I'm going to turn left or right, before I actually do it. This results in very little steering needed into corners, but I'm pretty sure Lola T-70 didn't behave like this.

It's a daft question but you did disable "Opposite Lock" in the aids? That auto-corrects oversteer for you - if you then try to do it, cars have a tendency to spear-off.

It's not clear what that options is for - some people might think it means you WANT Oversteer??

 

[Jason Hunt]

Skippy tyres can be changed to 'national' in the car selection screen.

They are a lot more gippier.