PC1 why is the pCARS forum buried?

[Damage Inc]

Took me a while to find this forum. Was wondering why it's tucked away amongst "old" sims when it's very much a "future" sim?

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

And why can't people have opinions without being called haters or fanboys? I completely agree with the crowd saying pcars is a SIMcade and nowhere near AC in terms of physics and FFB (it's been a while since I've tested it now though so I'll gladly boot it up again this weekend and post here if it proves me wrong, but I highly doubt it).
I WANT pCars to be good, I've PAID for pCars, why would i NOT hope for it to be good?
But if I utter as much as a word saying I don't like how it's turning out and that I think it has too arcadeish physics and FFB I am immideately labeled as a hater?

If anything looks to be a human condition thing then it is the fact that there are lots of individuals in this community that can't accept the fact that other peoples opinions are worth equally much as their own. Just because you like a game does not make it a fact, and everyone who dislikes it wrong. If you like pCars, all the power to you, go enjoy it and love it, no need to bash on the community and it's members for not agreeing with you.

 

[Damage Inc]

Kjell, the problem is that thanks to the wonders of the internet and anonymity there's no politeness. There was a term created for web behaviour "netiquette", and sadly it seems to be none existent. There is nothing wrong with criticising pCARS, I've done and i will continue to do so in areas I feel are lacking. Many other members criticise. The thing is many (especially here) are under the delusion that no criticism is allowed at WMD and I find this perplexing. If you are polite and structure the criticism in a constructive manner then there will be no problems with it. Thing is....many are downright rude, disrespectful and uncouth. It is those kinds of people that get into trouble on WMD and then seem to flood here and have a moan.

so do you understand, we don't attack the criticism as such, more the wording. And simcade is such an awful term, I only use it for things like Forza and GT, games that have sim elements but the structure of the racing is pure arcade. pCARS is actually trying to simulate a lot of things to a high level of realism, that fact it may or may not be as good as Assetto in the physics does not qualify it as Simcade, it's a bit like saying the team that finished 3rd-4th in a competition is a complete amateur. It's still a high level of competance, just not at the pinnacle. Using Simcade for one title belittles every game in the PC genre.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

As you I use the term simcade for titles like Forza and GranTurismo, and I lump pCars in the exact same category. Racing games that go that extra step further towards proper simulation, especially in terms of graphics, but simplify the physics/handling to cater for a broader audience and people using non-FFB controllers.

I know only what I feel when I drive pCars, and that is next to nothing, no feeling of weight transfer, no feeling of traction or loss of traction, no feeling of uneven tracksurface, too forgiving physics that allows me to wrestle a formula car over a high curb doing 200+ km/h in a 90 degree corner without as much as unsetteling the car (yes I'm exaggerating to make a point). I will test it again this weekend as mentioned, because I do want it to improve and become a proper sim, but I'm not holding my breath because I kept trying build after build for over half a year and nothing ever improved on the mentioned parts and I honestly don't think it ever will. I think SMS will do as they did with the Shift series, market this as a sim with "bleeding edge physics engine" while still driving like either a piece of dung (Shift 2) or a pretty good racing game (pCars atm), but not a proper sim.

Edit: Btw, if the term simcade leaves such a bad taste in your mouth, why do you use it for Forza and GT? Both are really good games imo. I see a lot of people over at the AC parts of these forums bashing on AC for not being a proper sim, for being too easy or questioning it's physics, know what? I don't care, if they don't like it then it's their problem, I love it and their opinion won't sway mine.

 

[TherealWalkman]

Its odd that you talk about simcade because I was banned 2 days ago for rephrasing the term "hardcore simulation" into "simcade" over at Wikipedia. I still don´t get their fuzz. I think it was because I was the only one that didn´t altered his IP adress (what I think is lame). They really seem to hate the tern simcade although the magazines are full of comparisons between PCARS and other simcade titles. Oh, and I stated that the steering still has traces of "floaty" steering. They attacked me especially about that although I didn´t introduced the word floaty in the first place. I just deleted the "no" that stood in front of "traces of floaty steering".

