• Blurring the line between real and virtual motorsports
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Someone with really good experience in sim racing, please look here.

Discussion in 'Other Racing Games' started by smr597, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. Hello, so I'm developing a personal project (for ages now) but I'm in a decent stage now. And I'd like to have an experienced sim racer to test my demo builds. So I'm searching for a sim racer who has enough experience (years of driving). Mostly someone who is familliar with ISI games. Because I'm using rFactor as an example, so car definition files are quite simmilar.

    Real life experience is also really welcome. The reason why I'm searching for such a person, is that my own experience is limited to two rwd bmw's in real life(e36 and e34, wich both are 2.0i vanos).
    So my problem is that I cant tell whats real or not for open wheelers or v8 race cars. I try my best to mimic rFactor's behaviour but at some point I feel like rFactor is not that real.

    Here's my sim project blog: http://projectsideways.tumblr.com/
    If anyone of you thinks he is good in racing (sim or real life) feel free to contact me via P.M. or email.
    I'll send you a demo link and some instructions and you can give me feedback, criticism or kind words, both are welcome.
    The requirements right now are: that you live in europe time zone and are available atleast a few hours a day(it would be good to have a well timed conversation in terms of the car and sim general behaviour) and youd have a Logitech G27 wheel (G25 should work aswell) or if you have a wheel with the same pinding set (axise attleast) later I can make different profiles for different wheels.
    Right now the only things a driver can configure are the car deffinition files. I have done the deffinition files myself, but they may need some improvements.

    Some specs of the current demo, the track is Spa francochamp the car is 60's eagle f1 with a 80's bmw M3 engine (because the configuration files are still WIP) And you can expect bugs ofcourse :)
    My own lap recording:

    Thanks for your time!
  2. I must say that your project really intrigues me... Being a professional developer with experience in simulation software (albeit of a slightly different nature) i am really interested in projects like these from a technical point of view :)

    I see you have opted for unity3d and C# middleware by looking at the blog... That makes me a bit curious about what you think about it? I mean, a project of this nature would need a vast array of custom algorithms like tire models and inertia physics, as well as vehicle dynamics formulas. I wouldn't choose Unity as first choice due to that, and would opt to roll my own engine. It should be said however that i have no hands on experience with U3D and it may be possible to write fast enough algorithms in the scripting utilities...

    Would love to hear your take on it, since you obviously put a lot of time into u3d...

    As for helping you out, i have both irl and sim racing experience (i've raced Radicals and have been involved in rallying, so sideways is my natural state :) )

    As i said i am also a professional software engineer so i have access to some cool toys for profiling etc. and would love to help you optimize and profile the software later on, if needed.

    Don't know how much time i would have thou. But the project intrigues me.
  3. Hello Richard, Well U3d is pretty good, its not just scripting, it's actually real C# and im liking it, tho there are some downsides. I'm also writing a DLL in c++ environment to later integrate with u3d, because for its easy to set up gfx abilities and realtime testing.

    As for the project itself, it's evolving nicely so far, right now I'm in the middle of turbos and boost. I actualy have a working formula but it relys on magic data right now, so it obviously needs a rewrite.

    Also I dont visit the forums that often, so you may be better of sending me an E-mail.

  4. new video
  5. mystaaRS

    If you get a Quali Place, you can get a Race Pace

    That looks very good mate, keep up the good work :thumbsup:
  6. A small video update:

    My physics are about complete and I'll release a public demo possibly by the end of this month :)
  7. Looks visually great. The model of that Supra is very nice... Love the interior.

    Nice to see you progressing. Just some small concerns watching the video... The car looks very stiff, and for what i presume to be a road car there is way to much tire grip if judging by the vid. Car would understeer a lot more at those speeds, and roll more. Is there real data for the car plugged into the sim engine, or is it all "magic" numbers? If the latter some may need a bit of tweaking. The speed at which the car travels forward seems exaggerated, but this could be due to video as well.

    Also, this is not meant as discouragement. I mean it as a fellow developer, trying to constructively help... There is a need for projects like these as Racer seems to have died out. The idea of someone nailing the dynamics while using a modern and versatile base engine like Unity that is proven across many different hardware configs and updated often is very tempting to me.

    But this is based on a video, so i will have to get my hands on something i can run later to give you some full assessment.

    Do you have support for wheels and pedals, on separate axis? Does it use the firmware tricks of Fanatec and Logitech (programming the wheels directly)... I recall some earlier attempts by some guys, on Unity, failing that and claiming that Unity was the culprit. I always found that to be unbelievable, as Unity seems customizable enough (dll loading), hence the question.

    Holding out for that demo to check it out.
  8. Hello Richard!

    The model is by Siim Annuk, you might know him as Some1.

    About the car setup, I tweaked it to be a race car in terms of data. The engine is a tuned engine @ 500+hp. The tires are grippy indeed, but they are aswell forgiving at some places wich allow realistic agressive corners. About magic data, the only magic data I can think of is pacejka coefs, because I dont have real tire data. If I could try some high end tire data in my sim then that would change the game...

