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Sim racing community. Can't we just get along...?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Rhys Gardiner, Jun 11, 2012.

  1. Rant incoming!

    Let me just start by saying that I am not aiming this at anyone in particular. This is merely my observations and opinions on the state of our hobby as I perceive it. Now that I have that little disclaimer out of the way...

    Sometimes I can't help but think that we sim racers are the hipsters of the online gaming world. Apart from some of us who enjoy all types of racing games regardless of realism (which is by no means a bad quality :thumbsup:) we're different in our tastes, we know it, and there are some of us who are d-bags about it. This, for me, is especially evident when we start comparing sims to other sims - while the comparison of something like NetKar Pro to an out-and-out arcade racer like Burnout is pretty objective, when it comes to comparing, say, rFactor 2 to iRacing, it seems like hackles are raised and we start swiping at each other, particularly on VirtualR. And don't even get me started on the furore surrounding Project CARS, a lot of which I don't believe is really necessary. Whether it's a sim or isn't, I will not comment.

    So why is this? Why are the vast majority of sim racers I see so adamant that playing a certain sim makes them superior to someone who doesn't?

    There's an air of pretentiousness and animosity surrounding a lot of what I read on many sim racing forums and websites. We don't need this negativity, aggression and snarkyness... not now, when we have potentially at least 3 new sims coming in the next two years. There hasn't been a better time for us in years, and we could easily screw it up by segregating ourselves - we're a pretty small bunch, remember. It may seem a little cheesy of me to quote a song lyric in this context, but a particular line from "Out of Touch" by Hall & Oates seems appropriate here:

    "Smoking guns, hot to the touch;
    Would cool down if we didn't use them so much..."
    I sometimes wonder if we'll ever be able to put down our figurative smoking guns and just bloody well get along, like the so-called "community" we claim ourselves to be. :(
    • Like Like x 15
  2. Hiroshi Awazu

    Hiroshi Awazu
    Off Topic Moderator

    I see it too and it is quite disappointing. Quite frankly it is very immature and it is sad to see this in our community.

    Why this is happening is beyond me.
  3. Yo....that's on nearly every forum I've ever been to.
    You must also remember that some people seem to assume the worst when reading a matter of fact statement or question, so "why do you think that" is deemed an attempt to undermine rather than an inquiry, however, face to face, you'd see it for what is was and answer normally.
  4. I understand that... it just seems to me that the pretentiousness and animosity I described is much more prevalent in sim racing circles.
  5. Bram

    Ezekiel 25:17 Staff Premium

    Imo, sim racers can be devided in a few groups based on their skills and success experience. Some of them below.
    • Drivers. People that enjoy racing regardless if they are good or bad at it.
    • Painters. People that aren't racing aliens but have exceptional painting skills.
    • Modders. People that get satisfaction out of creating models / mods for other people
    • Organizers. People that get satisfaction out of organizing events for other people.
    • Engineers. People that have great setup making skills and love to share them
    • Writers. People that enjoy reporting about the news, running communities.
    Some people have a great mix of all points above while others are maybe not very good at racing and get their experience of success out of one of the things pointed out.

    People that don't fit any of the above are either not skilled enough to enjoy simracing. Or they have such crappy real lives that shouting and trolling on the internet is their only goal (and skill).

    If it were constructive it would actually be a great asset to simracing but the majority of the time its all negative, whining, trolling and flaming other people and games without any knowledge of facts.

    But negative attention is also attention right?

    Also discussing sim racing on a theoretical or almost academic way is too much to ask for some people. Its easier to just identify yourself with a claim/statement you heard and then parrot your way into the sim racing community repeating something where you have no clue about but you heard somebody else saying something about it.
    • Like Like x 8
  6. This is something that has been going on for a long, long time.

    I can remember when I spent most of my time with Papy's NASCAR Racing 3, and how people in the community spent their time talking about how much better it was (and they were) than that trash arcade game called NASCAR HEAT.

    And even within NR3, the snide derision that the "sim" guys directed toward those who ran NR3 in "arcade" mode.

    Or the people who only drove in cockpit view talking about how terrible those people were who drove in roofcam or - God forbid...CHASE CAM. How unrealistic!

    Bottom line - the sim community has always been host to elitist assholes. It'll never change.
  7. Jay Ekkel

    Jay Ekkel
    Kylotonn Games

    I wish I knew the answer to this, would make life a lot easier. I can only look at myself...I consider myself a simracer, I dont like cokcpit camera's that much unless absolutely perfect for my viewing preference, and I can absolutely enjoy games like Dirt3 or the "arcade" F1 2011. Am i now a Simracer or an arcade racer?


    For me these games give me a smile on my face, and they provide a feeling of joy. Sliding 100 meters in Dirt3 perfectly hitting the apex and throwing it into the next corer, perfect fun! Having a tough battle in f1 2012 with someone else, a great blast. When I get out of my simulator with a smile that for me is the key of nowing if a game was good or not.

    Does it matter if a suspensionmodel calculation is set to 0.001 instead of 0.0011......I wonder who can notice...

    I dont agree with above saying that simracers always have been a bunch of ***holes. I have been around for quite some time, I used to be a modder myself, and I clearly remember the days that we were all playing all kinds of games and enjoyed or hated all of them, but the fun and passion was the connection we all had and discussion were taking place but all in good atmosphere.There was the occasional rivalry, but it was a healthy one.

    Without trashing someones mum, or calling names. It used to be a lot more civilized, the tolerance level towards each other is at a bottom low sometimes.

