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SimVibe setup with Chassis Mode and/ or Extended Mode (Tactile Tranducer System)

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by rocafella1978, Feb 2, 2017.

  1. rocafella1978

    rocafella1978
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    hi all, trying to setup a TACTILE TRANSDUCER SYSTEM, looking forward to getting feedback from experienced users and people who have setup their systems, with low to high end budgets on 80/20 or 120/40 (basically Aluminium/ Aluminum Extrusion Rigs/Cockpits) SimRigs.

    *** are there specific locations which work best on AluExtrusion Rigs? (4x corners? under pedals? under seat? other locations?


    SimVibe Software: http://simxperience.com/en-us/products/simvibe/simvibesoftware.aspx
    Requirements:
    1. Hardware:
      • rubber feet? plastic feet? wires/ cables? connectors? AluRig mounting plates?
    2. External Sounds Cards:
      • 1x or 2x Sounds Cards? (specific brand?)
    3. Amplifier(s):
      • 1x or 2x Amps? (Emotiva? iNuke?)
    4. Bass Transducers
      • 2x/4x/6x/8x -> Clark Synthesis? ButtKickers? Bass Shakers?
    thank you all for your help in advance.
     
  2. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Hello Sir, hope you are well.
    Given you as much detail as anyone could need, if you get lost in it, hey ask.
    You owe me a coffee though... :)

    1) The bigger and more powerful the units the higher level of isolation you should consider and will likely need. This does not have to be a single isolator but can compromise of anti-vibration rubber based materials like neoprene or others as well as sound deadening materials like Fatmat or industrial springs and anti-vibration mounts. If you are on a concrete based floor then this makes things much easier as vibrations will not go through it. A wooden floor is a different matter or a rig on an upstairs flooring/apartment etc.

    Ideally your objective is to maintain the vibrations as best possible in the attached area/surface and these exit through your body via bone conduction. To have vibrations spreading all across the frame to regions the vibrations won't even be felt or will blend with additional vibrations from other channels is just wasted tactile energy.

    If looking at SimXperience own cockpits, even these are not ideal. For instance to highlight the rear channels. The tactile energy has to travel quite far to deliver vibrations via the rear motion extrusion arms and then down another metal frame into the base of the seat. This does not seem to offer any way of maintaining independent L/R channels for the seat, as both would be mixed into this metal frame prior to even reaching the seat. To me this to some extent may hamper any directional based L/R effects being properly felt on the appropriate side.

    Ahh but the back shakers/tactile units are where the rear wheels would be some might say...
    The idea of units replacing wheels with them in the 4 corners is not going to always be the best solution even if some think it is relevant. Best to place them where will give you the best energy and detailing from them and usually a more direct connection with sufficient isolation can deliver this in seat & pedals.

    Metal will be best, like steel but what is important is how you deliver the tactile into the seat/pedals, for best results you want to try and maintain stereo separation as well as possible but the biggest units will deliver "suspension based effects" that are stereo with plenty of energy and if using the right type of frequencies for these effects, suspension bumps will easily still be detectable for left/right curbs even with additional effects added (several which are only mono).

    With 80/20 and the available mounting adapters (I don't have first-hand experience with this) clearly, fittings can easily be repositioned. So effectively you can try different mounting solutions or positions. The problem here is many people will just go with the first idea or attempt they do in a rush to get it all setup and running. Experimenting can improve what you may have just settled for by trying alternatives. While advice can be given, personal preference and differences in materials or seat used can all have an effect as to what is most suited for each individual. Some people will be happy with decent results others may want to seek the optimal.

    Cables etc are not difficult nor are the connections, help can be easily given but these depend on what amps and configuration you go for as to what may suit best. Do you plan to use 1 or 2 units, perhaps 4 or follow my own crazy immersion desires with a combination of 12 Chassis Mode units (3 sets of Chassis Mode using Buttkicker / Clark TST / Sub-woofers). Then using 2 more additional units over the Extension Mode for seat and pedals? Beyond the normal configuration is certainly possible.