    About Racer, I love racer, but yeah seems like Rud has got bigger and more private plans to his sim, wich is cool, but sad at the same time. Racer used to be the reason I started my own sim.
    Unity is awesome, my physics are writen in C++ and I load them in as a plugin. Unity is extremely flexible when it comes to coding. I first thaught that Unity is limited myself too, but then I learned alot about C# and .Net and I figured out that nothing is impossible.

    About input, currently I have a G27 wheel with a ffb plugin, works like a charm. The demo suports 3 input devices, keyboard, x360 and G27 (G25 should also work) no hacks needed. Every axis has its own channel, like it should, dont know what people are talking about tricks, worked out of the box, just dont use cheap wheels, they usually have crappy ffb aswell.

    If there is a ned for a custom input plugin then that can be easly made with a custom Dll. In my pov its just a matter of doing it.

    As for the demo, currently I'm searching and asking permissions for a track to use. The track shown in this video, its author has dissapeared since 2010 so I'm a bit sketchy using this material without permission.
  9. Well, it appears that Unity is more useful than i thought. I have viewed it as a tool for making pure videogames and not simulations. If this project is what it seems to be, and i dont doubt you one bit, then i might have to suggest that Unity package for one of my clients. :) That's maritime simulation on the other hand, so completely different models, but if it is as plugable as you say it would save me loads of time...

    As for Pacejkas works, i worked in the PAC2002 model on some projects before and my recollection is that it needs some sort of reference data from real life to be accurate. You could plug all the coeffs with magic data of course but as i recall, the best approach would be to get some readings for lateral slip and steady state cases from some reference vehicle and use those as a base for the model. Because as i recall the resulting function is rather sensitive to even slight changes in arctan?

    PAC2002 is also bordering on being too slow for realtime. I remember i once used the TIME model and got better realtime speed, due to fixing of some coeffs (m, mF, mZ).

    Out of technical interest (part of those things is my everyday life after all), do you use PAC2002 and ALL the coeffs? I guess, the more coeffs you can preinput the better.

    One day however, i would like to experiment with the type of model that rFactor 2 uses, where the tirepatch is modeled as a mesh and divided into subpatches, so that calculations can take into account the shape of the tire at the different points (deflection, loads altering contact patch). That gives realtime visible deflection and accurate models for it. But i haven't got the time nowadays :)

    With "tricks" i dont mean getting the axis to work, this, in my experience is as you say often straightforward. I mean that the Logitech and Fanatec wheels can be programmed directly, bypassing standard functionality of say directinput or xinput. For instance you could program for the engine vibration function on Fanatec wheels, and alter dampening and such on Logitechs. Or just program the lights, and in the Fanatec case, the display. This is what rF2 does for instance, writing data on the Fanatec display.

    There are possibilities to fine tune for different wheels there, with regard to settings for slip and dampening as well as accessing those unique functions.

    Will you consider a plugin structure? Not just for steering wheels of course, but for physics and the shaders as well? Would love to have a modular sim, that can be easily extended by users...
  10. As for tire model, Ive come to an conclusion, that they all are actuualy quite simmilar, ofcourse never models have theyr advantages, but the base must be done right. Right now I'm still using the god ol (really outdated) pacejka 89 :)
    I'll add other tire models later, and maybe one day even come up with my own. Something mixed with the pacejka and spring tire model used in gMotor.

    As for programmable wheel functions (led's messages) they are all doable, I just need the wheels and SDK, to know how to access the led's etc. I guess this information can be collected by the manufacturers, but this will be a future whistle. Right now my goal is to get the simulation as solid as possible, and right now it seems to work great at 400hz. Tho there stil lare some funny things going on at low speed friction, but you have to investigate it before you witness the sorcery that goes on at low speed friction. The model should be correct according to paper work, but right now I'm pushing the simulation to it's limits, while the model is suposed to run at 1000hz. one cool thing tho is that I have a idea in my mind to get the simulation speed up to 50hz, wich means it's mobile capable. .. if only phones had FFB lol. But at 50hz we could have alot more cars on the track at the same time aswell.

    Having everything modular is a good idea, Iäll think about it after the release, will see how much of a success it is, and how much theres interest in such a product.

    But as for now, here's a little video I recorded in the morning. Please excuse my bad handling tho, I've never ever even seen a group C car in my life, so I have no experience on how to actually drive one. Also I couldnt find any accurate data for that specific car, so specwise it's a fantasy car. Might have set up the toe angles incorrect... +0.1 deg at front and +0.2 at back
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  11. Just watched your Nordschleife video, Did lots of people die when you were recording because I heard an awful amount of gunshots :D
  12. yeah :D I didnt have propper backfire sounds back then. Now they should be better :)
  13. I recorded a small video of me learning to drift, I must say the grip feelign is really simmilar to my drift experience on snow, only theres ALOT more grip, never had the tires or power to try it on pavement.
    But here it is:
  14. I might have just discovered, that the current code in a plugin form, has some sort of a delay in how the forces react, meaning that some race cars are instable because of this.

    Will see how I can fix this issue. Some of you probably allready noticed this in the demo aswell :)