PC2 Sim Discussion Monday - Project CARS 2

[Paul Jeffrey]

First day back in the office for many this morning, what better way to pass the time than have a good discussion about the new Project CARS game?

Now the dust is beginning to settle around the recent release of Project CARS 2, we thought it a good time to look deeper into the game, driven by our community, and share our findings and impressions from the heavily hyped new racing title from Slightly Mad Studios.

Do you have some useful tips for getting the most from the sim? Found a magic setting to really unlock the FFB? Got a trick up your sleeve that helps bring sharper graphics for little FPS trade off? Or do you simply want to share your most / least favourite car and track combinations?

So long as it remains on topic, respectful and mature, we want to know your thoughts!

Mondays be like...

 

[ermo]

So you are a WMD? Bit worrying that SMS didn't polish PCars 2 more then before release no?

My take is more nuanced than that, and I've already addressed this earlier in the thread in relation to AI (but this applies equally to many types of issues).

I could also point you to this post made by a neutral third party on the official forum, who has the benefit of being a professional software developer himself. It's spot on IMHO.

But to answer your question: I'd be worried if SMS weren't acknowledging issues and weren't working flat out to fix the critical issues and bring down the bug count, whilst slowly adding more polish.

From what I can see internally, I'm not worried.

 

[apex11]

My take is more nuanced than that, and I've already addressed this earlier in the thread in relation to AI (but this applies equally to many types of issues).

I could also point you to this post made by a neutral third party on the official forum, who has the benefit of being a professional software developer himself. It's spot on IMHO.

But to answer your question: I'd be worried if SMS weren't acknowledging issues and weren't working flat out to fix the critical issues and bring down the bug count, whilst slowly adding more polish.

From what I can see internally, I'm not worried.

Ok but from my point of view PCars 1 game if the year had all fixes and all dlc and could be picked up for 39 quid new... So based on PCars 2 i may as well keep enjoying PCars 1 and all the other sims till PCars 2 is fixed and all dlc is out and on offer whilst the early adopters have paid to beta test the game for me...

 

[bmanic]

And the consoles need it.
I still can't fanthom how the costs saved via using out sorced Q and A for consoles


So those 12 patches for PCars 1 were pointless? Or the patches that are upcoming for PCars 2, all pointless?
Stop being such a little snowflake. A game as whole may work well at a hotlapper with no ai but fact remains it's sold with features...they need to work... But how objective is a WMD like you ever going to be, so far up Ian are you can read his morning paper...

Eh?

Sigh.. at least 1 in a 100. At least 1 in 100.

 

[apex11]

Eh?

Sigh.. at least 1 in a 100. At least 1 in 100.

People like you were the same names who were ranting at anyone who dared to suggest PCars 1 had issues, you'd tell us it was perfect and we were Forza console kids... Now those same people are saying PCars 1 after all had borked physics and now PCars 2 has nailed it...... Untill PCars 3 that is...
Anyway so long as the early supporters who pay full whack are beta testing it for me till it's almost as polished as PCars 1 was at the end then it's all good.

 

[rw3]

Some people really need to learn how to have a civil discussion. This being the internet I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

 

[apex11]

Some people really need to learn how to have a civil discussion. This being the internet I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

It's the same old thing over and over, game comes out fanboys praise it like its the second coming and get angry with people who bring up issues, they get called negative and haters and forza arcade racers or "go back to mario kart"....
Then the developer starts patching the issues....if it were up to the fanboys then PCars 1 would never of had one patch let alone 12!!
Its the so called 'haters' who end up getting the games fixed....
I will get PCars 2, but i'll wait till the people who paid to be beta testers have got them to fix it first.