    2. If using GPU for game/system audio via HDMI then the motherboard/onboard audio is often used for the Chassis Mode. An additional card is then required for Extension Mode (if you need or want it), you don't need to spend big money, it's hard to tell if an upmarket soundcard produces better bass output than the popular Asus DGX that seems to perform well and is affordable but some just want the best regardless. I believe USB based cards are not recommended for Simvibe usage.



    3. Stated many times that inuke DSP are the best-suited amps for the money regards Simvibe. Already a proven unit within the home cinema enthusiasts for powering subwoofers. Yes plenty of good quality amps are available but most people do not grasp the ability using Simvibe to be able to not just control volume but importantly the "amplitude" of "specific frequencies." This is one thing the inuke DSP do at a price point no other amp offers and it enables you to better control how the tactile/shakers operate with the frequencies. The benefits should not be underestimated but again the more powerful units are the ones that may benefit the most with such additional control.

    I will have a thread on these models as to why this is important, appearing soon and plan to bring more "Simvibe" related content to the forums here. This whole subject is part of a hobby for me as much as enjoying racing/sim titles being a tactile immersion hobbyist. I have researched and poked into Simvibe deeper than anyone I know of or have seen with over 500 hours testing and monitoring its effects and settings. Why all because its as frustrating as hell, due to the lack of proper guidelines and understanding given on many of its controls or the different effects in how they operate or should be paired, configured or used.



    4. Comes down to budget, you throwing 400 at this tactile immersion, 1000 or crazy like 4000?

    Just recently, I have been working with some guys (some members here) with my own attempts at building high-quality Simvibe Profiles. This highlighted how different units perform to their own limitations, yet in truth I have found there isn't one single unit that is perfect including those sold at $549 each. Buttkickers produce the best low end. Clark TST produce the best detailing and more immersion to things like engine effects including their harmonics. They act like a speaker too (also helps hearing the stereo curbs, positional presence). A current popular model at the moment seems to be the ADX which is similar to the older Aura Pro giving a decent amount of strength and detail for the money.

    In layman's terms, Buttkickers are best for lowest end of the scale. Many entry/mid level units typically at around 40Hz is their peak performance. Models like the Buttkicker Mini LFE or Gamer will hit harder than transducers. However regards the sub-harmonics below 20Hz down to 5Hz only the bigger Buttkicker models handle these with proper sufficient energy. Transducers like the ADX or TST are to me better for detail and mid-range bass frequencies above 60Hz. This is noticeable on engine effects revving through the RPM range no question about it.

    The best configuration I would say is one that can implement both types (shakers/transducers), If done properly, to get the best low-end energy and also the added detailing. This can be applied in different ways depending on the users desired configuration, Just depends on your budget and how much effort you want to put into it.

    Tactile can be great addition when it's configured well within Simvibe.
    For me, I'm personally as a hobbyist pushing the extremes of where it can be taken but few understandably will go to such extremes, yet many have invested quite a lot of money and time into this area. Do take note, the bigger more capable units can make all the difference. It's not a wattage, compare the numbers thing neither, it's their ability at producing the deepest lowest frequencies, producing better representation of them and also gives you more usable frequency bandwidth to use on the effects within Simvibe.

    Pheww...........
    Hows that?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
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  3. rocafella1978

    rocafella1978
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    Dear R0db, thank you so much, wow that's the best, most detailed and most understandable explanation and information I have read on the tactile feedback system, from a user and member who is testing and experienced it himself! Thank you for taking the time to write it up and efforts put into it, very grateful!
     
  4. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    No problem its more of an overview but if you have specific concerns regards individual components, best options for a budget and how some configurations may vary in the overall immersion they can give then by all means ask.

    Don't go thinking you must have 6,7,8 units to get the most out of Simvibe.
    If anything the more units you have it increases the complexity of "effects creation" and balancing how those effects on multiple units are all being delivered into a cockpit.

    If buying say 8 mid range of cheaper units these may not necessarily be the best long-term decision.
    Starting with 2 more upmarket, more capable units to either enjoy "Stereo Tactile" or if preferred "Seat & Pedals" can deliver a better "Quality" of immersion compared to having "More" physical units producing the immersion.

