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What's the most important part of a driving game?

Discussion in 'F1 2010 - The Game' started by forthright, Sep 23, 2010.

  1. If your answer would always be "the driving" then I hate to say it but you should probably buy something else.

    Initial impressions...

    No feedback from the car, no feeling of driving a car, no loss of traction, no oversteer, no locking brakes and no sense of what the car is doing. That's because the car isn't doing anything, just going around on rails. It might as well not be a car - just a floating camera that you control left and right with the wheel.

    Obviously all aids are turned off yes, but you'd really think they weren't. You can only change these settings while on track (by pressing ESC) - you don't seem to be able to change them from the main menus.

    The main problem with the game is that once again (like Grid and other Codemasters games before it) you don't feel as though you're driving a car - it simply doesn't feel like something with 4 wheels connected to the track, it just feels like you're steering a first person shooter around a track with a steering wheel. Maybe that's a slight exaggeration but it's not far off - I drive in real life, and games like GTR2 and rFactor give me the feeling of driving a car due to the characteristics and behaviour on track. In F1 2010 it doesn't feel like a car - it doesn't feel like anything. The force feedback is also completely lacking - apart from vibrating over the curbs it doesn't give you any sense of what the car is doing (I'm using the G25 wheel and pedals).

    I don't know... maybe to some people it won't feel this bad. I've read lots of mixed comments on forums whilst waiting for the game - some said it wasn't great but there were also comments from sim racers who said it wasn't too bad, comparing it to an rFactor F1 mod but with slightly more grip. In my opinion that is an insult to rFactor. This thing feels nothing like it.

    There are some bugs (apparently). Pit control is very messy and limited, and the engine seems to jump to the rev limit too fast while driving, and there is a bug where you have to change the sound setting to 'software' mode (instead of 'Rapture') otherwise you get lag when shifting gears. To be honest though none of these bugs matter - the driving is the most important part of any racing game and the handling in F1 2010 is simply not right at all. I didn't like NFS Shift very much due to it's slightly lacking physics but it's a much better driving game than F1 2010.

    As a test I tried some car setup adjustments - I chose the HRT (should be a handful?), then I put minimum rear wing and max front wing, harder rear springs and ARB - I did everything I could to create an oversteering mess, but when I got onto the track I could barely tell the difference. I still couldn't spin the car with full throttle on the exit of tight 2nd gear corners. I tried the same thing in the rain and although you can spin in the rain it is still very easy to drive (far too much grip) and you have to be stupidly aggressive with the throttle and steering to get it to happen.

    I hate to say these things because I really wanted this game to be good - not for it to be a sim but simply to be fun to drive. Unfortunately driving it is just making me angry - knowing how much better it should have been... how much better they said it was going to be.

    I can't see myself ever playing it again. Yes there were realism mods to improve the physics in Shift but this game feels so 'wrong' to start with I really don't think they could fix it. I'm starting to believe Codemasters just haven't got a clue about creating a good phyisics model for a driving game. It's easy to turn a full blown sim into a forgiving and fun to play driving game just by putting in some driving aids, so surely if they had the talent that's what they would do - develop a great physics engine and then create lots of aids for those who want it to be easier (it would still feel like a car!). What they've done here is create a total mess of a physics engine and then added pointless aids and car setup options to make people think there's more going on underneath.

    I feel gutted and angry that I wasted £30 on this game, but more than anything I just feel sad. I feel sad when I think back to some of the things the developers said leading up to the release of this game, and also the statements from Anthony Davidson. They really sold it to me... I guess they got what they wanted.
  2. Bram

    Roaring Pipes Maniacs | #27 Staff Member Premium Member

    Do you drive with all aids off? Try running a low downforce setup on Monza and try to beat the posted 1:18. You still think it drives on rails? :)

    Reading all this nonsense yesterday and today makes me wonder if I have been playing another game last night lol

    And to answer the title of this thread. As with any game the most important is the fun factor. No fun, no play for me. It's a game.

