Test 2 @ Catalunya 21st - 24th February 2012

[Ivan Mills]

In 08 he won the Qual battle with Bourdais at 13-4 (one no time for Vet)
So he´s definitely beatable, especially if you put a champion or a highly ranked driver in the other seat.

He is certainly beatable,but in terms of speed and precision he is pretty maxed out and is one driver(atm) that i will bet on to beat any other driver on the current grid in 1lap/empty car Q format(over a season,same car)

disclaimer: just my opinion

 

[Hampus Andersson]

He is certainly beatable,but in terms of speed and precision he is pretty maxed out and is one driver(atm) that i will bet on to beat any other driver on the current grid in 1lap/empty car Q format(over a season)

disclaimer: just my opinion

Yea like i said, we have absolutely nothing to compare him with.
Judging from past series against Di Resta for example it was extremely even with Di Resta taking more poles and winning the championship.

It´s very easy to look at a guy with no competition and say it´s spectacular.

 

[Ivan Mills]

It´s very easy to look at a guy with no competition and say it´s spectacular.

I mean, looking at his driving it's difficult to imagine anyone extracting more from the same car

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I mean, looking at his driving it's difficult to imagine anyone extracting more from the same car

That´s because you only see him in the car with that level of driving. If a car does everything you ask of it, and then some it is very easy to extract everything from it.

Just look at how fine the car is when he lost it at Monza, just some op-lock and it was fine.
That spin in another car would most definitely end up in a crash. or going off track.

 

[Ivan Mills]

If a car does everything you ask of it, and then some it is very easy to extract everything from it.

Even if we were to assume that it's "very easy" to extract everything from the car in high-pressured 1lap qualy enviroment i still think his precision will be faster at the end

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Even if we were to assume that it's "very easy" to extract everything from the car in high-pressured 1lap qualy enviroment i still think his precision will be faster at the end

When you know you have the absolute fastest car. Sometimes with almost a second, the pressure isn´t even half as much as if we were talking hundreds instead of several tenths.

This is the reason we need to see him get a better teammate. There´s no competition from other teams or even in the team.
Bit hard to draw any conclusions by that.

 

[Ivan Mills]

This is the reason we need to see him get a better teammate. There´s no competition from other teams or even in the team.
Bit hard to draw any conclusions by that.

Yeah that would be a very interesting comparison indeed....but since the chances of that happening(near future) are fairly remote we can instead speculate if anyone else of the oher 4 can go faster then SV in that car...i say No

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Yeah that would be a very interesting comparison indeed....but since the chances of that happening(near future) are fairly remote we can instead speculate if anyone else of the oher 4 can go faster then SV in that car...i say No

I say judging by past performances that he has been beaten, by Paul Di Resta even. That´s he´s not the second coming of Jesus in terms of one lap pace.

 

[Ivan Mills]

I say judging by past performances that he has been beaten, by Paul Di Resta even. That´s he´s not the second coming of Jesus in terms of one lap pace.

some driver's don't fully unlock their potential until they come to F1,Vettel and Schumacher to name a few,as for Jesus thing ,dont forget he broke the record last year and holds the best stats for pole in a season,ever....also dont forget that thats how records are broken..u need a fast car,but u also need to drive perfect lines

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

Best stats... Depends how you look on stats ;P Percentage or number of poles

 

[Ivan Mills]

Best stats... Depends how you look on stats ;P Percentage or number of poles

Percentage in Q3 and poles

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

Percentage in poles, Vettel isn't even in the all-time top 3.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

some driver's don't fully unlock their potential until they come to F1,Vettel and Schumacher to name a few,as for Jesus thing ,dont forget he broke the record last year and holds the best stats for pole in a season,ever....also dont forget that thats how records are broken..u need a fast car,but u also need to drive perfect lines

Never forget that the fastest car always win the championship.
Remember the dominant Williams years? They pulled almost 2 seconds a lap faster then the great Senna.
Now was that down to the car being in another dimension or was it down to the drivers? Or the driver?

Remember Ferrari era? Was it down to Schumacher or was it down to Ferrari having unlimited money, unlimited testing, Ross Brawn, Jean Todt and generally probably the best group of people ever in the history of F1 all working under the same roof together with Bridgestone as a close relationship?

Remember Mclaren era with Prost and Senna dominating F1. Now was it down to the car or the drivers?
Was Senna remembered for those years or was he remembered for what he could do with non winning machines or when it started to rain?

Same deal with the Red Bull era. You can´t win without a car. If you don´t win with that car the other driver will, unless he´s a complete beginner.
Best car always wins the championship.