    How a small unit will deliver the frequencies especially below 20Hz is very different to how the biggest BK Advance / BK LFE or BK Concert models will deliver them. Additionally, do take note, many people are not using amplifiers that properly produce and sustain output below 20Hz, some budget models have limitations even below 40hz.

    I have a thread coming based on the Behringer inuke DSP and why these are an ideal and affordable option to consider.

    The subject, in general, is a hobby for me so no worries yet I strive to keep learning and improving,
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
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  5. rocafella1978

    rocafella1978
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    wooooooow Mr Latte!!! so nice to see you here! and to be in touch again! very happy! and thanks for your reply and feedback mate!
     
  6. rocafella1978

    rocafella1978
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    Here is what I am thinking, please let me know what you think @Mr Latte:
    1. Hardware:
    2. Internal Sounds Card(s):
      • 1x Asus Xonar DGX
    3. Amplifier(s):
    4. Bass Transducer(s):
      1. 4x Transducers total, combination of below?
        • 2x Clark Synthesis TST239 Silver Tactile Transducer Bass Shakers
        • 2x Buttkicker LFE or
          • 2x Buttkicker mini LFE Transducers?
    what do you think?
     
  7. TrailSlide

    TrailSlide

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    so is it good idea to run 4 shaker in chassis mode with simvibe, and mount the 4 shakes underneath the seat?

    the other option is to mount 2 shakers by the pedal where the foot rest, but I heard that might cause signal interference to the pedal
     
  8. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    1, No doubt a good possible option. Who are they kidding with that price though?Contact the company directly for a quote perhaps?

    For my own build I am going to use a multi-layer approach with isolation based within the seat upright section, the main cockpit frame and then a base/floor the cockpit will be mounted to. After that rubber floor tiles on the rooms wooden floor. You may not need as many layers but having the isolation start within the seat upright or frame helps keep it within the seat rather than say a cockpits main frame using only isolation. Depends where/how your going to mount the tactile as well. I personally prefer direct mounting than going for the 4 corner type approach on a main frame.

    http://www.swmanufacturing.com/part...leveling-mounts/mighty-mount-leveling-mounts/

    Alternative I showed prior if seeking industrial/commerical options.
    http://www.mason-uk.co.uk/vibration-control-products.asp#.WKD9nTuLRhE

    2. Good choice works well

    3. I had the older Behringer EP4000 series (really big heavy old school amps). Consider the 1000 or 3000 DSP the 6000 DSP is overkill. The 3000 is the ideal choice with a bit more power over the 1000 series, so it is best fit for bigger units and not a great deal more money. You won't get a better amp for tactile at this price just make sure to get the DSP model. I will soon show examples of what DSP can do for Simvibe that you cant do with standard amps.

    4. TST 239 will give a bit more detail but are more audible and will not have the level of punch the Kickers produce. The entry level kickers be it Mini or Gamer or Concert models are as good for Simvibe you will get for @ 100 each. I say to people to consider the BK Advance and even start with 2 than go with 4 smaller units. It's about twice the price but more than twice the performance and you won't regret how better it handles below 30Hz compared to the smaller units. If you don't want to spend that amount/even long-term then go with the Mini BK model its more than capable, but well still entry level model though, not quite big boys toys level.

    Simvibe bumps/surges/textures all benefit from low end punch. The detail with the TST is better with say mid-high engine RPM and higher frequencies in general also found in textures or on small bumps. Most seem to prefer the additional stronger/weighty substance than additional detail the TST will deliver.

    Many online suppliers now offer return policies, you could easily compare the BK LFE/ Advance / Mini Lfe.
    Look into what the terms are but even if it was a small cost to return its great to do your own comparisons with a single unit each before committing. If purchasing in USA I assume, you get better deals than many other regions.Prices in UK/Europe are much worse I know that.

