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SP Experience/ Adaptive AI

Discussion in 'RaceRoom Racing Experience' started by UOPshadow, Dec 7, 2013.

  1. First off: I don't play MP, so it was okay for me to buy the game for SP only and I accepted that there wouldn't be pitstops. Also: I wouldn't have bought if they didn't offer the 2014 update also, since what I like about racing are strategical decisions regarding tires, pit stops and so on. And these things where really important in the real DTM this year. Oh and I have no experience with RRE.

    I played the first race of the Championship several times with Practice/Qualifying/Race to see how the mechanics are working.


    So what's adaptive AI? Since there is no manual all I have is the information other users have given and what's floating in the net: adaptive AI adapts to you after 5-10 Laps. That's the theory.

    In practice, well, I would like to know how it exactly works, because I'm a little bit putzzled. To what does it adapt? My fastest time on the circuit? Some average from my last 5-10 Laps? Why 5-10 Laps? And then: WHEN does the AI adapt? In the same session? The next session? Does it adapt every time anew?

    My experience: I startet a free practice, the AI was usually 1.5 Seconds off my pace. The same in Qualifying and in the race. Then I quit that, went back into the main menu and startet a new game. Now sometimes the best cars were in range of my fastest lap... in one particular game in Practice and the first 2 Qualifying sessions the AI did that very well, but in the last Qualifying session they were again off 1.5 seconds. The race was no better.

    It was one of the dullest races in my life. I won but I really crept around the track talking to my girlfriend and still I was 30 seconds in the lead after 31 rounds. If I had tried my best I'm sure I would have been 3 seconds better per lap. Beforehand I tried a full length race, but couldn't be bothered to drive 42 laps with the AI 2 seconds behind me in every lap. There's no point in it. This isn't fun, this is work and really boring.


    The thing is: The driving is nice, the graphics really suit me, I tweaked my FFB to my liking and WHEN the AI is up to your speed or faster it is really enjoyable. This is what I got out of the demos. That's great and I like it. But after several tries, I only had that pleasure to see the AI adapt maybe 2 times out of maybe 10. So the AI is good and it is fun raciing against them, but it would be important to know to what and when they adapt to you.

    Another letdown was what I call the rfactor syndrome...the AI does it's best lap in Practice and Qualifying in their very first lap... so if you have P1 after 3 of your own laps you don't have to be bothered to watch what will happen, because the AI usually can't beat you. Which is a shame because there is something like a TV director setting, where you see the other cars lap (sadly without the TV overlays).

    Then - there's no manual. Some things really aren't very clear to me. For example on the mini display in your car you have three warning signs. Oil lamp, exclamation mark and something that relates to your motor. At first I didn't have auto clutch on, so rightfully I smashed my gearbox to pieces after 3 Laps. I really would like to know what failures can happen to the car and why they happen. What do they mean exactly?

    I played with every option on real. So real flags, tire wear, motor failures - everything was activated. Tire wear I didn't really notice. It's probably there, but unnoticable to me.

    The thing is.. with an AI that most often doesn't adapt to you, no Pitstops, no Safety Car, no tire strategy BUT everything else working it is not the DTM Experience it is the Vettel Experience. Really, in my first full length race I was in no time 30 seconds in front. What should I do the next 32 laps? If you want to entertain yourself, well, you can hotlap, but that's it. In real life I would love this, in a game, well... As long as you don't make any dumb move (and driving really slowly doesn't cut as that) there's not much race to have.

    SimBin are very opaque regarding information or answering questions and because of this this message is directly adressed to them:

    I know developing games is hard and afaik you only have a small team, but there are only so many things I can accept when I pay for a full price game. I bought a fully functional hotlap simulator with beautiful modeled cars and tracks (credit where credit's due), where the driving is great fun and all else works indeed, but: without proper working AI this game is worthless to me. The AI is good IF it is up to my pace, but I it's far to erratic how this works. Please fix the Race Experience ASAP or explain how I can edit the AI so that this game is actually fun.

    PS: And for heavens sake write a manual or explain your options ingame better. Somebody without simulator knowledge will be helpless with so many options which aren't explained properly.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
    • Like Like x 4
  2. Yes, totaly agree with you. Today morning I've tried a full race weekend at the Eurospeedway Lausitz with all possible rules and Real mode but I don't note any improvements from the AI during the practice, qualifing sessions and race. I was wondering that the AI was around 5 seconds off my pace per lap! and logically the was no challenge and I stopped the race after only 4 laps.
    I don't try all other tracks but generally I think the AI is way to slow or I'm the only one with this?

