What i think is not right with RRes physics?!

[Msportdan]

FINAL UPDATE!
hhhhmmmmmmm so i gave the DTMs on RF2 a try last night and just fell for them, so nice to drive feels natural nice FFB and weight in wheel.

Go ahead and i put RRe and it just feels wrong, (even with my new settings) the middle of the wheel feel loose/light and has no ffb. Its horrid.. Unless you have the wheel turned its just poor. Only way i can really cure this is turn up steering force, then i start getting the "auto" bloody straighten wheel assist or whatever it is. (possibly too much forcing the other way)

I have come to the conclusion (as apart from buying a new wheel) that this is a great game etc, but when played with another sim with better physics, you can notice it so much more. Its to a point its off putting.

Maybe a possibility of a minumum force setting? Well since not one dev has commented on it it must just be me, or im being ignored, it doesnt really matter as so many people think the FFB are bang on "ppffft" lol.

So for me there is STILL something that isnt quite right about RRe physics etc.... and until S3 fix this (floaty around the centre feel) ill stand by my OP, because ive given up searching for the "sweet spot"!
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ORIGINAL POST
I tried something on the way home in my car (f20 125i msport bmw rwd). Ive never really would say I practice sim driving on the road. I tried swerving left and right really quickly. Which is something ive been comparing in the sims im playing. I know this sounds silly, but I remember someone saying how good a set of physics are by, aggressively going left and right and see if the tyres slip (bite and slip ) as you get faster and more intense.

To my surprise (okay I wasn't do track speeds but its all relative) my cars was quite sharp on its front end, they front tyres felt connected to the road and there wasn't much roll in the car. (probs due to the msport suspension) only as I got faster did the tyres start to slip, but that is also 220bhp through the rear.

Anyway I got in and tried the Wttc bmw, which is a tad similar okay no where near but you know what I mean. To my dismay the race spec car felt horrid, it felt squishy on it front suspension felt quite numb up front, and felt like this was the road car.!! When you do the motion I was doing In my car you get a sort of a sway going, like a pendulum effect. THIS IS WHATS KILLING RRE FOR ME. many a times ive popped out of a slipstream and ive had this awrkward sway feeling. Sorry it feels wrong, You don't feel like your connected to the road the suspension doesn't feel responsive and confidence isn't gained this way.

So I tried another sim that im getting back into at the mo (excusing its dire AI) and that's AC. I popped into the BMW m3 (another similar car) and tried the old swerve down the Monza straight ... and there it was that felt like my car.. and it did. it felt responsive tyres dug and bit like a tyre under load, I could feel the suspension doing its work....and I wont lie it felt like I was driving my car, just a bit more of an expensive version lol.

obviously in both sims and in real life if I kept the throttle and swerving up I would end up in heading the other way. But in RRE its that transition between getting into the slide, and the feeling of that bite. The feeling of the front end on cars and suspension, just isn't felt imo in RRe. Okay setups could help, but it feels to far deep to fix purely by setups.

Look im not here to bash, its purely critism, that I think S3, if they wanted to could sort out and make this shine. You guys know im a backer of RRe..

 

[Msportdan]

this video highlights at 0.25 and 0:39 exactly what im talking about. At 1:24 the effect is through the sweeping corner. Gives a swaying/boat feel.

no matter what i do i, cant dial this anomaly out.

 

[Andi Goodwin]

thats not bad physics
0.25 touches curb , gets slight wheelspin + weight pushed to right side
0.39 again runs out onto curb +weight transfer
at 1:24 realising that hes about to run out wide/is to hot/wrong entry / lets off/powers on the throttle to reset the car in corner

sorry but with the greatest respect ....... nah ...no No no ... your again comparing two sims ....imho this is the surest way to scramble your brain

having the car shift under loading /curbs power on and off isnt something broke

Andi

 

[JayJayRaceinho]

reminds me of the old shift2 behavior ... watching real-onboard cams of gt3 cars (or any sport racing car) i never see such a floaty behavior. on a road car i could imagine this effect happening with lowbudget springs/suspesions.

 

[Msportdan]

thanks a unbiast answer, it clearly looks odd, some people should take off their rose tinted glasses lol

for your info he's no where near the kerbs. lol Maybe on second example he craps them, but fact still remains the cars says on straight up. Playing other sims highlights this oddity more, maybe you should play something else andi?