    The fullsize LFE is on another level than any other unit available with the lowest frequencies below 20Hz - 5Hz and can produce really solid bump/effects and lowest engine rumble sensation with idle etc. You better have a good build and the best isolation to keep it in check if wanting to benefit from its potential. So with this comes more expense in isolation etc.

    Hope its helpful....
    End of the day the choice is yours but me I went the compare them before I decided route.
    The vast majority of people will find the Advance model more than capable and a really good upgrade over the smaller units. That's not to say the smaller units and even models like the ADX are not enjoyable they are just depends on your level of commitment really.

    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
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  9. Beef36

    Beef36

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    Post Deleted. I found the other thread about iNuke DSP Amps...
     
  10. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Actually, MY BAD as I still haven't done the review I planned for those amps.
    Oculus Rift got in the way but must get around to it.

    The other thread you mention is regarding the BK Piston issue. It's just highlighting one of their benefits in being able to fine tune your tactile model's operation for a specific reason or personal preference.
     
  11. Beef36

    Beef36

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    Hey Mr Latte - this is not a sim racing question. If I want tacile transducers for my home theatre couch is there any benefit using the DSP amps over regular iNuke amps?
     
  12. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Quick Answer:
    Yes the DSP is worth having in my view.
    I have, had ownership/past experience using tactile with various hardware options such as:
    Behringer Ultra Bass Pro (Discontinued /Sub-harmonic bass processor)
    Behringer FBQ 3102 (31 Band EQ and Crossover)

    Considering what the inuke DSP offers, it is an absolute bargain with little additional cost over the standard inuke based model. Connecting to a PC is a bonus as well with the "remote connect" free software.

    Long Answer:
    My own view on the usage of DSP is to use it to let the user better tailor or personalise the operation of their tactile/shaker unit. Installation of a unit and the source material being played are two varying factors. Just as the individual user's preference also can be. For the extra money you get wattage limiter control, user set crossover, two types of EQ and the ability to apply different filters. Lastly the ability to easily save/load profiles for different settings.

    What I find amusing is some people, that oppose the usage or potential benefits of the inuke DSP series are people that have either not owned or learned to use it. Saying it's not needed or has little or no benefits. In truth yes the more capable tactile/shakers on the market will benefit more from it.

    For instance you may want to make your own adjustments as to how the dynamic range used for the unit feels but basically having more control over the operation of a unit and felt sensation produced by it isn't a bad thing to have control of. It's not very difficult to learn to use neither.

    Types of materials can resonate differently with various frequencies, so being able to cut/boost down to specific individual Hz can give additional control in the operation of the unit used and whatever it is installed onto. With movies, a user may use a much narrower dynamic range. You can easily create a profile for such and load different saved profiles for simple comparisons. Then compare these to not using the DSP at all.

    It is possible to be able to add more composure with specific Hz by controlling the amplitude and frequency range going to the unit being used. As an example one of the threads on here, (you may of seen) we demonstrated how to reduce/eliminate the common problem of the "BK Mini LFE" piston pang yet still get good performance from the unit. This is much better than reducing the general volume of all frequencies used (with standard amplification) with then losing, much more tactile sensation or good felt energy.

    I have, inuke dsp profiles for music/sim usage that are rather different, each to better suit the source material or mood desired. I would expect you could benefit with such controls for cinema or general entertainment usage.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
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  13. Beef36

    Beef36

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    Mr Latte - thanks for the detailed and insightful reply. I'm a novice at these things. In relation to the various settings and profiles can that all be actioned on the iNuke itself or does that occur on a PC or some other device?
     
  14. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    No worries, I had planned and stated I would do a review of the the inuke DSP amps (over 2 months ago) but just been caught up doing other things and kinda lost interest. Really as I wonder if it's worth doing or if it has much interest. I say this after seeing recently on a few occasions, how sometimes little reactions, a few other people's reviews or interesting threads have got from the community here @ RD.

    I guess that deflated, my interest a little...
    Not moaning but felt it was disappointing seeing such as those users creating the content they did, put in a good deal of time and effort to share with others or try to help. Tactile discussions in general here at RD is rather limited or low key.