    A litte add for example (Real Mode and all rules):
    My quali-time 1.18.4 .... 2. AI 1.23.8
    My race pace 1.19.5 ... 2. AI 1.24-25
  3. jimortality

    Premium Member

    Are they on the highest difficulty level?
  4. I'm really sure. In the main menu I set before race the difficulty to "Get Real".
    Or is there maybe an other setting/parameter?
  5. Its funny (and sad) that I'm having the same experience that everyone here is having. I have no clue how to get the 'Adaptive AI' to adapt to me. I'm running a championship now and I did a practice session of 20 laps at Brands Hatch (heard it only takes 10-12 laps to adapt on another forum but just wanted to be sure). I then proceeded to qualifying in my championship and was dead last. Odd...

    But I went on to have the best offline race I've ever had in my life. I was battling with the AI all race. They'd make a mistake and I'd move up a place, then I would make a mistake and they would take it back. I was totally immersed and after it was all said and done I made a top ten finish. Totally rewarding.

    Contrast this to my first race at Hockenheim where I did the same thing and ended up lapping the field... I just don't know exactly what to do to get the AI to adjust to.

    Simbin - please provide any additional information you can for us. We know you are reading the forums. I'm not demanding - I'm begging. Please tell us something! Anything! Pretty please! When this game is good it is fantastic. We just need a little help to get there.

    Thank you in advance for your help.
  6. Andi Goodwin

    Andi Goodwin
    Premium Member

    adaptive ai , dont adapt within a race they adapt based on previous visits to the track as such , so if you want the best bet is to get the car setup as if you would for a race session ; run 5 laps come out ; come back in and do it again as such .;; this should give the Ai enough info to adapt to you

    hope this helps ;

    As for the first post im not going to answer it , i will leave it hopefully for a dev to read , but i know it has been read by some already

  7. Thank you for the information Andi.
  8. Thanks a lot, Andi. I played only Hockenheim and the adaption was rather erratic and not consistent. It didn't seem to ’save' to what it already adapted.

    My sentiments exactly.

    Oh and would it be possible that the game at least saves after every session?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Sonat Ozturk

    Sonat Ozturk
    Sector3 Studios


    AI adapts to your performance on previous sessions. It doesn't change during a session but it changes and adapts to an average of your performance based on previous sessions on a given track. The better you get on a track the better they get.

    We will keep improving the Adaptive AI of course so hopefully you will find it satisfactory in relatively short time.

    The mini display indicators that turn red are from left to right: Aerodynamics, mechanical (gearbox) and engine.

    Hope this helps.
    • Like Like x 4
  10. Hm, thanks for your time, Sonut. I don't know, a sure fire way to trigger the adaption would be nice. Since there is no "normal" difficulty setting one is helpless if the automation isn't really working. I will test some more and try Tod do what Andi said.
  11. Shawn Jacobs

    Shawn Jacobs
    SpeedyMite Racing Premium Member

    Hi Sonat

    Would it be possible to introduce a professional difficultly setting which only matches the real life DTM times or there abouts? I think majority of people would prefer this over the adaptive, it will give us more of a target to strive to beat as opposed to if I drive slow the AI will as well and I'll still win.
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 1
  12. I have two suggestions for the AI strengths.

    1. Give the user the option to set the "minimum" opponent strength to say 100%. Then the Adapative AI will adjust off of that. That way when you first go to a track your not 3 seconds faster. The AI will either get faster or stay at the minimum strength level you selected.

    2. Have the option of using Adaptive AI or just selecting an Opponent Strength.

    It would also be nice to have the AI adjust from session to session vs having to exit out of the race and start a new one to see the changes.
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. After a few days playing in Amateur Mode I can say, that the AI beomes faster and faster and behaves very rude - ramming, pushing my car from behind and even turning it around. Then, I gotta restart all the time to even have a slightest chance against the AI.

    In the beginning on HOCKENHEIM it was quite good and I managed to win after a couple of restarts. But on BRANDS HATCH or one of the following tracks even when i managed to get in front and even am about 5 seconds in front of the AI unfortunately the AI manages to close-up ram my car and get in front so that I have to restart the race again and again and again.

    And now the AI is so fast, that even at start I cannot overturn some cars anymore but instead stay behind as 22nd with the AI driving away :(
  14. The AI rams you sometimes when you are slower than them. You can see this in the demo, also. I think the AI has sometimes problems to adapt both ways to your speed. They can be to slow or way too fast or on your level.

