PC2 The Project CARS Survey: Have Your Say!

[Paul Jeffrey]

Project CARS developers Slightly Mad Studios have launched a sizable survey aimed at gathering opinions about their current title and its in development sequel, Project CARS 2, allowing everyone to voice their opinion on the direction the franchise should take.

The survey is open to anyone who wishes to partake regardless of WMD membership status.

Although a smash hit in the sales charts, PCARS received quite a bit of bad press upon it's release from the sim racing community, and deservedly so, with many feeling a title that had been in development for such a long time shouldn't have been launched with such a sizable number of glitches, bugs and an all round unpolished feel that the title had on initial release.

It appears that the World of Mass Development community driven project is looking to learn from past mistakes and is opening up to a wider audience with this survey.

How do you feel PCARS should develop the game (and sequel) going forward? Leave your comments in the section below!

 

[aleph]

I answered "No", but I must make it clear that I have no formed opinion about PCars itself because I was never able to play it properly. I own two wheels - Fanatec CSR and G27 - and neither works well out of the box with the game, contrarily to what happens with practically any other racing sim in the market - even GT6, which doesn't recognize my Fanatec, does a better job at that. At first I did try to make sense of the convoluted FFB system, but after repeatedly posting simple questions in their forum and never getting an informed answer from the development team, and having spent around 20 hours (according to Steam) trying to get a satisfactory feel, I simply gave it up. Apparently FFB tuning is a sort of initiation test for the truly faithful, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to do that. It is not a localized problem, as proven by the thousands - yes, thousands - of pages with FFB hints and tweaks in the forum, but the developers keep treating this as a non-issue and everybody seems to accept as natural that the game only works well through the efforts of Jack Spade, a guy who isn't even in the development team. I do believe PCars has great potential and it sure look pretty on screen when I turn it on once in a while to check whether recent patches have addressed the problem, but disregard for this glaring issue killed all joy in it for me.

 

[EpilepticToast]

It's the only game that's at least made the effort to give console users something better and more serious than GT/Forza, and doing so on a tight budget. I'd call it a simulade because it's 75% there right now, just missing a few key things from real world racing. I've had many annoying problems with Pcars but the joy from when the game works (more stable these days, getting better) totally outweighs the negativity. The statement that all the cars feel the same is laughable, that is the case with a game like forza, but every single car is unique in this game with the majority of them handling completely different to the others. I am fully behind SMS because they chose to go the hard way and develop on consoles (if it was PC only I have no doubt it would be the best sim by a mile due to single platform development). this causes them so many problems and bugs in coding that they have to use up more resources to address issues 3 times over for each platform. It's the only game I've ever played that has such dedicated support to those in the community that actually care about it's success. You can actually post on the forum and know that your constructive feedback will be addressed at least by a mod to be forwarded to devs. I do agree that Pcars 1 is still somewhat of a beta, which only means they will learn from it for the creation of the 2nd. Even with the problematic bugs, this game and the enjoyment of true wheel to wheel racing it brings is worth $70 easily. People are way too impatient and entitled these days, but those of us with sense can see that this franchise has massive potential to be a success given a few years of development.

 

[Deleted member 113561]

Come on. I said it is a sim, just not as serious as RF2, GSCE etc. (3 classes of sim, Sim, Simcade, arcade) Pcars is in the middle class. You need to bring proofs/facts to support your claims. Come on, give us proofs/facts. And stop trying to bring admin in on this discussion. As you can see from the poll and the replies on here, no one regards it as a serious sim.

(cue Neuer31 looking for old posts to string out the argument but he brings no proof that the game is a real sim, but I bet he reverts to verbal abuse)

You need to bring proofs & facts - everyone can see that since development of PCARS 1 you claim its Simcade, but you never brought any facts here. Now you try to turn it around and ask me for proofs and facts. It is OFFICIALLY a Sim. Its written like this in Wikipedia, on the Website of PCARS, over 50% of the users here in Racedepartment say its a pure Sim as in rF2. As said even with overwhelming indices and facts you still claim without any facts that it is Simcade.