    I actually have had photos done for the review since mid February showing a heatsink and solder free fan replacement mod. Which works wonders in reducing the fan noise of these units and what has to be the biggest drawbacks of them. This solution lets a user easily replace or put back in place the original fan if ever needed.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    DSP Control
    You can control the amps DSP via on-screen menu and its buttons on the fascia. Although it's much better to use the "Remote Connect" software. It has a visual frequency chart showing "frequencies" and their "decibels". This is very handy as you visually see what changes you are doing in how it alters the frequency response and frequency curve. While it's not a live graphical visualiser the user can relate what changes they make to how it changes in feeling/sensation for the operation of the unit.

    Profiles
    You can save profiles of settings to a PC or directly onto the amps own internal memory. The amp will reload the last used preset when powered on. Its a bit awkward trying to make changes with the rather small onscreen display. So connecting to a laptop or PC is much clearer and easier to make adjustments.

    Different Usages
    You could have different settings for a reduced smooth response, good for late evenings, a medium controlled response for movies with possibly very strong low frequencies and another for all-out, max potential. Smaller units have less gains as they will have less performance/usage in good energy below 20Hz. I would recommend the BK Advance or the largest BK-LFE for the best low end tactile sensations. Movies can use 10-20Hz a lot and sometimes down to 5Hz. The Mini LFE model still falls a bit short in these regions, regarding the quality and its energy output for frequencies below @30Hz.

    While I dont claim to be any type of expert at all. I have helped/ taught a few people via PM on how to use it and if anything I have discovered that for some folk it perhaps looks more daunting/complicated than it actually is. I believe this is why many people, even owners are put off using it or have gained reasonable understanding in how to use it well.

    Will see, maybe I will feel more positive soon and get the review done.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  15. SOLO59

    SOLO59
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    Last week, I took apart my rig, and rearranged my ADX's from Chassis Mode setup (left & right under my seat) to Extension Mode setup (one under my pedal plate and simply remounted the other ADX towards the centre of my seat).

    WOW what a world of difference! EM with my two ADX shakers feels perfect now! The simvibe effects feel much more distinctive. Another huge benift is that I'm experiencing "suround" vibrational accurate effects in EM that I wasn't feeling in CM. I learned the hard way that 2 shakers just ain't enough for a CM setup.
    I can assign front suspension bumps to my pedals only, and rear suspension bumps only to my seat. Engine and gear shifts can be configured separately. I've also turned my amp down from 45%/nearly half volume to only 1/4 volume (about 25%) as 45% felt way to strong!

    When I was in CM, I wanted to spend more cash on 2 more shakers and another amp to complete CM. But after switching over to EM, I personally feel CM is a bit overkill, however I'm sure its worth it if you got the money and time. I'm VERY pleased with this setup!:inlove:
     
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  16. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    @SOLO59 59
    Nice to see you starting to experiment: You touch on something I mentioned a while back at AC Forums. Look on the forums for a new thread regarding this and EM Vs CM. I'd like to offer my own and get the communities views on this.

    @rocafella1978
    What's the latest on your considerations, preferences? Are you for adding or buying tactile? Have you read anything on Sim Shaker Wheels. It operates differently to Simvibe in that it basically uses tactile, similar to how a GS4 seat operates.

    I am pondering how to best implement all 3 using:
    Audio Tactile / Simvibe / Sim Shaker Wheels
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  17. rocafella1978

    rocafella1978
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    hi, i have set my mind on it to get a transducer setup, but haven't made up my mind EM or CM...
    i know i want to get the:
    - 1x iNUKE nu1000DSP
    - 4x TST239 Silver
    - 1x SimVibe
    - still looking for AluExtrusion mounts for TST239's
    - have -> Asus Xonar DGX (sound card)
    - but have no clue what cables and or connectors i need...and how many...
    - also not sure only get TST239's, or mix with mini LFE's or normal LFE's or other brands? mix them?

