"Thrustmaster T500 RS " VS "Forza Motorsport CSR value pack XL"

[HSken]

I have a really hard time yo chose between two wheel and would apriciate some advice. "Thrustmaster T500 RS Racing Wheel" +/- 390€ vs the "Forza Motorsport CSR wheel value pack XL" 360€.

What interests me the most is the feel and the ffb of the wheels and reaching the buttons, I have seen all the video reviews but still not sure what to buy, the "Forza Motorsport CSR Elite wheel" 540€, without pedals, is way to expensive.

I currently have a G25, which I have since the release of it, it has millions of KM, its time to replace it, what I don't like of the G25 is that it makes a lot of noise and that you feel the messings of the gears sometimes, and most off all that it spins around when my pc boots!
HELP PLEASE

 

[Hampus Andersson]

T500 is the better wheel in terms of FFB and feel. It´s closer to the Elite then it is to the CSR which is a 911 wheel with a new shell really.

Clubsport pedals is way better then T500 pedals, i haven´t even looked at my T500 pedals as they have no loadcell.

 

[mikem]

Be aware (not beware) that a load-cell brake mod for the T500RS pedal should be available in the next few months. The person responsible for the mod already has it working and the next step is to have it tested by a few people. Here's the link for the discussion on a different forum: http://insidesimracing.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=151&t=6164

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Be aware (not beware) that a load-cell brake mod for the T500RS pedal should be available in the next few months. The person responsible for the mod already has it working and the next step is to have it tested by a few people. Here's the link for the discussion on a different forum: http://insidesimracing.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=151&t=6164

Is it a dynamic one in terms of pressure?

 

[mikem]

Is it a dynamic one in terms of pressure?

I'm not sure but here's John Bodin's own explanation to his initial concept: http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6520779#post6520779

And here's the latest update: http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6716982#post6716982

I should add, looking at the diagram, that the load cell covers all the pedal and not just the brake.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Does not seem like it To bad, it´s a very important feature imo. Very important when switching from car to car.

So you are saying the load cell will work for gas and clutch? That seems weird as you don´t want pressure sensitivity on those pedals.

 

[mikem]

Does not seem like it To bad, it´s a very important feature imo. Very important when switching from car to car.

So you are saying the load cell will work for gas and clutch? That seems weird as you don´t want pressure sensitivity on those pedals.

Don't quote me on that- I have no idea how load cell works other than people say that it's better than potentiometer. You might want to ask John himself- I don't know it he's on RD forum but I can try and ask him on GTP or ISR forum (along with first question).

 

[Jim Cole]

I see no real issue with potentiometers for the gas pedal, real vehicles use them and they work great in that respect.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I see no real issue with potentiometers for the gas pedal, real vehicles use them and they work great in that respect.

I don´t think pedals use anything but a potentiometer for gas pedal.

 

[mikem]

Here's the last two updates from John who's responsible for the load-cell mod:

(April 23, 2012)

It seems like I have found a relatively cost-effective solution that will give the brake pedal a realistic-feeling amount of travel -- not as much travel as the brake pedal on my Ford Focus, but a lot more than the "stiff, no-travel" option that I was using. I'm talking about maybe 1/2" of travel (or around 12.7mm), but it's a significant improvement in terms of feel, and I think it probably doesn't feel too far off from a highly pressurized, race-prepped braking system now.

My initial impression was that this latest mod gives a more realistic-feeling pedal, but the braking inputs feel less direct (which I would expect to be the case).

After running just a few laps in iRacing at Charlotte Road Course in the Spec Racer Ford, though, I was able to lay down back-to-back laps in the mid-1:22 range, which is knocking on the door of my personal best, so there does seem to be some adaptation period, but I was pleasantly surprised that I seemed able to quickly get back up to speed with this mod (especially since I had been out of town for a week and hadn't had any chance to do any iRacing over that time). Repeated use seems to indicate that this solution works very well, and I've not had any braking-related issues that seem to point to the additional travel causing any lack of precision. Overall, the brakes seem appropriately linear and responsive.

Using this as part of my final production version means that the brakes WILL have some travel -- not a ton, and not as much as your average road car, perhaps, but not far off from what you currently get with Thrustmaster's "realistic brake mod" spring installed (or maybe a little less travel than that).

My only real hold-up now is waiting for the electronics package to be finalized. I'm working with Leo Bodnar on that, and that is the last piece to fall into place. With Leo's somewhat busy schedule, I'm not sure what kind of ETA to expect there, but once that's nailed-down we should be ready to go into production, I think.

I would still like to get some additional units out for use with some other beta testers, too, but at this point I may just forgo that and go straight into production.

More later.

And from today (May 29, 2012)

For those who have been following the progress of my load cell mod project for the T500RS pedals, here's a brief update:

I have received the production prototype interface circuit boards and I got everything assembled over the weekend. The interface board works EXACTLY as planned, so the first actual production units should be ready shortly (as soon as I receive the necessary load cells, which have been ordered).

The first finished production prototype unit will be going to InsideSimRacing's Darin Gangi, and the second unit will be going to my good friend Cary Bettenhausen for further testing/evaluation.

Overall, I'm very satisfied with the final design at this point -- the installation should be fairly straightforward for the end users, and the overall functionality is solid and reliable.

