Sim Racing: The Big Mid Season Review - Part 1

[JeffL]

Ok you answered question, your a shill for the company, no other way to interpret that word salad.
and if Reiza follows that path we will judge them the same way, because most of us don't belong to one of the cults . We just want big grids and and some choices and don't tell us that blindly giving money to a dev that they will eventually give it to us. We have seen plenty of evidence to the contrary Give me a frickin solid product and I'll buy it based on what it is now.

 

[Radu Oros]

You want big grids.. but there are big grids with non-dlc content. Maybe not with the exact content you want or in your time zone.. but then you should join an empty server that has the content you want, call some friends, and this way it can fill up more easily. Or make a league with non-dlc content. There are people who have dlcs and like default game content, in fact players with dlc still use quite a lot base game content, and other times in conjunction with dlc content. I don't shill for the company, I just don't think only on how I can benefit on the expense of others.

 

[JeffL]

I just don't think only on how I can benefit on the expense of others.

That is really twisted. You have the dlc but you don't want to benefit yourself by excluding those that can't afford all the gt3 content. That my friend is the definition of "Orwellian Doublespeak"

 

[Will Mazeo]

Ok you answered question, your a shill for the company, no other way to interpret that word salad.
and if Reiza follows that path we will judge them the same way, because most of us don't belong to one of the cults . We just want big grids and and some choices and don't tell us that blindly giving money to a dev that they will eventually give it to us. We have seen plenty of evidence to the contrary Give me a frickin solid product and I'll buy it based on what it is now.

Exactly this.

To me there is 2 good ways to sell DLC:
1 - Sell them piece by piece all separated while making a pack and giving a discount if people want to buy it all.
2 - Sell them as a pack only but allow people that don't have the DLC to race against those that have it on tracks available in the base game.

Now if If you license a full real life series then yes, go with the AC model, that's the only case where it makes sense. IMO.

 

[JeffL]

Exactly this.

To me there is 2 good ways to sell DLC:
1 - Sell them piece by piece all separated while making a pack and giving a discount if people want to buy it all.
2 - Sell them as a pack only but allow people that don't have the DLC to race against those that have it on tracks available in the base game.

Now if If you license a full real life series then yes, go with the AC model, that's the only case where it makes sense. IMO.

That's kind of a hybrid of Iracing and RRE, only do it at lower price than Iracing and make it so you don't have to be an economist like in RRE,

 

[Will Mazeo]

That's kind of a hybrid of Iracing and RRE, only do it at lower price than Iracing and make it so you don't have to be an economist like in RRE,

Too bad RRE in Steam is not the same as their site, wanted to buy some packs during the last sale but you end up paying twice for the same stuff there, and I'm not going to pay in dollar or euro in their site as I'm from Brazil, not a good idea

 

[Radu Oros]

I will support the current model in AC as long as it works and doesn't ruin any party, and it doesn't. I don't see it changing for the current AC.
If they think about it for a next AC and change to allow joining servers where you own the track and at least a car and make it work financially and for game's/mp health, then I will support this new model.

1 - Sell them piece by piece all separated while making a pack and giving a discount if people want to buy it all.

This point might only work if they make and release each car and track at a time, not as a pack. But this even so isn't a good model for a general sim racing game unless you have an organized service like iracing where it makes sense adding piece by piece and gets adopted in a scheduled series. That's why it doesn't really work for Raceroom because their game isn't organized like iracing. But in a general sim piece by piece means people will pick the big names or the best cars, while in a dlc pack different types of cars have a better chance of being used and not just the 'most important cars'. And is possible piece by piece prices will always be higher.