    *** if there was a store/ shop/ online to allow mix and match and sel with recommendation or would configure on custom inquiry or standard setup would be great too and would save me a lot of time researching and google'ing around. i feel like always finding out what i want, and then it changes while or after reading forums, threads and articles...which again delays the process of pulling the trigger, i think it has been over a year now trying to get a transducer setup.
     
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  18. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    I believe Parts Express and some other etaillers offer upto 28 days exchange return policies.
    If you ordered a BK Advance and a TST 239 connect them both to the underside of a chair/stool with flat surface then you can very easily test them and compare them to each other. This is what I done in 2012 after buying various models. The "test chair" gave direct sensation of how they were operating.

    I tried test tones, music, and various audio-tactile sources for a comprehensive overview of various frequencies and circumstances for the units to perform with.

    This is how I first came up with the idea of using 2 units as one, simply because I discovered the Buttkicker was better for what it is primarily designed for, in giving quite strong low-end sensations. Yet the TST 239 produces smoother/faster and more detailed response. When I felt what both offered each in their own ways I kinda wanted both together, so got creative.

    Engine RPM Hz Connection
    From a sim perspective I discovered how the TST gave better engine detail, espically with mid and higher frequencies, basically mid/high revs. Some bump/kerb detail can be increased too from usage of texture effects as these use both very low and high frequencies .

    Generally, over 60Hz I found had noticeable benefits on the TST model I tried. Keep in mind Hz = cycles per second. So the voice coil based model in the TST seemed better with higher cycle/frequencies. Yet the Buttkickers using their heavy pistons add more depth/impact and substance with lower frequencies and fewer cycles per second.

    Using both combined as a single unit, was interesting test at the time. This can be applied for EM or CM configuration and does bring advantages over a single unit operation. It is possible to easily control the BK Advance via a crossover to limit it only from 5-50Hz usage and use DSP if desired for more composure or control over the low-end extension as that units role. The TST can be focused more for mid range and high frequency detail.

    The idea may seem odd but it is similar to the principle of a floor standing speaker with a woofer based unit and mid-range driver to cover all the low bass/mid range frequencies. Not relying on a single woofer/drivers operation.


    My Own Issue
    For me I didn't want the compromise of missing either options own benefits and hence my own plans from then on was to go with a Dua Role configuration using a Buttkicker with a TST based model acting as one unit but spreading the frequencies from effects for that channel over 2 units.

    Normal, well no, as most people would decide on either option they preferred, better well yes.
    Order both, do your own tests before committing to buying multiples of a single model.

    I offer the same advice to those considering possibly an ADX Vs a Mini LFE.
    Buy one of each get a chair and compare, discover for yourselves. I encourage you all to do so...

    Few will ever consider dual units spread over a full 4 channel CM config.
    Yet some may consider Dual Role units if going with EM in seat/pedals for the benefits and additional control it can bring.

    *Cables etc are easy and can be covered in due time. Just ask when you decide what action to take.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
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  19. HoiHman

    HoiHman

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    Your post above made me want to rethink getting a TST239 for RPM, but on amazon i saw this in the specs: The TST239 is not approved for vertical mounting
     
  20. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Hi, maybe consider the TST209 available only from Parts Express as it can be mounted vertically.
    It's much more affordable than the TST 329 Gold that also is suited for vertical.
    TST 209

    This isn't as strong as the Mini LFE for low end (doesn't need to be in this role) but will produce the detail and works well with engine role to enhance harmonics and audible engine tones. Alternatively, you could try the ADX for the mid/high frequencies too, but it won't produce the audible sound in the way the TST models do.

    They can be TV volume level so not loud but certainly audible.

    Do consider as these TST can also work well not just as a secondary unit role but also combined with using "audio tactile". This can easily be mixed in with the Simvibe EM soundcard (using aux input). I got @DesKane to do this with my old TST239 and test the Audi S1 in Assetto Corsa. As an example this gives plenty of engine/transmission detail from the "audio tactile" not possible in Simvibe and seems to easily handle outputting both the Simvibe EM effects with the "audio tactile" simultaneously.

    Worth trying but each user to their own preferences.
    Hope it helps
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
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