    If I want a real race car experience I go rob a bank and buy me a nice Corvette C6.R with some mechanics and race GT's the rest of my life :)
  3. The aids are definitely off yes, although i haven't tried Monza yet. I might give that a go.
  4. Although I'm still pretty n00bish when it comes to racing sims, I think I can generally substantiate the complaints stated in the OP. In this game, I can't tell when I'm spinning my wheels. I don't think there is a car in the world where you feel uncertain about whether or not you're spinning wheels at any given point in time. I would guess the issue about hitting the rev limiter too early is likely related to this one. Perhaps if, in time, a tire squeal/FFB traction loss sensation patch becomes available we'll be in a better position to judge the overall dyanimcs of the car. I do agree it's hard to spin the car out, but I have done so accidentally a few times (but I'm also a terrible driver).
  5. Not a driving sim at all IMO, feels nothing like the brilliant FVA F1 car, and it's a PITA to know what the best steering settings are.
    MP also sux hard as well....can't ever join GP's, and no practice, 3 lap races with Germans constantly muttering something over their mics, LOL.
    Not a great game, not worthy of 9/10 BS that many of the game reviewers give it.
    IMO, u should wait till it drops in price.
  6. They need to fool and appease sim players, hoping we'll buy it, so they talk this crap about 80% sim, hahahahaha
  7. Feeling (aka ffb) ,without it nothing else matters,
    to get good ffb the physic engine has to work properly to be able to feed the ffb,(not canned effects)
    Then you can get into fun, arcade and sim aspects of the racing for a wide range of customers.
  8. It´s not good physics and not a sim at all.

    Bram cracks me up every time by defending it into a sim :p (nothing personally against you).
    Let´s say it this way: It´s obviously this is not a sim at all, because sims are to hard to drive for the customers, CM want´s to sell the game to. But as mentioned from someone above, it would be possible to have a sim engine with lots of aids to also solve the "arcade-fans"´ses needs.
    Calling this a 80% sim is really making me angry. Becaus as also mentioned, it "tricked" us simracers into buying that game and giving it a try. So this is big time shame.
    Just stop lifting this into a sim, people...please. That´s hillariouse to say.
  9. I have to admit saying that I find this game is fun anyways.
    I mean..it has great graphics and it´s cool to play when your friends are around who are no simracers. I mean have you ever tried to play rFactor FSR Mod with a friend who has no experience in simracing? It´s hopeless of course. Even with driving aids. So for having a good time and having fun, this game is cool.
  10. Bram

    Roaring Pipes Maniacs | #27 Staff Member Premium Member

    Where do you see me defending this as a sim? I hate the word sim :) It's an elitist name for something that is not real. No sim to date simulates reality or comes even close to it.

    Imo currents sims are way too hard to drive. Its more a skill level than a simulation level if you ask me.

    What F1 2010 does simulate:
    - fantastic tracks
    - fantastic models
    - f1 life
    - etc

    Apart from that the cars seem pretty balanced compared to real life F1 times, which makes it more real than any other rfactor or evo mod.

    My biggest critisism on those two games are/were and ever will be:
    - weird second (or third) slip that you cannot control (rfactor and gtr) which never happens in a real race car
    - cars have no grip at all and feels like they drive on ice (rfactor)

    This doesnt mean i don't enjoy those games, on the contrary i do, but for me they are not real or come even close to real.

    F1 2010 does what it sells: gives you the feeling of being a F1 driver! So yes its a sim (simulates reality)
  11. as said many times, driving real car is much easier then driving ingame car... so then this F1 arcade physic would be even more realistic than for example FSONE 09 ;) (just watch on board cams of real F1 drivers how are they turning under full throttle)

    even though this could be the most arcadeg game, fun is the most important thing
  12. I've always understood that when referring to a sim, one primarily considers the car/driving phyx.
    By that criteria, F1 2010 is a very poor sim....in fact, I don't think I've encountered any oversteer yet, LOL.
    Simbin games for example have oversteer that can be dialed in or out to some degree, it also has lift off oversteer on the open wheelers running low rear wing values.

    Simbin cars do many if not all of the things that one's own car does, and what one witnesses race cars do, as such, Simbin games like Race07/GTR Evo are very sim like and also have excellent FFB, including simulated brake feedback via the steering wheel.