Admin explicit said we should stop this discussion, you officially said you put me on ignore - but you obviously cant stop spreading your lies and bullshit around. And still you need to insult me, as you did multiple times in PMs aswell to me as to others.

(cue Neuer31 looking for old posts to string out the argument but he brings no proof that the game is a real sim, but I bet he reverts to verbal abuse)

See you cant stop insulting. Btw nearly everyone participating in the discussion agreed with me that youre trolling here. That can also be seen in the thread: "IS PROJECT CARS REALISTIC?" & "PROJECT CARS FIRST IMPRESSIONS REVIEW". There is also a huge discussion.
The verbal acuse is only comming from you as you need to insult people here ("idiot", "5year old child", "immature", threating with ban, etc. its all documented)

This poll is not about if PCARS is a Sim or not. But obviously you cant read. Here a poll with nearly 400 votes in Racedepartment (its from release, over the last patches it even got better. so expect that more people would today vote for "Yes, it definitely is!")

Where are your proofs / facts. In the mentioned threads you NEVER posted a single one.

 

[St3fan]

I felt that the "you prove this" kind of argument somewhat familiar about PCars, then I found this old and closed thread: http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/project-cars-first-impressions-review.112727/ the "prove it" "proven" argument started already on page 1.

Guys, calm down and please stop.

It's the only game that's at least made the effort to give console users something better and more serious than GT/Forza

Sometimes I feel it very strange that whenever a racing title is said to be released on console, sim racers' first thought goes straight to "physics will be downgraded because console racers don't do sims well". To me this kind of thought is just some stereotype BS. This in my eye is just some PC gamer elitism. It is stupid, and really getting old. On the other hand, IMHO sim racing developers who do make physics more "arcadish" to "cater to console gamers' taste" are making the wrong decision unless their goal of developing their racing title is NOT to make a quality product.

that the game only works well through the efforts of Jack Spade, a guy who isn't even in the development team.

The first time I checked the JackSpade FFB stuff and saw the enormous Excel spreasheet, I really felt annoyed by the developers. While so many people liked that thread on PCars' official forum, has anyone ever thought, "Maybe it should have been the devs' job to make the FFB right in the first place?" Also even with the JackSpade, I've had lots of WTF times when I lost control of the car simply because I don't sense anything from the wheel. I have a friend who goes to track days very often so I try to persuade him into sim racing with me. He decides not to upgrade his PC for now, but still tries to get a taste of sim racing by ordering a Thrustmaster TX and a copy of PCars for his Xbone. He doesn't enjoy it because of the FFB, and thus he decides he doesn't like sim racing at all.

On my first day (also the official launch day) in PCars, I made a video, slightly complained about the lack of information conveyed through the FFB (I really did that very slightly, didn't swear, didn't use any inappropriate or strong words), then someone commented it was my fault. He said it was a serious sim that it should be hard to drive, and I was like, this was not my first sim and PCars in some sense was one of the easiest to drive. He then told me that the game simply didn't support my G27 and I should change my gear, and he asked me if I had motion rig because that was the only way that I could really feel how awesome PCars was. Seriously.

 

[Matt Y]

I can't believe that you have buy a thousand euros just to have a voice in the development of a game. How undemocratic.

 

[Andy_J]

It is OFFICIALLY a Sim. Its written like this in Wikipedia

Well that settles it then. If Wikipedia says it's a full blown sim then it must be.

Neuer31, I don't disagree with you, it is a sim, just not in the same class as the others. No need to get so upset man. Just accept the truth. At least it's not in the 3rd class (arcade) so be grateful.

Anyway judging by the responses here I would say most agree and for that reason they will not be buying Pcars 2 (aka Shift 4).
Have a nice day.

 

[Andy_J]

Where are your proofs / facts. In the mentioned threads you NEVER posted a single one.

The proof is in the pudding old chap.

 

[Deleted member 113561]

I can't believe that you have buy a thousand euros just to have a voice in the development of a game. How undemocratic.