    We just connected ith Kunos not so long ago, we did not beat each others head in. We just connect because we all love what we do, if the whole community would have that approach....damn, just imagine that happening. Suddenly we would be a force to be reckoned with..
    • Like Like x 4
  8. Xosé Estrada

    Xosé Estrada

    I'm among the elitist assholes that doesn't consider chase cam part of simracing, and I never will.

    It creates a huge adventage in online racing when overtaking/defending and for me is a "tolerated cheat". Not to mention that it is yes, completely unrealistic, unless you are simulating R/C cars. How you see the track and your surroundings is part of simulation.

    I can see both sides in the hood vs cockpit discussion, even if I only race iRacing now to have forced cockpit for everybody, but I can't see the realism in drive flying behind the car.

    So I never join events where people can race with that cam, and as organizer I would forbid it if possible.

    But that doesn't mean I get along bad with others, its normal we have discussion, different oppinions, tastes, etc and we disagree and generate debate, otherwise communities wouldn't exist.

    I think sometimes fans of the arcade racing don't want to accept that they like more the arcade or simcade than the sim, so they try to convince simracers about things that are clearly arcade are not.

    I was into flight simulation for years, and nobody questioned if flying the plane from outside was acceptable, because was clearly not, and in fact external views were always blocked in online action. But in that case, everybody has a clear intention of simulate reality to the maximum possible.

    And I'm happy that there are a lot of elitist assholes, because they are the ones that push the software and hardware simulations in the right direction, otherwise the best sim we would have would be NASCAR 2012 or Need For Speed Unleashed and not iRacing or rFactor 2.
    • Like Like x 3
  9. Mike Bishop

    Mike Bishop

    Age, a survey was done not so long ago by one of the game companies and they found that gamers below the age of 19 where the main cause of discontent on forums and in game. Something to do with mines bigger than yours sindrome:)
  10. Jay Ekkel

    Jay Ekkel
    Kylotonn Games

    Fact: some other people love driving in chasecam, and i for one welcome those people into the community. Maybe oneday this person will try a different view and become a more experienced racer that way. I myself cant see the fun with it, but it doesnt bother me someone else does uses it.

    If a chase cam player gets attacked all the time by the so called "elite" because of that, he might turn agressive towards you or just leave (sim) racing for what t is and starts playing shooters. In the end it means we have lost a potential simracer, someone that with a little love and support could have been the next Gregor hutu.

    A community means that we provide support to each other, and helping someone from a chase cam racer to become a "proper" simracer in cockpit or bonnet that is what a community should do.
    • Like Like x 2
  11. It's only some OWers that bother me in cockpit mode, it's like the car/tyres look huge and dominate the width of the track.
  12. Xosé Estrada

    Xosé Estrada

    Of course, but to achieve that disagree is needed, some polemics as well, as long as there is respect (not to the cam, but to the person).
  13. Jay Ekkel

    Jay Ekkel
    Kylotonn Games

    Absolutely, discussion are to be held, as you say respect is seemingly non-excisting on the internet these days, and its finding it way to these "niche" communities.
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Chase cam drivers will likely never be aliens anyway as it's not precise, but nevermind...

    As for the "problem" at hand, it's just human nature, it's been like that since the dawn of time.
  15. Bram

    Ezekiel 25:17 Staff Premium

    Doesn't get more precise than with a swingman camera as you have the best view on both the surrounding cars, track and car boundaries etc. Actually imo you have too much view but some aliens do use it, also here at RD, you'll be surprised :)

    Personally I don't like as it doesn't simulate the view you would get from a normal car, but if others do enjoying racing like that, fine by me.
  16. Rhys, while I can see where you are coming from, I'm not convinced it is mainly associated with SimRacing.
    Animosity, aggression, whinging, whining seems to be the "Norm" these days with most social media. People behave very differently when posting (often annonymously) on Forums, etc. People are often more prepared to act aggressively to others when typing messages than they would behave face to face in discussion with another person.

    As Bram has said:
    "Or they have such crappy real lives that shouting and trolling on the internet is their only goal (and skill)."
    Sadly, this is becoming more common as people start to revolve their daily lives around this form of media.
    And they call this "Social Media". :rolleyes:

    BTW, I've still managed to find pockets of friendly Sim Racing, even here at RD. :)
    • Like Like x 4
  17. Caramidaru Andrei Bogdan

    Caramidaru Andrei Bogdan
    Mr. C Premium

    i'l bet u ,that u will be surprize how many Aliens use swingcam:)....
  18. Xosé Estrada

    Xosé Estrada

    Then they are not aliens for me, but very good arcade gamers :)

    Apart from the fact that all series where people I consider aliens race, are cockpit / hood forced view.
    • Like Like x 1
  19. How the heck can someone be remotely close to being an alien with swingman view !? :confused:

    I can't see one using the wheel with this view, and then add to that how awful the view is, kinda rotating 1 second after the car changes direction... Anyway.
  20. Jay Ekkel

    Jay Ekkel
    Kylotonn Games

    I can tell you that during our promo events in races with proper racers present, we had a guy on our team (erik) that would win the race in swingcam, with a joypad.

    Dont forget that driving from cokcpit view with a wheel is a skill, driving swingcam and driving with a joypad is just as much of a skill. It is just a different skill.

    So in a way rather the bashing people with those skills, have respect for what they can do, because most of us wont be able to!
    • Like Like x 2