No hard feelings but It seems sad, that they think thats how business is done. Dish out legal threads against forums, mute critics, ban them and misuse Wikipedia for advertising.
Got my 45 € back though.

 

[Damage Inc]

I thought I explained my use of simcade for Forza and GT? I'll expand on it. Basically physics wise all these games are sims, they attempt (to various degrees of success) to simulate the handling of a real car, the level of that success doesn't warrant the connection with arcade games..like Outrun and Ridge Racer etc....those games that make no effort whatsoever to properly simulate reality and in fact go to the other extreme by allowing things that are unrealistic on purpose (the key thing here is on purpose if someone find a physics flaw in a sim, doesn't mean the entire game is arcade, it's just a flaw/error).

Where Forza and GT qualify for the "cade" part of "simcade" for me is the structure of the racing. Neither game makes much effort in simulating a race weekend. No practise, no qualifying, and the worst evil of all GTs single file rolling starts.

A game which is attempting to properly simulate a car, and simulate a proper motorsport race weekend format is not "simcade", there is no "arcade" element at all. Sim A will have better phsyics than Sim B, but that doesn't make Sim B an arcade game, BOTH are sims.

I too really like Forza and GT, but since discovering GTR2 those games disappoint me on a yearly basis, Forza is still an ok blast...but the GT series died with 5 for me and 6 continues the trend.

I'm happy that pCARS and Assetto are making the games more pad friendly (and on consoles in pCARS case) to try and get the masses to at least consider proper sims and not be content with 1/2 the deal with Forza and GT. Making a game pad/keyboard friendly has nothing whatsoever to do with how sim or not a game is, to use that as an argument for "simcade" is facile.

Hope that all makes sense!!

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

Well there's no set definition of the term sadly, and I think mine differs from yours slightly, as will you find even more definitions among other people here on the boards.
To me Dirt and F1 series are arcade games, GT and Forza are simcade and "deserve" this Sim part because they approach real simulation in their physics.
How they present the content is of little to no interest to me, I don't play singleplayer so it's moot to me. Yes I like more features in my multiplayer like rain, day/night time cycles, dynamic track with rubber/temps etc, but none of these features are what defines a sim from a arcade to me, it's ALL down to how they approach handling.
Forza, GT and pCars all seem to have the same approach towards handling and physics to me, more realistic than arcade but still trying to keep it approachable by gamers who don't want to spend 50+ laps on a track just to learn it before they go out and win races.

Edit: to put it really simple:
Arcarde: Focus is 100% on having FUN!
Sim: Focus is 100% on simulating the reality as closely as possible
Simcade: Focus is divided between the two, trying to get as real as possible while still keeping the fun factor of arcade racing.

 

[Damage Inc]

Its odd that you talk about simcade because I was banned 2 days ago for rephrasing the term "hardcore simulation" into "simcade" over at Wikipedia. I still don´t get their fuzz. I think it was because I was the only one that didn´t altered his IP adress (what I think is lame). They really seem to hate the tern simcade although the magazines are full of comparisons between PCARS and other simcade titles. Oh, and I stated that the steering still has traces of "floaty" steering. They attacked me especially about that although I didn´t introduced the word floaty in the first place. I just deleted the "no" that stood in front of "traces of floaty steering".

No hard feelings but It seems sad, that they think thats how business is done. Dish out legal threads against forums, mute critics, ban them and misuse Wikipedia for advertising.
Got my 45 € back though.

Basically "simcade" is a dismissive comment for a PC sim, it's snidey and crafty and veils itself in a paper thin veneer of respectability so people using it inappropriately can just shrug their shoulders as if they are victims of something nasty and go "why am I being banned"??

So just because a magazine compares it to another title means that it is identical?? It just means that the game (as has been said) is trying to reach out to different levels of users.

I mean to edit a wikipedia page.......just so..........laughable really.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

Basically "simcade" is a dismissive comment for a PC sim, it's snidey and crafty and veils itself in a paper thin veneer of respectability so people using it inappropriately can just shrug their shoulders as if they are victims of something nasty and go "why am I being banned"??