You dont need to ... you needed 25€ for PCARS 1 and 50£ in PCARS 2.
For 45€ in PCARS 1 you got the Limited Edition at release and some DLCs (iirc) and access to weekly (in the end it was daily) builds. If you read and posted regulary you had a voice in development. And in the end you got the profits back.
The same is for the 50£ in PCARS 2 except the part with the profits.
So i dont see the undemocratic part in it.

Neuer31, I don't disagree with you, it is a sim, just not in the same class as the others. No need to get so upset man. Just accept the truth. At least it's not in the 3rd class (arcade) so be grateful.

The proof is in the pudding old chap.

The ultimative proof that youre just a troll
Game over

 

[Andy_J]

No need to get so upset man.

Please don't take this the wrong way Andy, because I value your opinion and you were, in fact, right about the issues on release.
Hey Robert, I don't take it the wrong way. Thanks.

So along with the "unconscious bias" question, I'd ask another if you don't mind -- can they ever port a true SIM on this gen consoles?
In my opinion, the answer is no, Robert. Consoles just aren't dynamic enough and the devs prefer easy playability and possible profits over realism and true Sim dynamics.

(It will be interesting to see if Assetto fans abandon it when it comes to console).
It will be very interesting indeed. I would think AC will be easier to port over due to it's real lack of substance compared to other sims. But I think it will be watered down and it will be made easier to target the correct audience. Much like Pcars has done.

This is just my subjective opinion though Robert. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing Pcars for it's ease of use compared to the other serious sims (coz I am not that good to be honest) And Assetto Corsa will have to be made easier than it is if it is to succeed on the consoles.
Cheers.
Andy

 

[Andy_J]

The ultimative proof that youre just a troll
Game over

OK Neuer31, what ever you say.

Hey I have an idea Neuer31, why don't you contribute to RaceDepartment and join me and others in some Pcars club racing. We could possibly sort our differences out on the track. It would be great fun and you will be able to feel better by actually helping RD to pay for the excellent Race Sim service it provides.
What do you say old chap? Come on don't be shy. I will shake your virtual hand on the virtual track. You never know, you might actually enjoy it.

 

[aleph]

The whole discussion about PCars - or, for that matter, any other racing game - being or not a true sim is utterly irrelevant to me. The real questions to be asked are: (a) does it work well? (b) is it fun? From that viewpoint, both Grid Autosport and Stock Car Extreme, although on opposite sides of the sim spectrum, pass the test and I will play both, as well as many others in between, with equal pleasure on different occasions. The problem with PCars - to me at least - is that it simply doesn't pass (a), so it doesn't deliver (b).

Also, the assumption that difficulty to setup or to drive proves that a game is "serious" is quite flawed and equates to assuming that someone is intelligent just because you can't understand what he says. You can install rFactor 2 or AC and start driving right away. Of course, there is an underlying layer of complexity for those so inclined, but that doesn't detract from the first-hand experience. On the other hand, some races in GT6 are quite difficult, but that doesn't make it a real sim.

Finally, the "small team" argument for PCars doesn't hold in face of AC, which is developed by an even smaller team and works much better. Perhaps the guys at SMS overextended themselves, perhaps Kunos adopted a better strategy by first ironing out their product in the PC before migrating to console. Anyway, when that happens in the next few months, I think PCars will have a real contender in the console market.

 

[TzZyO]

The whole discussion about PCars - or, for that matter, any other racing game - being or not a true sim is utterly irrelevant to me. The real questions to be asked are: (a) does it work well? (b) is it fun? From that viewpoint, both Grid Autosport and Stock Car Extreme, although on opposite sides of the sim spectrum, pass the test and I will play both, as well as many others in between, with equal pleasure on different occasions. The problem with PCars - to me at least - is that it simply doesn't pass (a), so it doesn't deliver (b).

Also, the assumption that difficulty to setup or to drive proves that a game is "serious" is quite flawed and equates to assuming that someone is intelligent just because you can't understand what he says. You can install rFactor 2 or AC and start driving right away. Of course, there is an underlying layer of complexity for those so inclined, but that doesn't detract from the first-hand experience. On the other hand, some races in GT6 are quite difficult, but that doesn't make it a real sim.