The last couple of years, 09-10-11 has been weird in terms of competitiveness.
2005 - Competitive cars.
2006 - Same deal.
2007 - Same deal.
2008 - Same deal.
2009 - Double diffuser, destroyed the whole championship. Brawn got ahead, Red Bull was starting their domination.
2010 - Red Bull car get´s closer to perfection, this is due to Adrian Newey.
2011 - First race the RBR is 0.8 seconds quicker over a lap in Q mode. That is NOT driver skills.

Adrian Newey - has won titles with 3 different teams.
He has designed cars that have won these championships,

1992
1993
1994

1996
1997
1998

2010
2011

Now in all these years, one of the drivers did not win the championship. Does that make the other driver the best there ever was or was this simply down to Newey outsmarting every single team on the grid?

Rory Byrne and his titles,

1995

1999
2000
2001
2002
2003
2004

Do you see now where i´m coming from when i say Vettel has yet proven himself to be considered one of the greats?

It´s not what you do with a superior car. It´s what you do with a non-superior car.
Or what you do in a car that can win races regularly but with other teams also having cars that can win plenty of races.

Take Alonso in 2010 and some of his starts in 2011, Spain, Monza and Abu Dhabi.
Take Hamilton as a rookie who was put up against a 2 time world champion and beat him in his first ever year in F1.
Do you know what kind of accomplishment that is? That´s a feat we probably never will see in F1 ever again.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

As F1 drivers used to say, 20% driver 80% car.
That 20% can be filled with a variety of drivers with different skill sets and levels and still bring the title home.
And when you have two drivers, the quicker of those two will take the title, it´s rather simple.

Does not mean the guy is a God because of it though. There´s much more to it then how many titles a driver has.

And it´s certainly not something i look at when comparing drivers. Or when i make my assessment on who i think is the best ever.

 

[Ivan Mills]

Percentage in poles, Vettel isn't even in the all-time top 3.

Even though you are correct(percentage wise) ,the other 3drivers you are refering to had only 16race seasons to SV's 19....

 

[Ivan Mills]

As F1 drivers used to say, 20% driver 80% car.
That 20% can be filled with a variety of drivers with different skill sets and levels and still bring the title home.
And when you have two drivers, the quicker of those two will take the title, it´s rather simple.

Does not mean the guy is a God because of it though. There´s much more to it then how many titles a driver has.

And it´s certainly not something i look at when comparing drivers. Or when i make my assessment on who i think is the best ever.

My argument here is that noone on the current grid can go faster(maybe match him) then SV in that RB7(1lap Q style), with which he took the pole/season record,so im not disputing any of the other things you are saying

 

[Hampus Andersson]

My argument here is that noone on the current grid can go faster(maybe match him) then SV in that RB7(1lap Q style), with which he took the pole/season record,so im not disputing any of the other things you are saying

But what is it based on? All you have is one side of the coin. At the moment there is nothing that would suggest that is the case.
The more plausible theory is that Vettel has had non-great teammates in the likes of Webber and Bourdais while Button/Hamilton/Alonso/Massa/Raikkonen all have a connection so we can draw the dots for most of them.

With Vettel it´s a grey zone because of the car he has and the lack of competition inside and outside the team.

Even though you are correct(percentage wise) ,the other 3drivers you are refering to had only 16race seasons to SV's 19....

What did Vettel have in common with the other three gentlemen?

All these cars were in a class of their own,

1988 - Mclaren - Both titles
1989 - Mclaren - Both titles
1992 - Williams - Both titles
1993 - Williams - Both titles
2010 - Red Bull - Both titles
2011 - Red Bull - Both titles

Superior cars comes along every once in a while.
The fastest driver in that team that year will get the accolades for it.
When you have two greats it will be very close, sometimes even controversial.
When you have one great it will be utter domination.

 

[Ivan Mills]

I agree that there is no way to trully measure it,but solely observing his qualy efforts it looks like he can establish a very high limit for the car..the very maximum

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I agree that there is no way to trully measure it,but solely observing his qualy efforts it looks like he can establish a very high limit for the car..the very maximum

Yea no doubt he is a great qualifier, i don´t think anyone is disputing that

Question is how good Either way, i hope someday he will get a champion next to him.
If he beats him like he beat Webber then my hats of to him, he truly is the second coming of Jesus. (not that i´m religious but you get the idea)

 

[Ivan Mills]

Question is how good quote]

i think raw talent and speed are judged over a single lap run...how good is SV?..based on his pole laps he is able to get the very maximum the car has to offer and although we dont have a "proper" teamamte it is save to conlclude that even if he did they would just be matching the very maximum

and i think this just about wraps it up