SimXperience Motion Sim Series Q+A Thread

[Brian Clancy]

This is the place for all your comments and questions on this great series:wink:

 

[Berney Villers Jr]

The end goal is immersion (something that completely occupies all the time, energy, or concentration available) and this can only be achieved by fooling the brain. Why?, because we're not in a real car but we are attempting to create cues that suggest otherwise to our brain.

Please note that I said cues. This is because no simulator (even the multi-million dollar endeavors) can produce all of the effects of an actual vehicle to scale and sustain them. No matter what simulator type you have, you will always run out of actuator travel if you don't scale the movements and create a resulting motion cue.

So the question is, how does one best fool the brain for the purpose of simulated racing by creating motion cues. This is the subject of much debate.

I believe that this requires the properly mixed application of three different principles:

1. The simple Yaw, Pitch, Roll movements mentioned above.

2. Proprioception (manipulation of the inner ear and sense of balance)

3. Kinesthesia (sense of motion from muscle tendon and joint movements)

I have not found any one of these principles to be sufficiently immersive on its own.

To the subject of moving the entire cockpit, or moving just the seat, my choice to move only the seat is based first on the fact the Kinesthesia which is a key component in muscle memory, hand-eye coordination and ultimately training, cannot be resaonably achieved otherwise. This concept also provides cost and motion detail benefits. The cost of actuators capable of moving an entire cockpit are twice that of those required to move only the seat. Even at twice the cost, the more expensive actuators are half the speed.

In short, you can mix all three of these key principles which you cannot do when moving the enrite cockpit and you can do it for half the cost while gaining road surface detail due to reduced mass.

You can read more about kinesthesia and proprioception here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

 

[eddiespag]

now about that laid back F1 seating position...

 

[Berney Villers Jr]

now about that laid back F1 seating position...

You are correct in your previous post that the SimXperience Simulators are optimized for GT / GTP and street car racing simulation.

I've been experimenting with some different ideas to address F1 seating. It essentially requires a slight lowering of the seat and raising of the pedals. This is achievable. There are a few items that I need to deal with yet, such as the overall pedal height of the CST or ECCI pedals once the pedals are raised. The G25/G27 pedals are not an issue due to their low profile. This must also be worked into the floorboard plans so that it looks and feels natural. I will not have an ETA for this until the research is complete. Also, I am gathering various F1 seating and cockit dimensions. If anyone has this data, I would be glad to have it so that I can work out an average of various chassis / model year cockpit dimensions.

 

[freand]

Very good and interesting input on the subject, Driver74 :good: I don't think you are hijacking this thread
Before this series started, I definitely was one of those thinking that you really needed to move the whole rig to get good immersion. Which was not a realistic option for me mainly due to the cost.
But the information here makes a moving rig a little bit more achievable (Not that it is a cheap option... Berney, it would be really nice if you could get an european supplier )

BTW any news on when we can expect the 3rd article in this great series?

 

[Brian Clancy]

BTW any news on when we can expect the 3rd article in this great series?

Should be very soon now guys, Berneys a pretty busy guy, so we have to fit in with him as he can, but I know the next article is almost ready

 

[Dominant1]

VR3 is coming out with a motion simulator

 

[Brian Clancy]

Next article is up at front page and on the sticky in this forum

 

[Paul Mullins]

Next article is up at front page and on the sticky in this forum

Is there going to be anymore follow up articles Brian?

 

[Brian Clancy]

Is there going to be anymore follow up articles Brian?

Yup, more to come yet! This is just a series of basic articles to 'ground' people in the basics first

 

[eddiespag]

This is all getting very interesting!

 

[eddiespag]

You are correct in your previous post that the SimXperience Simulators are optimized for GT / GTP and street car racing simulation.

I've been experimenting with some different ideas to address F1 seating. It essentially requires a slight lowering of the seat and raising of the pedals. This is achievable. There are a few items that I need to deal with yet, such as the overall pedal height of the CST or ECCI pedals once the pedals are raised. The G25/G27 pedals are not an issue due to their low profile. This must also be worked into the floorboard plans so that it looks and feels natural. I will not have an ETA for this until the research is complete. Also, I am gathering various F1 seating and cockit dimensions. If anyone has this data, I would be glad to have it so that I can work out an average of various chassis / model year cockpit dimensions.