Finally, the "small team" argument for PCars doesn't hold in face of AC, which is developed by an even smaller team and works much better. Perhaps the guys at SMS overextended themselves, perhaps Kunos adopted a better strategy by first ironing out their product in the PC before migrating to console. Anyway, when that happens in the next few months, I think PCars will have a real contender in the console market.

There is rarely a big enough post I can agree with entirely (minus the GT6 part, simply because I never had an opportunity to try it out), but this is just such an occasion.
Even though the "does it work well" part is rather vague...

In my opinion, the biggest problem of the sim (I'd still call it a sim) not really complying neither with "a", nor with "b" is its FFB implementation. It's great SMS gave us such extensive tools to adjust it to our liking, but... Since Mz makes little if any sense at all, the FFB in general just fails to do the job it's supposed to do, further let down by the Fz.
If SMS would address that, the overly snappiness issue and probably would have reduced the overall grip a little (I have a feeling the latter two are interconnected... as is the torque deficiency), Project CARS have a potential to become one of the best sims out there. How come? Well, for me it's the most precise driving tool. None of the others allows me to exert this much control over the car's position and attitude. At least where it comes to braking... On the other hand, give it some gas and you barely have any response at all.

Earlier I said that all the cars feel the same there. Could be it's the FFB failure as well. Even dialled down it resembles FFB of old arcade machines. Sometimes it even feels as if being just an "on/off" matter. Also, I have a feeling it's really laggy too... And it doesn't really change from one car to another.

I don't have any hopes for this sim being fixed anymore (actually, liked the old FFB more... it got only worse somewhere around the patch 2.0, in my opinion). However, chances are Project CARS 2 will provide a much better package. But SMS really needs to do something about the possibility to try it out before buying. What's with modern titles not having demos anyway?

Edit: Oh, and by the way. Where's the promised tyre flex? Maybe in rF2 it's overdone in some cases and underdone in others, but it is there.

 

[Dyrgl]

No way in hell. PCARS still has catastrophic problems:

- Ridiculous setup exploits (0 camber)
- Intermediate tyres useless in a lot of classes
- Broken pitstops: duration is not close to the real ones for each series, repairs don´t take extra time (you get a new engine and brakes for free each time you pit LOL)
- Broken pitstop interface: you have to enter the pits to make changes to the work the mechanics will do, you can´t do it in advance.
- "Glue on cars". The collision physics are terrible. Classes where contact is normal are hurted badly.
- Wet weather physics are ridiculous. Braking distances barely change from a dry track.
- Some classes have lame tyre models: Track tyres for road cars have no wear before being totally destroyed, Formula B cars medium compound is inmune to overheating, a lot of rain tyres don´t overheat enough on dry or light rain, a lot of intermediate tyres are useless in all conditions.
- Mirrors don´t reflect headlights until they´re within a second, making safe multiclass racing impossible.
- Broken replays with cars missing, people in wrong cars, cars parked on the straight.
- Crashes, crashes, CRASHES. Console versions crash all the time. Every week we get people crashing in out events.

Good luck selling a sequel for this ****, especially after the dishonest marketing campaign SMS and WMD pulled for the first one. Hope you grabbed a lot of money, because you´ve burned your credibility.

 

[jimortality]

No way in hell. PCARS still has catastrophic problems:

- Ridiculous setup exploits (0 camber)
- Intermediate tyres useless in a lot of classes
- Broken pitstops: duration is not close to the real ones for each series, repairs don´t take extra time (you get a new engine and brakes for free each time you pit LOL)
- Broken pitstop interface: you have to enter the pits to make changes to the work the mechanics will do, you can´t do it in advance.
- "Glue on cars". The collision physics are terrible. Classes where contact is normal are hurted badly.
- Wet weather physics are ridiculous. Braking distances barely change from a dry track.
- Some classes have lame tyre models: Track tyres for road cars have no wear before being totally destroyed, Formula B cars medium compound is inmune to overheating, a lot of rain tyres don´t overheat enough on dry or light rain, a lot of intermediate tyres are useless in all conditions.
- Mirrors don´t reflect headlights until they´re within a second, making safe multiclass racing impossible.
- Broken replays with cars missing, people in wrong cars, cars parked on the straight.
- Crashes, crashes, CRASHES. Console versions crash all the time. Every week we get people crashing in out events.