 

[rw3]

I have no problem with someone expressing their issues with a product. I do have a problem with someone doing it in an insulting way, attacking people just for having a different opinion on that product (calling them snowflakes etc). Play the ball, not the man.
I don't dispute that games have haters and fanboys (I ****ing hate both terms btw - it's the language of teenage girls). I've seen people defend the indefensible on the iRacing forums because they don't want to admit to flaws in a game that's cost them $1k+, and I've seen people so fixated on bashing it that they stop making any bloody sense. It's the internet, the loudest voices tend to be the most extreme and those are the views people remember. In the meantime lots of people are just having fun with it, taking it for what it is and probably not bothering with forums (and I sometimes wonder why I bother with forums - they're generally an overwhelmingly negative experience).
Personally I have enjoyed a great deal about the product and consider it to be an amazing experience in VR, which is what I bought it for, along with the offline racing (I'd love them to make the race pace closer to qualifying pace though and balance out the AI - but I get that balancing it out for so many disciplines and tracks with 100 levels of AI skill is a tough ask). There are bugs, and I would like to see them fixed. I have enjoyed online races, and I have mostly enjoyed the career, but of course some of the bugs take the shine off it. I've not yet tested the 2.0 patch so I hope that improves a few things. As a software developer I know some of the difficulties in what they're trying to do, and I also despair at some of the things they let slip, I presume due to time constraints. Overall though I've had enough fun to justify the expenditure.
So does that make me a hater or a fanboy?

 

[apex11]

I have no problem with someone expressing their issues with a product. I do have a problem with someone doing it in an insulting way, attacking people just for having a different opinion on that product (calling them snowflakes etc). Play the ball, not the man.
I don't dispute that games have haters and fanboys (I ****ing hate both terms btw - it's the language of teenage girls). I've seen people defend the indefensible on the iRacing forums because they don't want to admit to flaws in a game that's cost them $1k+, and I've seen people so fixated on bashing it that they stop making any bloody sense. It's the internet, the loudest voices tend to be the most extreme and those are the views people remember. In the meantime lots of people are just having fun with it, taking it for what it is and probably not bothering with forums (and I sometimes wonder why I bother with forums - they're generally an overwhelmingly negative experience).
Personally I have enjoyed a great deal about the product and consider it to be an amazing experience in VR, which is what I bought it for, along with the offline racing (I'd love them to make the race pace closer to qualifying pace though and balance out the AI - but I get that balancing it out for so many disciplines and tracks with 100 levels of AI skill is a tough ask). There are bugs, and I would like to see them fixed. I have enjoyed online races, and I have mostly enjoyed the career, but of course some of the bugs take the shine off it. I've not yet tested the 2.0 patch so I hope that improves a few things. As a software developer I know some of the difficulties in what they're trying to do, and I also despair at some of the things they let slip, I presume due to time constraints. Overall though I've had enough fun to justify the expenditure.
So does that make me a hater or a fanboy?

It makes you normal and a well balanced view point. But the well balanced people get lumped into groups by the tribal nutters, they can't seem to understand that there is people out there who can see the game for what it is but also admit it has faults...see. I'm on your side, well its not a side its central... like politics the far right and far left are cretins both.... people in the middle are cool with me..

 

[Skidmeister]

So does that make me a hater or a fanboy?

Both to some, neither to others, this is the internet.

 

[Rob Every]

If you allow yourself to be in any way influenced by opinions on a forum then you need to either not go into them or stay away from discussions such as this.

People are passionate and their passion pours out into pages on here, and as long as it is reasonably argued fair enough.

Calling someone a fanboy or a hater is hardly a vile accusation, it is merely presuming that they have invested time into something, like it and defend it when sometimes they shouldn't, and vice versa.

I have been called Lord knows what in forums and will only ever report it when someone steps over the line and calls you a thief or a criminal or something, name calling doesn't bother me as I can give as good as I get within the scope of a forum.

Every game ever released has faults, and the issue with the whole PCARS franchise is how that was dealt with over many months and even beforehand, and also the way people were treated and lied to about certain things.

It's not life and death, it's a game, but this is a portal that focusses down on a tiny part of the world, so really if you don't like a bit of strong arguing, you are better off reading poetry!!

 

[Thombike]

Funy, but when someone calls others "fanboy" and than write - AC is better as pC1 or 2...It does this person a fanboy too, only from other game. But...some dont understand this simplicity...Like...a 13 year old boy can not drive 300HP car like he can do it in game (full throttle), but ok, maybe I'm stupid or something...

 

[Enagee]

Wow! just been going through Pcars 2 forums and it really looks like a police state , and you will get shut down.

Granted some people do argue or just being unnecessarily negative but looks like they've gone to next level. Feel like too many people are afraid to speak if someone says something thats right they wont agree and all have been mentally conditioned to hail the mods and their leader....