    Tried it yesterday and the AI adapted very good, I had really to go to the limit, but still every time I ended up on P1.

    More granularity for the AI would be nice. So that you exactly regulate how the AI acts and how good or bad it is. I think the adaptive AI is there because it is more user friendly for the casual gamer and you don't have to have rubber band ai, but I don't know for a simulation if this is good enough.

    In rfactor it depends on the car I play. If it, historically, would be a midlevel team, I let the AI drive way faster than me and so on. One can create interesting situations and challenges with this method. I would like to have something similar in DTM-E.
  15. Playing this weekend I've done a track test before each race of at least 10-15 laps (with at least 5 quality laps representative of my top speed) before each race. Doing this has definitely helped the pace of the AI.

    I've yet to make it out of Q3 with my best starting position being 18th. I've also noticed that the AI do post better times as qualifying progress. I wish there was a little more spread throughout the field but I understand this is probably not like real life.

    The races I've had have been great though (50% length, tire wear on). Yes the AI does ram you - but the drivers do it to each other IRL too. And it happens online. Rather than restart I usually try to battle my way back through the field. And my eyes are always on my rear view and I'll take the non-racing line if I'm being closely followed. It's a little frustrating but rewarding too when you battle back. And I've had several AI drivers retake positions and pass me on the outside. I'm sure if they were less aggressive they wouldn't do this.

    I agree that it would be nice to have a slider too. Maybe a % on the adaptive AI would help so you can lower or raise the pace. I imagine this might be difficult to program for though.

    Compared to the AI of other games though (Gran Turismo, Forza, rFactor) I think this is a great start. GSC has great AI but I always seem to vary wildly on tracks (95% for me is first place at one track, and last at another). I realize that is most likely my fault, but I can't be the only one who experiences that. I think this is a fantastic idea and credit Simbin for taking a chance on it.
    • Like Like x 4
  16. Some additional feedback on AI (in case Simbin is reading):

    AI seems to suffer tire wear worse than I do. At the end of races I see a lot of cars spinning out.

    Some corners are death for AI particularly:
    - First corner at Red Bull Ring (always run over large speed bumps)
    - First corner at Nurburgring
    - First corner at Oschersleben

    And the AI didn't adjust to my pace at Nurburgring. Qualifying was fine, but they were 4 seconds off qualifying pace during the race. Next race was fine.
  17. I don't know, it is just too much a hassle to get the AI fast enough. In rfactor it is a helluva work to tweak the AI to my liking, but at least it is possible. Here I am at a loss.

    The Game is great, the driving is fun, the AI is well done .. if only I could have more options regarding the AI. *sigh*
  18. I've been skeptical to the ARI system since the level of challenge you get is 100% dependable on how well the system works. Playing the game for a couple of days has made me even more skeptical. It's great if the AI in some way can react and learn from you, but that the level of the AI is fully dependable on this is bound to be problematic. First of all because you feel that they're either too fast or to slow, and there's nothing you can do about it than to drive on and hope it will be better. If it doesn't, you will probably lose interest. Secondly it's about what kind of challenge you want. Even if the ARI system works and the AI matches your abilities, it's not sure that it's what you want. Someone might want to challenge for the win in every race while another wants to fight midfield and be rewarded with a superb 5th place. How does the ARI define challenge? The best thing would be if you could somehow "bump up" (or down) the AI. After 3 races at the Norisring I'm still 3 seconds faster per lap. Should I keep on racing boring races where I lap the AI and hope it will fix itself?
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. My point exactly, Joshen. I will revert back to the rfactor mod, until this is fixed, which is really a shame, because I like DTM-E very much, but this is too boring and uncontrollable.
  20. @Joshen: +1, being able to tweak the A.I.'s overall strength would be really great.

    Another aspect that I'd really like to be seen "fixed" is the places on track the A.I. drives slower. Currently they seem to be driving slower everywhere, even on the straights - as if they didn't depress the gas pedal 100%. That doesn't really make sense, as even a not very good driver would still try to go at maximum possible speed on the straights - it's the corners and braking towards the corners where lower skilled drivers drive not as fast as possible or make mistakes (and especially because one driver has his foot even too long fully on the gas pedal or steps on it too early).

    I think that the current AI behaviour to drive slower everywhere (and depress the gas pedal only say 85 or 90 percent on the straights) is a bit annoying, as that makes it too easy to overtake them even without using the DRS.