Good luck selling a sequel for this ****, especially after the dishonest marketing campaign SMS and WMD pulled for the first one. Hope you grabbed a lot of money, because you´ve burned your credibility.

I'll get the popcorn

 

[Dyrgl]

I'll get the popcorn

Good move, because now it´s when SMShills come here and try to sell these problems are actually features "to make the game more realistic".

They´re already movilizing their troops! Apparently RD has a crazy vendetta against them and that´s why the results of this thread are going this way, it´s not because their product is bad.

<Mod Edit: Hotlink removed>

 

[Deleted member 113561]

Good move, because now it´s when SMShills come here and try to sell these problems are actually features "to make the game more realistic".

They´re already movilizing their troops! Apparently RD has a crazy vendetta against them and that´s why the results of this thread are going this way, it´s not because their product is bad.

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?42311-The-power-of-suggestion

Personally im really asking myself: Why is there such a poll here? I mean the game is FAR from being finished - so what is this poll doing here? I would find it good if its like 6 month before release and some footage leaked etc. But so early in development? Seriously?

Btw: Go piss on ISI/rF or iRacing or Kunos/AC, you will see there will be the exact same reaction (if not even worse)

No way in hell. PCARS still has catastrophic problems:

- Ridiculous setup exploits (0 camber)
- Intermediate tyres useless in a lot of classes
- Broken pitstops: duration is not close to the real ones for each series, repairs don´t take extra time (you get a new engine and brakes for free each time you pit LOL)
- Broken pitstop interface: you have to enter the pits to make changes to the work the mechanics will do, you can´t do it in advance.
- "Glue on cars". The collision physics are terrible. Classes where contact is normal are hurted badly.
- Wet weather physics are ridiculous. Braking distances barely change from a dry track.
- Some classes have lame tyre models: Track tyres for road cars have no wear before being totally destroyed, Formula B cars medium compound is inmune to overheating, a lot of rain tyres don´t overheat enough on dry or light rain, a lot of intermediate tyres are useless in all conditions.
- Mirrors don´t reflect headlights until they´re within a second, making safe multiclass racing impossible.
- Broken replays with cars missing, people in wrong cars, cars parked on the straight.
- Crashes, crashes, CRASHES. Console versions crash all the time. Every week we get people crashing in out events.

Good luck selling a sequel for this ****, especially after the dishonest marketing campaign SMS and WMD pulled for the first one. Hope you grabbed a lot of money, because you´ve burned your credibility.

- There is only 1 known setup exploit - theyre on fixing it, its the camber bug
- Yep rF2 or iRacing pitstops are so much more realistic ....(NOT)
- Glue on cars is an overdone effect, it is realistic though, there are multiple example in real life of it
- Wet weather physics are ridiculous. Braking distances barely change from a dry track. - Ridiculous? I tell you what is ridiculous: Most sims dont even have wet weather and Assetto Corsa doesnt even have night. Wet weather is done very well. Imo its realistically done. If you use ABS they change by very few meters, if you dont use ABS then the difference is very noticable for me. Give it a try in Rain and Thunderstorm, good luck trying to brake at the same braking points as in dry..........
- Lame tyre models? Track tyres for road cars are not Pirelli F1 tyres, you should know that. Formula B medium tyres can overheat quite easily, a matter of setup and track, try Catalunya GP ie. I dont know about actual wet tire performance though, if i remember correctly youre right for Version 1.0., afaik they changed it a few patches ago, i may try it out next time for you to check if its still a problem.
- That with the mirrors is wrong (at least on PC)
- Yep replays are broken
- That about crashes is just wrong

Yep youre **** (whatever it means)

I'll get the popcorn

I have some salty popcorn if you want

 

[Andy_J]

@neuer31 You have ignored my olive branch. Come on, take me up on the offer. I'll even pay for your 1 month Racedepartment sub to enable you to race with us.
Take the offer and we can discuss Pcars as we race it.