 

[JeffL]

I will support the current model in AC

No s**t

 

[Will Mazeo]

That's the point.. price is a bit higher to get some compensation for people not buying the full thing, in the end devs continue to profit and customer have a chance to choose. And no, you don't have to release each pice at a time. You can release a pack and put an option for people to buy it separated which can also be a good market hit since all cars in the pack are released at once and usually with a discount, the "wow" factor.
(This is the model I think Reiza will use, they won't release piece by piece, it will be a full pack but according to some posts by Renato I understand they'll have stuff sold separated)

 

[P*Funk]

Your existing content is not diminished with the way DLC works in AC, because your existing content is used in online servers without dlc cars in it

The proportion of the community I can interact with is greatly diminished. Furthermore the DLC I buy is more gravely impacted because servers which use one DLC GT3 car will use all the others meaning the value of a single DLC GT3 is proportionally reduced in value by the addition of further DLC GT3 cars.

And then I will say, the game company needs to secure that this is sustainable and people don't pass on the dlcs they make when they can just join servers and race against dlc cars without buying anything.

So you're defending the practice of making people buy things they have no interest in personally using in order to inflate the revenue of a given DLC pack? You support ensuring this occurs by spreading GT3 cars into many dream packs?

But I think is selfish to just look at your belly and not think about the other party who is making all this possible. If their business in the game is not successful, then we as players who like this game could lose in further updates and new content.

If I care about Kunos then I will support them by buying their content. It is not however fair to subtly compel me to buy this content regardless of my feelings towards Kunos. I am a consumer, I get to make my decisions. Telling me its necessary to skew my available decisions to limit me to supporting Kunos with money spent on things I do not personally value is in my opinion bad business practice and contemptuous for the relationship between the developer and the customer.

I should be freely supporting them by buying everything because I want to, not because not fully supporting them diminishes other aspects of my enjoyment of Assetto Corsa.

And I repeat, people who don't buy dlcs are only impacted partially, because there are populated servers to join and race with default cars and tracks.

At least you agree there's an impact, and therefore you have to agree that its a negative impact, even if you want to argue that its limited in its scope somehow.

Players who don't buy dlcs can still race in multiplayer with enough people

But you're framing this in a false dichotomy. Its not between those who buy DLC and those who don't. Its between those who buy ALL the DLC and those who only buy some or none of it. That's very different. Once again this is exacerbated by the way the DLC spreads various classes of car into every Dream pack. Its not like I can bypass this inconvenience by just buying the classic Formula 1 pack or the GT3 pack. Those don't exist. There's only the dream pack. If I only want the track, I have to buy all those cars. If I only want the GT3 cars I have to buy multiple packs of cars and tracks I might not want.

Its rather onerous on the consumer who wants to support Kunos and fully enjoy his DLC in multiplayer but doesn't want to buy everything.

Will Reiza that is gonna sell DLC allow people who won't buy to join servers if there's at least a car in the server from the default game cars?

I don't know yet, but Reiza already has shown they won't be selling their DLC in the way Kunos is. Most DLC will be bought as individual items and there's a generous full package option that opts you into everything for pretty cheap. The other thing is that the way Reiza content works is it tends to mostly be a single series type of affair. There's nothing like the GT3 situation in Assetto Corsa. Where there is same class variety it tends to be that Reiza includes this variety in the package, so if you buy the Ultima GTR you get the variants that come with it. Tracks will be sold separately it seems as well.

The only thing it harms then is multi class racing which is not a large part of the still minimal Reiza online community.

 

[Hash_V8]

No s**t

Well that is unless kunos decides to implement what we are talking about, and then QUF has clearly said that he will support that, in other words, QUF has declared he does not care about the merits of the issue,and boils down to what ever Kunos will do, he will support, how can you debate that?Its only right IF kunos decides it is end of story.

 

[Radu Oros]

@P*Funk
AC is a community organized racing game (people make their own servers, their own rules, their own championships). Kunos provides you with varied cars and tracks for individual use. Is up to you if you want extra paid content or not, or just race using default.
You're making it sound like Kunos is intentionally holding back GT3 cars to release them in each dlc. But they are releasing GT3 cars at the time they are produced in real life and made available with data for video games. You can't possibly say they held back cars like huracan gt3, amg gt3, 650s gt3, 488 gt3, bmw m6 gt3 (in the future, but already confirmed) and possibly same with audi lms 2016 gt3.