 

[Connor Caple]

I understand what Andi is saying and don't see a problem. I have no idea if on-board GT cams pick something like that up because normally the damned things are shaking all over the place as the car is racing and I doubt I ever watched them to look for one minor shake or wobble among the myriad others.

 

[Jyri Kettunen]

for your info he's no where near the kerbs. lol

Clearly he's on the kerbs twice. Don't let the camera angle fool you.

 

[Msportdan]

maybe slightly but still doesnt exmplain the sway which you get even no where near kerbs!

at the 3rd examply theres no kerbs in sight and its swaying like anything !

 

[Connor Caple]

I can see a slight jolt at 1:24 which looks like a downshift that wasn't blipped, but I'm having trouble seeing this 'sway'.

 

[Msportdan]

i give up, its clearly there... rollocks its downshift!

 

[Jyri Kettunen]

I guess your mind is swaying...

 

[Le_Poilu]

this video highlights at 0.25 and 0:39 exactly what im talking about. At 1:24 the effect is through the sweeping corner. Gives a swaying/boat feel.

no matter what i do i, cant dial this anomaly out.

You're joking or what ?

There's absolutely nothing wrong, and nothing about a swaying/boat feeling.
It's a racing car, drived at the edge, it's not a spaceship that should go straight on a clean line.

If you see a anomaly here, maybe should you consider something else than simracing ...

 

[Msportdan]

DELETED AS INAPPROPRIATE BY DAN

 

[Le_Poilu]

Glad for you...

 

[Jyri Kettunen]

...and he picks up the ball and goes home.

 

[whaletail]

Yes and Sebastien Loeb like Gran Turismo, Stephane Sarrazin and Franck Montagny (former Peugeot 908 drivers) feel Forza Motorsport like real... etc etc etc

Real driver stars quotes are hard to take while they are sponsored ...

I think celebrity driver "box-cover" quotes need to be taken with a grain of salt. Such quotes are always paid, and no different from other paid celebrity endorsements.

The ADAC GT driver comments Andi references were likely taken from an interview, and may have even been spontaneous, which lends them some credibility. They're also reasonable, given developer struggles over driving difficulty vs. realism etc. While spontaneous quotes shouldn't be taken as the last word on the matter (after all, they represent but a single opinion, no matter how earnest and genuine the comment), I certainly pay them more mind than Sebastian Vettel's Playseat endorsement, for example.

Regarding difficulty vs. reality, I personally prefer a more forgiving driving model. I'm not quick, have a hell of a time avoiding brake lockups (I set brake sensitivity for my HPPs at 35-40%, even though the setting is apparently for potentiometer based pedals), and spin the car 360 degrees coming out of the first Hockenheim hairpin at least once every 5 laps, so I'll gladly enjoy whatever concessions a developer chooses to extend.

Arguments that more forgiving driving models and realism are inversely proportional, however, don't make much sense. From everything I've ever heard, read or felt, it simply isn't absurdly difficult to drive most cars, race or otherwise, at 7/10ths. Perhaps even faster. It is only when you approach the limit that well balanced cars begin to require real driver skill, and the laptime delta between safely under the limit, and at the raw edge is less than most would suspect.

Remove G-forces from the equation, and discussions of realism are useless, as reality can't be experienced without them. Not even Carroll Smith can comment about how driving a racecar feels without G-forces, simply because it is physically impossible. Developers know this, and the good ones understand what we ACTUALLY ENJOY (despite what some may claim to want), and waste little time how worrying about realism in the way it is usually discussed.

G-forces can't be neatly excised from the driving experience, no matter how much math is employed, and visual/audio information will never compensate for the absent sensations. Thankfully, none of that diminishes my sim racing enjoyment.

Henk

 

[Rella]

For me it looks quite realistic when watching the first 20 secs of this onboard video

Instead I have this boat feeling in another current sim but maybe Iam too used to R3E now. Playing with the multiplier for the view and the seatposition should help to eliminate the boat feeling what you certainly already did. And driving on your own with proper FFB etc. is again a very different feeling of immersion

 

[Andi Goodwin]

wow , so finally we get to name calling and finger pointing ; and we were all so well behaved ... ; anyway ;

do i play other sims ... yes when time allows ... up until early this year was racing in league events ; rf1/rf2/gsc ... occasional PnG /GTL/GTR²and offline nascar 2003(modded) NKP; also occasionally play iracing

What i see is the car doing occasionally weight transfer ; the weight shifting side to side , maybe this aspect is more pronounced in r3e but its definately not wrong/broken/boating ...