Am enjoying the game, bugs are annoying.....but the dynamic on the forums looks very authoritarian and off putting on the brand .

 

[apex11]

Funy, but when someone calls others "fanboy" and than write - AC is better as pC1 or 2...It does this person a fanboy too, only from other game. But...some dont understand this simplicity...Like...a 13 year old boy can not drive 300HP car like he can do it in game (full throttle), but ok, maybe I'm stupid or something...

I don't think AC is better than PC1 or 2, for its simply with owning all sims including PC1 i cant quite see the point in getting PC2 until its in a steam sale... is that ok with you?
Plenty of kids can go full throttle in real cars as i showed you...... driving was designed by humans for humans and its really very simple, being fast at it or faster than someone else or better race craft is really what racing is about, but even than that can get muddied by the fact someone is simply faster because they have a faster car or a better set of tyres or better chasis etc etc...

 

[rw3]

Trust me, iRacing forums are worse. Point out a problem and get banned (I got 6 months for pointing out that not having any means to ensure the weather on the client was the same as on the server when small temperature differences would make a 2-3s difference to lap times was a bad idea - at the time people were getting different weather in the same session - I pointed out that this was highly exploitable if someone chose to modify the traffic containing weather information over the network - thus negating their memory-hack prevention tech).
Post something disagreeing with their political views (which tend towards far-right, gun-nut [their community manager has posted some rather scary things on facebook]) and you get banned, while you can be as abusive as you like if you're also a right-wing American gun-nut. Of course this fosters an atmosphere where certain users (especially a small group who are facebook friends with their community manager) jump on anyone who criticizes any element of iRacing, en masse.
This creates a horrible community, and shields the company from useful feedback. In contrast, I added feedback tools to my software because I wanted to know what was pissing my users off, and found it highly educational.

 

[apex11]

Trust me, iRacing forums are worse. Point out a problem and get banned (I got 6 months for pointing out that not having any means to ensure the weather on the client was the same as on the server when small temperature differences would make a 2-3s difference to lap times was a bad idea - at the time people were getting different weather in the same session - I pointed out that this was highly exploitable if someone chose to modify the traffic containing weather information over the network - thus negating their memory-hack prevention tech).
Post something disagreeing with their political views (which tend towards far-right, gun-nut [their community manager has posted some rather scary things on facebook]) and you get banned, while you can be as abusive as you like if you're also a right-wing American gun-nut. Of course this fosters an atmosphere where certain users (especially a small group who are facebook friends with their community manager) jump on anyone who criticizes any element of iRacing, en masse.
This creates a horrible community, and shields the company from useful feedback. In contrast, I added feedback tools to my software because I wanted to know what was pissing my users off, and found it highly educational.

Yes i agree, you do sound like a balanced rational person when it comes to gaming.
AC forum is tiresome
PCars forum is tiresome
iRacing tiresome
rf2 tiresome
forza and gt is its own mental place hate each others games but get slagged off by the rest
RRE seems to avoid the proper mental fanboys though, not sure why.

Don't get me wrong on these forums and games between the over zealous mods and desperate wannabes there are some normal people but they tend to get drowned out.
What is sad i that if these people really do just get one sim game and stick with it and ignore everything else...very sad and i feel for them as they are really missing out as if you open your mind up there is loads to take out of all sims, good and bad.
It happens with politics, it happens with "xbox / ps4", BMW / Merc basically everything, there are some of us out there who are jsut enjoying all the sims. I post on threads about them all, with good views but i also will say the bad stuff i come across, but on balance i rationalize stuff with cost so Automobilsta cost me £6 so i find it really hard to be too critical as it didn't cost me much.
I must admit my failing is arguing with the mentalist fanboys, but it can be fun.

The most tiresome asspect is when you sit there with all the sims on your PC, enjoying them all, but you dare to go onto a forum and express an issue that you wish was addressed and you get a barrage of hate and "oh maybe go play Forza" etc...
Or if you say along the lines of " Not happy that PCars 2 still doesn't have leader board by car class" and someone will go "well you aren't really for proper sims, go back to mario kart"
Its pathetic, toxic and mostly on these offical forums pushed on by mods and with AC and PCars Ian and Stephano...
I was banned from AC forum as i used to own the game on xbox before i got my PC...