And what if they wouldn't release any GT3 cars in dlcs besides the few ones in base game? Then basically every car in dlc would be in its own class or at most with two or three more.
So all this fuss is because of GT3 cars? There's enough crowd in the GT2 and GT3 fan club for people to always have a sizeable enough starting grid. How is this impacting negatively people who bought dlc but you say they are affected negatively because non-dlc buyers can't participate in dlc car races. This isn't a verifiable reality.

AC is not an organized and scheduled racing game where Kunos runs competitions and makes the series. The community organizes everything. If you don't want to buy more content, then play with what you already have.

If so many people are in the same situation as you who can't or don't want to buy extra content, it means there's more than enough people to race in servers and organize leagues with default cars and tracks. And don't forget people who buy dlcs can also race in servers and leagues with default content. So you are receiving participants from both pools.

Well that is unless kunos decides to implement what we are talking about, and then QUF has clearly said that he will support that, in other words, QUF has declared he does not care about the merits of the issue,and boils down to what ever Kunos will do, he will support, how can you debate that?Its only right IF kunos decides it is end of story.

You didn't pay attention when you read my post. I said I will support these two different models unless they are bad for either players or company. But the current model in AC isn't bad for the players, it isn't optimal but definitely not bad. And to be seen if the model you suggest is good for the company.

 

[JeffL]

A one track mine is easily predicted

Edit: Dude I just had a thought, could you give an off topic humorous response so I know that your not some kind of Google Algorithm written by Kunos for forum response, seriously it's freakin' me out.

 

[Radu Oros]

A one track mine is easily predicted

Double standards though, you support ISI selling a game with multiplayer for 80€ and without MP at 30€. But then twist your nose for Kunos selling a game at 40€ with MP included and then offering paid DLC for players to diversify their racing options and experience more types of cars if they want. Is up to the community if they want to organize servers or races with DLC content and as a consequence people who didn't buy DLC or not all of them to have less places to race online, but still enough. Apparently you aren't satisfied with enough and blame it on Kunos because a part of the community wants to use DLC content in their servers and you aren't satisfied with running only with content you own. You don't want your options limited in terms of player base but also don't want to acquire DLC which gives you access to servers the community wants to run with DLC cars.

 

[JeffL]

Your amazing, I don't even have my ISI multiplayer updated at the moment. LOL. because I have my reasons. All I said ,as a critical thinker, is that the ISI model is a good one. I still think your a Google Algorithm written by Kunos for forum response, Seriously your starting to freak me out.

 

[P*Funk]

You're making it sound like Kunos is intentionally holding back GT3 cars to release them in each dlc. But they are releasing GT3 cars at the time they are produced in real life and made available with data for video games. You can't possibly say they held back cars like huracan gt3, amg gt3, 650s gt3, 488 gt3, bmw m6 gt3 (in the future, but already confirmed) and possibly same with audi lms 2016 gt3.

So we're back to you claiming its not intentional that Kunos is leveraging a DLC model that favours them by encouraging people to buy DLC they don't want.

I thought we were past this. I don't care if they do it on purpose or not, the effect is there regardless, you just seem to go back and forth either defending it as a reasonable thing for a business to do or proclaiming it absurd to think they'd do it at all.

So all this fuss is because of GT3 cars?

Its a convenient example of the effect I'm referring to. You either play only with the vanilla GT3 cars or you buy all the DLC packages that have a GT3 car in it as they're released if you want to play online with ANY of your DLC GT3 cars. That's how the community online organizes. Its clear cut but you keep labouring around various angles arguing contradictory positions from one post to the next.