So just because a magazine compares it to another title means that it is identical?? It just means that the game (as has been said) is trying to reach out to different levels of users.

I mean to edit a wikipedia page.......just so..........laughable really.

According to who is it a dismissive comment? I can't relate to the way you describe it at all.
It's like trying to tell us to not call it Heavy Metal because it's dismissive to the genre Metal. People felt there was a need for a term to describe a new type of racing game that has emerged, something that bridges the gap between sim and arcade, that's my take on the term, not something negative at all.

 

[Damage Inc]

Well there's no set definition of the term sadly, and I think mine differs from yours slightly, as will you find even more definitions among other people here on the boards.
To me Dirt and F1 series are arcade games, GT and Forza are simcade and "deserve" this Sim part because they approach real simulation in their physics.
How they present the content is of little to no interest to me, I don't play singleplayer so it's moot to me. Yes I like more features in my multiplayer like rain, day/night time cycles, dynamic track with rubber/temps etc, but none of these features are what defines a sim from a arcade to me, it's ALL down to how they approach handling.
Forza, GT and pCars all seem to have the same approach towards handling and physics to me, more realistic than arcade but still trying to keep it approachable by gamers who don't want to spend 50+ laps on a track just to learn it before they go out and win races.

I never Bother with Dirt or F1 games (codemasters I presume).

ok and SMS is attempting to simulate reality with pCARS, there are no "arcade" like elements where they are purposely bending or breaking the laws of phsyics. The fact that the handling may not appeal to some people or has flaws does not qualify it for any connection to the "simcade" tag.

"approachable" now that's a very interesting term to use and probably the key in the simcade argument. Many "hardcore" simmers want the cars to be extremely hard to drive "unapraochable" if you will. I think that is the key thing for the Simcade, if the car grips too much then it is "simcade". But most info I read is that games like that are (ironically) the ones being unrealistic!!

 

[Damage Inc]

According to who is it a dismissive comment? I can't relate to the way you describe it at all.
It's like trying to tell us to not call it Heavy Metal because it's dismissive to the genre Metal. People felt there was a need for a term to describe a new type of racing game that has emerged, something that bridges the gap between sim and arcade, that's my take on the term, not something negative at all.

But using a term inappropriately is often dismissive....to expand on your music analogy:

a Death Metal fan calls Metallica a "pop punk" band because they dislike Metallica. Now pop punk is an established music genre, but many Metallica fans would be offended by the term being used in conjunction with Metallica and the usage of the term would be wrong. So basically the Death Metal fan is using an established term which in and of itself is not a negative term to be dismissive towards another band.

That is how many people perceive "simcade" being used in conjunction with pCARS. But seeing as there is very little netiquette anymore it will continue to be used and I will continue to call it into question.

 

[Damage Inc]

Edit: to put it really simple:
Arcarde: Focus is 100% on having FUN!
Sim: Focus is 100% on simulating the reality as closely as possible
Simcade: Focus is divided between the two, trying to get as real as possible while still keeping the fun factor of arcade racing.

But people find real racing FUN!! So are you saying REALITY is SIMCADE?!!!

"Fun" is irrelevant to the term.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

People who do racing find racing to be a lot of work, a lot of practice. Let's be honest here, the majority of "simracers" in here would stand no chance in a real car on a real track against proper opponents because we lack something VERY important.... practice... years and years of hard work and practice. Arcade games are trying to make you feel like a driving god with little to no need for training, by simplifying the physics/controls and being very approachable.
Sims take longer to learn, yes you need to PRACTICE to be fast in a sim, that does not mean it has to be overly difficult, but it's actually more like real life than any arcade game.
To me a simcade is somewhere between, trying to approach simulation but still keep it easy to learn and have fun, this is exactly where I find pCars atm.

 

[Terry Rock]

Christ! Not this again....
I figured I stop in here to see what, if anything had changed.
I guess not.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

I'm done at least ^^

 

[TherealWalkman]

I mean to edit a wikipedia page.......just so..........laughable really.