Anyway opinions are opinions , and everyone is entitled to express them selves , but

big but

huge but

dont make it personal; dont use the fanboy word and even if you are driving every sim on the planet it doesnt make your opinion correct !!


love;peace chocolate frogs and bliss

Andi

 

[SnappyDEe]

Hello all,
I don't get the "boat feeling" but I find that description interesting because, although I am loving all the new updates to R3E, I was getting a.... shall I say, strange disconnected feeling on turn in. It was making it so I was always turning in too much. Like there was a weak steering feel at the center but only for the first 10 degrees or so. Once I would turn in I would invariably have to correct but by then some other FFB affects had kicked in and I was way over correcting and having to turn in again. All this was very subtle and, to make matters worse, was different in just about every corner.
However, I persisted, and read very closely what settings were being recommended in the "Wheel Settings" thread. I want to say thanks to the posting of that thread and the thread that contains the explanations of all the various settings. It has helped immensely and R3E is now my latest obsession SIM. It feels, sounds (the best sounds ever, hands down) and looks awesome. The content is great and I'm very excited about what they (S3) have announced will be coming soon.
I was still getting that weak center spring\awkward turn in feeling and i can't help but think it is the same "thing" that Msportdan is experiencing. I feel that way because even as I exited corners my car control was all screwed up so I would be swerving as I exited corners due to having had such a horrible corner entry/apex/exit. So here is what I did: I changed my damper and center spring settings on my wheel from 0% to 5%. 0% works great for me in iRacing but in R3E it gives me that "floaty" feeling which is horrible on turn in when I run R3E and I believe is somehow exaggerated by all the other wonderful FFB effects that R3E provides. And YES, I have read that turning off center Spring and Damper settings is recommended but that does not work for me. Anyway, the sim feels much better with these settings. To test it I drove the Audi R8 from ADAC GT Masters at the Red Bull Ring and checked my times. I was a full second faster with the new settings on the wheel. BTW, I gained that full second on the first full flying lap. Again, I didn't change anything else in game. I'm sorry to not have all my settings memorized but I will post them here and then have a look later and update/add any I missed. That way all can see what I've done and fell free to discuss and criticize. Here they are:

EDIT: Updated my settings. Sorry if the actual order is jumbled a bit. Feel free to critique guys. Also, if the FFB settings in certain areas seem a bit low it is because I intentionally lowered certain effects (like shift effect, engine vibe , kerb vibe, brake vibe) to try and isolate that "floaty" feeling around center that I am describing. I may turn them back up as center feel has improved.

Wheel: Thrustmaster TX Racing Wheel
Degrees: 900
Spring: 5%
Damper: 5%

In-Game:
540 degrees with 23 wheel lock

H Pattern Shift: off
Speed Sensitive Steering: 40
Min Steering Speed 120 (mph)
Max Steering Speed: 185 (mph)
Analog Sectors are all set to : 0
Return Multiplier: 0.3
Steering Sensitivity: 40%
Throttle Sensitivity: 50%
Brake Sensitivity: 65%
Clutch Sensitivity: 50%
Steering Dead Zone: 0%
Throttle Dead Zone: 0%
Brake Dead Zone: 0%
Clutch Dead Zone: 0%

Force Feedback: On (duh)
Inverted Force Feedback: Off
Gamepad Rumble: Off
Force Feedback Intensity: 85%
Smoothing: 25%

FORCE FEEDBACK EFFECT SETTINGS:
Engine Vibrations: 10%
Brake Vibrations: 8%
Kerb Vibrations: 5%
Shift Effect: 5%
Good Vibrations: 100% (LOL, not a real setting just how the game makes you feel)

STEERING FORCE SETTINGS:
Steering Force Intensity: 100%
Understeer 65%
Vertical Load: 100%
Lateral Force: 45%
Steering Rack: 20%

Edited: Let me know if I missed something

 

[Andi Goodwin]

nice post above

Andi

 

[Le_Poilu]

A small thing about "wheel feeling" : do you have Vsync ON or OFF ?

Vsync can be a bummer, as it add some input latency.
You'll may not see it as clear as the nose in the middle of your face, but while driving you get a much precise feeling from the wheel when Vsync is OFF.