 

[Dyrgl]

Personally im really asking myself: Why is there such a poll here?

Because this is a racing sim forum.

- There is only 1 known setup exploit - theyre on fixing it, its the camber bug

Yep, I´m sure being able to use always minimum ride height because underbody collisions are **** is not an exploit. Or the Formula B pressure exploit for the Yiro compound. Really, go play the game and get a clue.

- Yep rF2 or iRacing pitstops are so much more realistic ....(NOT)

Sorry mate, this ain´t fanboy wars, you might be a shill but I have no agenda and couldn´t care less. The pitstops in PCARS are ****, and if that´s the best defense you have, that´s admission. Make them last differently depending on class. Make repairs cost extra time. Forget about animations for muppets and focus on them not wrecking the races-

- Glue on cars is an overdone effect, it is realistic though, there are multiple example in real life of it

SMS copyrighted line. Now you´ll embarrass yourself posting a video of a "PIT maneuvre" situation. IRL cars don´t get glued on lateral door to door contact, only nose to tail. And even then the car ahead rotates and spins, instead of both cars going straight on until they´re doing 70 km/h.

- Wet weather physics are ridiculous. Braking distances barely change from a dry track. - Ridiculous? I tell you what is ridiculous: Most sims dont even have wet weather and Assetto Corsa doesnt even have night. Wet weather is done very well. Imo its realistically done. If you use ABS they change by very few meters, if you dont use ABS then the difference is very noticable for me. Give it a try in Rain and Thunderstorm, good luck trying to brake at the same braking points as in dry..........

Wet weather is crap, as proved by a muppet like me doing 1:32´s with the Lotus 98T in heavy rain at Monza, when Vettel´s pole in 2008 was a 1:37. And yeah, assists were off, yada, yada, yada. 100 brake pressure, no ABS, low downforce. And I could brake past the 150 meters board. Now go look for footage of 2008, and then when you have a clue, come back.

- Lame tyre models? Track tyres for road cars are not Pirelli F1 tyres, you should know that. Formula B medium tyres can overheat quite easily, a matter of setup and track, try Catalunya GP ie. I dont know about actual wet tire performance though, if i remember correctly youre right for Version 1.0., afaik they changed it a few patches ago, i may try it out next time for you to check if its still a problem.

You don´t even play the game. Of course the Yiro´s overheat easily, problem is THEY DON´T LOSE GRIP OR LIFE even running them at crazy temperatures. You just go faster thanks to lower pressures.

Your road "track" tyre is rubbish. You run the indicator down, same pace from 100% to 0%. Then you keep driving another dozen laps with the indicator empty and they´re still giving the exact same grip. Then at some point they get damaged. Total rubbish.

- That with the mirrors is wrong (at least on PC)

Nope, it´s not. Go out in the night. Try to spot the guy behind you down a straight. If he´s more than 1.something away, you can´t see him.

- Yep replays are broken

No ****...

- That about crashes is just wrong

So wrong I just sent a couple more reports to Sony this afternoon.

Yep youre **** (whatever it means)

Great argument.

On a general note, it would be nice if shills at least played the game to understand what they´re trying to defend. This is too weak.

 

[Andy_J]

What's a shill?

 

[nezeiges]

Bought the game the day it came out. Strugled a week just to get it started. Was truly disapointed because of the many bugs in the game. FFB was a bad. Used Jake Spade's FFB tweaker files and the cars became drivable.
Graphics; I have not seen better (Brilliant)
Played the carreer game a lot but after half a year my car still starts the seccond race in the gear I finished the first race in and it should be in neutral. (easy to fix I think)
If I would have known I had to pay for DLC I would not have bought the game at this price (49 EURO). I payed 36 EURO for GTR2 and there were very little bugs in the game and I still love to play it, dispite the graphics being poor for todays standards.
Will I buy PCARS 2, I don't think so.