<<snip>>
Wikipedia is an open platform not meant to support assumptions or advertisement. Therefore I have all the right to recorrect what I see as outright wrong, that I did. The only thing wrong was that I contributed to this opinionladen text by not introducing quotes. But if you look at the editing history it was already untenable.

As Kjell perfectly stated "Simcade" is a term that was coined for the new generations of racing games that want to combine the worlds of simulation and arcade. So if you aim for the mass market with console ports you have to make compromises.

on a sidenote. The reason for my ban was: "no reason". .

 

[Damage Inc]

You really are a selfrighteous fxxxxy, are you? Wikipedia is an open platform not meant to support assumptions or advertisement. Therefore I have all the right to recorrect what I see as outright wrong, that I did. The only thing wrong was that I contributed to this opinionladen text by not introducing quotes. But if you look at the editing history it was already untenable.

As Kjell perfectly stated "Simcade" is a term that was coined for the new generations of racing games that want to combine the worlds of simulation and arcade. So if you aim for the mass market with console ports you have to make compromises.

on a sidenote. The reason for my ban was: "no reason". .

nice insult there, yes Wikipedia is open, but open to FACTS not opinion, and yours was an opinion.

Say someone edited the moon's wikipedia page to say it was in fact made of cheese and in the deluded mind of this individual it was in fact made of cheese and they were completely convinced it was made of cheese....doesn't make it fact though. And seriously editing a wikipedia page because you're angry about a game, that's not good.

My final take on it is this:
"Approachable, accessible, fun" are not exclusive elements of arcade.

Modern race cars are not hard to drive fast, just hard to drive VERY fast. And No sim fully simulates every aspect of reality.

 

[Damage Inc]

People who do racing find racing to be a lot of work, a lot of practice. Let's be honest here, the majority of "simracers" in here would stand no chance in a real car on a real track against proper opponents because we lack something VERY important.... practice... years and years of hard work and practice. Arcade games are trying to make you feel like a driving god with little to no need for training, by simplifying the physics/controls and being very approachable.
Sims take longer to learn, yes you need to PRACTICE to be fast in a sim, that does not mean it has to be overly difficult, but it's actually more like real life than any arcade game.
To me a simcade is somewhere between, trying to approach simulation but still keep it easy to learn and have fun, this is exactly where I find pCars atm.

I would hazard a small guess that one of the main defining differences between real racing and sim racing is the fear factor of actually being able to hurt yourself badly and possibly die. That is where the practise comes in, and that is where all sims (no matter how high the sims pedestal is) fail. There is no real repercussion for pushing the limits and going over.

so in essence all current sims are simcade. Every single one.

 

[Damage Inc]

After a nice meal I thought of a few more things to really round things off for me (I hope....and no doubt everyone else does too!).

If someone with minimal prior practise (just strong innate skill) does well in iRacing, without a lot of practise, then IRacing is simcade. (because if a game let's you go fast too early it's arcade)

And that iRacing doesn't simulate some things to a real level.

So I can go on the iRacing wikipedia site and change all references to "simulation" to "simcade".

I shouldn't expect some here to mind if I did that?

(not picking on iRacing per se, it's just the defacto top sim in a lot of eyes)

If someone needs to practise a lot to get fast in pCARS it's sim?

hmmmm I'm being quite facile there.

 

[Damage Inc]

Christ! Not this again....
I figured I stop in here to see what, if anything had changed.
I guess not.

wait? oh sorry I didn't realise that someone new coming to a site isn't allowed an opinion on previously discussed topics, I do apologise.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

As I've said literally hundreds of times, one "should" judge a sim vs simcade game on the quality of it's physics and FFB, and this is where traditional PC sims have the edge by a significant margin.

I've got a whole bunch of PC sims loaded, and Pcars doesn't compare wrt physics and especially FFB....that said, last build, pcars did operate well with my wheel, but it lacked the quality of FFB to make it enjoyable or convincing as a proper sim.