... and the seat degrees is more open, greater that the approx 90-100 degrees. Is there a downside to 'laid back' F1 seating position when it comes to motion simulators? ie. because of laid back position, the body is unfortunately already or close to the 1G postion that is used for the upright GT driving that it itself goes to to momentarily create acceleration/decelerateion Gs. In other words when trying to create these G forces for the F1 postion, there is 'nowhere' left for the body to go to create these G feelings. Is this kind of true? Please feel free to correct or explain to this 'laidback' layman. cheers, -Eddiespag

 

[jr1414]

Trial in NYC area

I'm very much considering one of these packages. Is there anyone in the NYC metro area with a setup that would be willing to offer me a trial of their unit. I am in upper Westchester County, and am also often in Fairfield County, CT.

Thanks in advance,

James

 

[Robbie Lindsay]

for under 1000aus ya can build a wiper system that performs just as well with a third of the cost Built many units for people all over the world,
the scn5/6 are not reliable xsim users who discovered this a long time ago. the horizontal forces applied to the actuators will eventually break them and ya warrities are void because they are not designed to work like this.
Yes a good system but wears out quickly and expenisive to replace, not really diy.
wipers for a car around 90 bucks scn5 450-600. mmmmm

 

[Berney Villers Jr]

The SCN5 and SCn6 actuators are good for about 10,000km of travel. In realistic terms, my heavily used demo sim is nearing 3 years old and shows no signs of wear.

On the contrary, I built several different wip motor sims. Each had very poor performance. I think this is due to the fact that by nature a worm gear has slop. This results in an unusual clicking noise.

Worse yet, there is a MAJOR loss of detai in the wiper motor scenario. I know because I set them side by side and drove them. I invited some members of this forum along for the test so you won't have to take just my word for it. We speculate that the lost detail occurs because the DC motor can't change direction as quickly as a stepper due to the inertia and mass of the motor itself. A stepper on the other hand can change direction quite rapidly. This is where you get the detailed road surface.

Clearly you haven't driven the difference Bob.

 

[Vito Lombardi]

Hi Berney,

Hope all is well with you. Have you been busy?.

Hope to hear from you soon.

 

[Berney Villers Jr]

Hi Vito

I'm knee deep in five different projects right now so I haven't been posting as often in any of the forums I typically frequent. There wasn't much response to to the DIY motion sim series here so I haven't bothered to update it further. I'm not sure if folks here already have motion sims, aren't interested in motion sims or if I made the process seem complicated by diving too far into the technical detail.

 

[Jim Cole]

Berney, I am sure that the folks here like to read about things like this, and yes some do use motion sims at present, but not the majority I am sure. The perceived lack of interest might be due to the nature of the product as it would be expensive regardless of the DIY aspect compared to one that already has everything and just needs to be assembled. This product for most of us is basically about a dream and in this economy I am sure it will stay that way for many of us.

We still enjoy learning about this type of technology and some of us will surely have questions as well as a select few that are interested in purchasing the system, so keep up with the posts and the explanations and we will keep on reading and hopefully providing questions and requests.

Thanks.

 

[Berney Villers Jr]

Berney, I am sure that the folks here like to read about things like this, and yes some do use motion sims at present, but not the majority I am sure. The perceived lack of interest might be due to the nature of the product as it would be expensive regardless of the DIY aspect compared to one that already has everything and just needs to be assembled. This product for most of us is basically about a dream and in this economy I am sure it will stay that way for many of us.

We still enjoy learning about this type of technology and some of us will surely have questions as well as a select few that are interested in purchasing the system, so keep up with the posts and the explanations and we will keep on reading and hopefully providing questions and requests.

Thanks.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure I follow where you say "The perceived lack of interest might be due to the nature of the product as it would be expensive regardless of the DIY aspect compared to one that already has everything and just needs to be assembled.".

What is the scenario where a motion simulator that "has everything and just needs to be assembled" can be obtained more cost effectively?

I'm aware of cheaper ways to make a seat or sim move, but I'm not aware of a cheaper way to make one move realistically. I'm always on the hunt for new / better ways to make our hobby more affordable.

 

[Jim Cole]

Sorry if I wasn't clear on there Berney What I was trying to convey is that regardless of the item purchased for making a motion sim, it is going to be expensive by nature. Meaning that this is going to be a large investment, probably the largest investment that anyone can make for sim racing. With the price point, many folks are not seriously considering something like this, they are just dreaming. I am sure many feel that they would love to get one, but realistically, quite a few just won't be able to justify the expenditure.

 

[Berney Villers Jr]

Simulator Pricing

True enough. Even though our prices of $2000-$5000 are quite an improvement over the typical simulator pricing of $20,000 - $50,000, I'm sure that $2000 is a tough pill for some hobbyists to swallow.

BTW- I was thinking less along the lines of response in terms of sales but rather response in terms of interest and discussion. To your point though, discussion about something that's outside ones budget isn't always fun and so your point holds true.