    F1 2010 has modest FFB, no brake FFB, doesn't simulate the stress effects of racing very well, and seems to have uncanny grip at times, all typical of a more arcade focused racing game.
  13. fun-factor is the most important, but let me explain how people's fun is achieved different ways.

    As a person who has played driving games all the way back to the Atari 2600, C64, and 1980's IBM, the fun in the driving game that I am looking for is the immersion, to get wrapped up in the game.

    Everyone is immersed in their own way, because we are mostly all individuals. To many, immersion is mostly visual.... they like the liveries, the pretty trees on the tracks, the weather effects, the changing daylight, the track changing from damp to dry, and all of this moving very fast.

    Codemasters have mostly succeeded on these points, and brought us to a very nice visual world. And that brings me to the problem with this game.... to sum it up: in this realistic looking world, things happen unrealistically, and it's distracting

    To me, and many like me, the immersion comes through the feeling of the driving far more than the visual aspects, and I believe this area is where the SIM VS ARCADE point is being discussed. It doesn't matter to me how sophisticated they tell me the game is, or how perfect the visual representation is... if it feels like I'm paddling a turd in a punchbowl instead of piloting an F1 car, then I'm not going to be immersed, and I can't have fun.

    I'll give a good example of this... For Race 07 (and I believe it's the same on rFactor), there is a user-created track for Singapore 08. Now, I'm about to trash this Marina Bay representation pretty hard, but I truly do respect the work of its creator for two reasons: 1) I couldn't do better, 2) I've had a ton of fun using the track. For anyone that knows the track I speak of, you know it's only a vague representation of the actual Marina Bay circuit. its so unrealistic that even the laptimes are 15% faster than on the real track.

    So, how could this blatant misrepresentation of reality prove to be more realistic to me than racing Marina Bay in all its glory on F1 2010?

    When I drive the user-created MMG f107 and user-created Singapore 08 track, despite their shortcomings, I feel like I am driving. I have that sensation. I can search for the limits, I can find the limits, and I can try to push those limits to the very edge. I can feel so much of what the car is telling me, like the locked front tire while trying to trail brake into the apex, telling me to release the brake pedal just a little bit more. I can feel the oversteer as I apply the wrong amount of throttle on the exit of a corner and immediately respond with my foot or try to steer out of it. I can feel the car become unstable over the kerbs, or over bumps in the track, or as I transfer the car's weight too fast with abrupt steering, throttle, or brake input. I can sense the car's protests, I can make split second decisions and react to them, and when I start lapping very fast, it gets very intense, sometimes mentally and emotionally exhausting. Now I am fully immersed in a simulated driver's challenge.

    For me, when I drive f1 2010 I am constantly reminded that I'm only playing a video game... the driving experience is completely unorganic, completely devoid of logic and emotion, and I simply can't immerse myself because it's so incredibly distracting.

    EDIT: I'm sitting here watching FP1 at Singapore 2010... watching how the drivers are struggling with the partially dry track on intermediates, sliding and drifting in the corners, searching for the limits of balance between lateral and longitudinal grip.... This is nothing like F1 2010 the game, and as far as what I am looking for, the game is a complete failure.
  14. I like the driving in a sim, a car has to be challenging but not ruthless, with enough control and balance that its fun to drive, the force feedback plays a big part in that. F1 2010 lacks as the force feedback doesnt do anything other than provide heavy steering and rumbles over the rumble strips, so you can't really feel the car, that spoiled it for me more than anything. First thing about a racing game is that the car has to feel engaging, the driving experience has to be... experienced. F1 2010 would make a good game with a gamepad, but as a title for a sim racer, who is looking for the driving experience with a wheel.. more than the rest of the package, then i think it falls short.

    Just to use an non-elitist example, I really like Dirt 2 with a wheel, its not hard to play but its engaging, the force feedback is pretty good and its reactive in a way that a car should be, you can feel the tires lose grip over the dirt as you drive, and the weight transfer as you turn in different ways. No it isnt realistic, but it gives me the sensation of racing, i think that much is missing in F1 2010, its probably something they could fix with some work on a patch, but they arent the type of company to do so.

    Im using a G27 with it.