How is this impacting negatively people who bought dlc but you say they are affected negatively because non-dlc buyers can't participate in dlc car races. This isn't a verifiable reality.

Because if you don't buy all the DLC packages that have a GT3 car in it then you are basically limited to the vanilla only servers for GT3 races that exclude all DLC GT3 cars. If you buy some but not all of the DLC that has GT3 cars in it then you are excluded from online races with DLC GT3 cars because you will lack some of the content in it, maybe just one car.

As time goes on and more and more GT3 cars get added this problem becomes ever larger. So you either buy all the DLC that has a GT3 car in it or you only play vanilla servers. That's the conundrum of the way the DLC model works.

AC is not an organized and scheduled racing game where Kunos runs competitions and makes the series. The community organizes everything. If you don't want to buy more content, then play with what you already have.

I already tried to tell you this and I've posted it repeatedly in this comment to emphasize it. The way the DLC is structured if you don't own all of the content that has a particular class in it then you're basically not going to be able to connect to any server that isn't exclusively vanilla content. So if you don't have every dream pack with a GT3 car in it then you might as well not own any of them if you want to play online. It makes no difference how many dream packs you buy, if you miss just one key piece of content then you're not connecting. None of the community servers is going to have only some of the DLC GT3 cars. Its either going to be deliberately vanilla only or all the current DLC add ons for the particular type of racing, be it GT3 or GT2 or whatever else shows up in the future.

it means there's more than enough people to race in servers and organize leagues with default cars and tracks

But I don't own only the default cars and tracks, I just don't own everything in the game.

 

[Radu Oros]

So you want to join all of the GT3 servers even though you don't have the content for it. If you have limited amount of content is normal to join a limited amount of servers. Others bought a lot more so inherently they will have access to more diversified servers if the community decides to make servers with that type of content. Why the people who don't have all of the dlcs gather and create a server for the other people in the same situation? In fact there are plenty of servers that don't require any dlc or at most just dreampack 1.
If I want to play in a server that will have the bmw m6 gt3 in the grid, I will buy that dlc. If I don't care about it, then I'll look for other servers or join an empty one or make my own. Why should I ask the devs to let me join a server that has content I chose not to buy, because I'm entitled to put to use the content I already own. If I want to put to use the content I already own I'll look for a different server or make my own. And most likely several of the older GT3 won't be in servers when there's so many newer GT3 models, so you couldn't join anyway. Is true you have limited options, but is also true you chose not to have the dlcs that has the content for the servers you want to join.

 

[David Dominguez]

So you want to join all of the GT3 servers even though you don't have the content for it. If you have limited amount of content is normal to join a limited amount of servers. Others bought a lot more so inherently they will have access to more diversified servers if the community decides to make servers with that type of content. Why the people who don't have all of the dlcs gather and create a server for the other people in the same situation? In fact there are plenty of servers that don't require any dlc or at most just dreampack 1.
If I want to play in a server that will have the bmw m6 gt3 in the grid, I will buy that dlc. If I don't care about it, then I'll look for other servers or join an empty one or make my own. Why should I ask the devs to let me join a server that has content I chose not to buy, because I'm entitled to put to use the content I already own. If I want to put to use the content I already own I'll look for a different server or make my own. And most likely several of the older GT3 won't be in servers when there's so many newer GT3 models, so you couldn't join anyway. Is true you have limited options, but is also true you chose not to have the dlcs that has the content for the servers you want to join.

The thing is that it's stupid to not allow users to join a server that allows to use some cars they own, just because there are some cars avaiable that they don't own. It's really simple. Bad for the player, bad for Kunos. Nobody wins.

 

[JeffL]

@Radu Oros you write 10,000 words in the defense of Kunos DLC policy then you agree with the opposite of that in @David Dominguez s last post. This is the twilight zone. ..

 

[David Ignjatovic]

IMO...

AC is a simcade with hit and miss cars.
AMS is a proper simulation for those who want something close to the real thing.