The production load cell units will work when directly attached to the T500RS wheel, which will ensure that the T500RS whee/pedal setup remains fully compatible for use with PC-based sims and for use with the PS3. The pedals may also be used as stand-alone pedals (minus the wheel) using a Bodnar DFP/G25 USB adapter (or similar) when used with one of my Bodinhausen adapters (which are available through Sim-Sport.net).

I will NOT be taking pre-orders at this time, so please don't flood me with PMs asking about ordering. I anticipate at this point that the first production units will be available for sale starting in July (pending fulfillment of open parts orders), and I will make an announcement here regarding availability if I receive the necessary approval to do so.

More later, but at this point it looks like all the development work is behind me now, and the overall design is sufficiently finalized to justify full production using the current design.

 

[Guy Moulton]

I went from CSP to the T500RS pedals (I ran the T500 witht he CSP for a while) and the T500 pedals ARE EVERY BIT AS GOOD AS THE LOAD CELL PEDALS. I am using the brake stiffness mod that came with the T500's and these pedals are awesome.

The CSP brake is good and I noticed immediately when I upgraded from my G25 pedals, my lap times dropped almost over night. But when I went from the CSP to the T500 pedals I didn't lose a step. I'd recommend the T500 with the pedals. Not only will the brake surprise you but the superior build quality won't let you down.

For every race i was faster with the load cell on those CSP, I lost a race because those pedals had so many issues.

 

[mikem]

...
The CSP brake is good and I noticed immediately when I upgraded from my G25 pedals, my lap times dropped almost over night. But when I went from the CSP to the T500 pedals I didn't lose a step. I'd recommend the T500 with the pedals. Not only will the brake surprise you but the superior build quality won't let you down.
...

But soon you'll have the option of adding load-cell with almost no physical modification to the T500RS pedal itself. Here's a quote from one of the beta tester of T500RS load-cell mod regarding installation:

Installation is easy.
1. Remove realistic brake mod from T500rs pedals set
2. Remove pad and spring from realistic brake bracket.
3. Bolt load cell assembly to realistic brake mod bracket.
4. Reinstall brake mod bracket with load cell assembly to pedal set.

To Hampus' question as to whether the brake mod will have dynamic pressure ("Is it a dynamic one in terms of pressure?"):

Not sure if I fully understand the question, but the load cell will add a considerable amount of resistance -- I'm using a 35kg load cell, which works out to about 77lbs of force. With the mounting arrangement and the shock-absorbing linkage I've settled on, the pedal WILL have some travel to it (roughly 1/2" or so, or around 13mm, which doesn't seem like much, but it feels pretty good underfoot) -- this means it won't feel like a rigid, immobile, "ultra-pressurized" brake pedal; it WILL be firm, but it will have some pedal movement to help better simulate an actual brake pedal.

The end result is purely pressure-based, not distance-based like potentiometer-based pedals, and the load cell has fairly linear output based on pressure, meaning that the braking force increases steadily as the pressure applied increases, so I think the answer to your question is yes, the mod will be dynamic in terms of pressure.

 

[Guy Moulton]

I'm no sure I will go with that load cell mod. It interests me, but these pedals don't need it and I'm not going to mess with a good thing. I've been watching that mod with interest. :-/

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Not sure if I fully understand the question, but the load cell will add a considerable amount of resistance -- I'm using a 35kg load cell, which works out to about 77lbs of force. With the mounting arrangement and the shock-absorbing linkage I've settled on, the pedal WILL have some travel to it (roughly 1/2" or so, or around 13mm, which doesn't seem like much, but it feels pretty good underfoot) -- this means it won't feel like a rigid, immobile, "ultra-pressurized" brake pedal; it WILL be firm, but it will have some pedal movement to help better simulate an actual brake pedal.

The end result is purely pressure-based, not distance-based like potentiometer-based pedals, and the load cell has fairly linear output based on pressure, meaning that the braking force increases steadily as the pressure applied increases, so I think the answer to your question is yes, the mod will be dynamic in terms of pressure.

Ok thanks. So it´s not adjustable pressure but instead a fixed pressure.

To bad, i can´t drive cars with the same pressure, just throws me off when i have to apply the same braking force for two completely different cars.
Had it been adjustable pressure then i would have bought it in a heart beat.
Will probably sell the pedals and keep my CSP´s until i can afford CST´s.

 

[mikem]

Ok thanks. So it´s not adjustable pressure but instead a fixed pressure.

To bad, i can´t drive cars with the same pressure, just throws me off when i have to apply the same braking force for two completely different cars.
Had it been adjustable pressure then i would have bought it in a heart beat.
Will probably sell the pedals and keep my CSP´s until i can afford CST´s.

I thought the question was regarding dynamic pressure as oppose to adjustable pressure.

But I see your point. You probably get offers for the pedal once the load-cell mod comes out

The reason John Bodin eschewed the idea of some kind of an adjustable pressure (like the rotary switch on the CSW) is to keep the cost down and the design simple enough to minimise reliability issue(s). Unlike Fanatec, I'm sure he can't afford to keep sending customers new load-cells Besides, you can do software based brake sensitivity adjustment in iRacing or even games like GT5 (sensitivity and bias for each car).