 

[rw3]

@totheapex - Tbh there's a lot there to agree with. There are so many good racing games out there (I'll leave it to others to fight over whether they're sims) each with their own positives and negatives, it's mad not to enjoy each for what they are.

Thinking about it a bit more I can understand your position re PC2, as it's actually similar to how I've got with games in general. My Steam collection now contains a ridiculous 400+ games, due to bundles etc, plus whatever's on GOG, so I've got a collection I'll never get through realistically. I have the money to buy whatever games I want (I must do, I'm on iRacing ffs) but I have rather grown tired of the binge mentality that led me to that huge collection, and now a game has to justify its purchase. If only I had the free time I had in my youth...

One final thing though - whatever frustrations one may feel dealing with the myriad utter twunts on the internet, the rabid fanboys, the trolls and the 'haters', I do long for the days of decent conversation on the internet. I remember the days, back in the late 90s, when the internet was still new and not so open to the masses, the standard of discourse was so much higher. I'm no prude who can't handle a bit of fruity language but I do miss proper debate without insults, people who engage with logic, and the pursuit of knowledge. We seem to have lost that online sadly with mass adoption and corporatisation of the internet, and for me that's a real shame as it corrupted the good the internet was capable of achieving.

 

[apex11]

I have pretty much completely stopped playing any games that aren't driving games, I mess about with the kids on the xbox now with normal games i have on that console, but i used to play FPS and GTA and Fallout stuff like that.
Now on my PC I have RRE, AMS, iRacing (currently lapsed but will go back to it), AC, PCars 1, RF2, GSCE.
Out of those i can literally stick on AC of an evening spend an hour or so on that then fire up AMS have a race or 2 or simply blast a car around and then have a blast on RF2.
I find i can switch between them all and all feel pretty good and pretty much as i want.
I am now in a position that i wasn't in when i had my xbox to know how all the sims feel and honestly they all feel pretty good to me, just a few bits here and there where PERSONALLY I could if pushed say something TO ME feels a bit better.
But yes for the most part I see no point in getting PCars 2 as i have plenty of games with not that much free time to play, once it comes down in price on steam and a few patches who knows.
I put 600 hours on xbox PCars 1 so clearly I like what SMS do, i also stand by Shift 2 being good on xbox 360 once you dialed it in.
Personally all the sims i have they have all at times made me incredibly happy and all at times left me wanting to bin them, took me 17 hours to like RF2 and now i've put 90 hours into it for example.
The only game that has so far had me moving totally away from it is Forza series, forza 4 was the pinnacle but also back then i used a controller, but Forza is just so wrong with grip, the top level racing cars in forza are just too slippy and totally wrong, even RF2 or iRacing give you grip once tyres are in temps etc, forza is dire for this and i love the fact that all the so called top sims for consumers all have plenty of grip where i'd expect it.

Anyway that cretin who says a 13 year can't drive a car full throttle in real life but they can AC is exactly to kind of buffoon who i can't help but challenge, even then in the face of evidence of a 9 year old ragging a car around with 500bhp....
I was driving cars aged 10 around fields, i'd be amazed if 10 year olds couldn't be playing any of the sims to be honest, "that pedal for speed, that one to stop, turn wheel left to go left and right to go....that's it..."

 

[rw3]

I'd say a kid CAN drive a car (similarly I drove a car around a field, also had the pleasure of driving a Mini Moke around some dangerously narrow Greek roads with sheer drops and no barriers - what the hell were my parents thinking?). Whether they can do it well is of course the question.

I'd say they are likely to have less fear, though tbh my own limited experience tells me the fear isn't too big an issue - when I went to do some real-world stuff in a Caterham I actually went pretty hard out of the gate because of my expectations from sim-racing and knowing where the track was, having a rough idea of how hard one can push the car, etc, though of course as I gained more confidence I found more space to push, more room to enjoy a little tail-wiggle here and there. Kids will probably take more risks, because they're kids, and good luck to them.

 

[Emery]

I'll take that bet: Up to €15 for a beer of you choice if AI isn't improved AT ALL after two patches. Supply me with your PayPal details once this board has ruled whether there was an overall improvement.

If AI does improve, you shut up and board the clue train, where you not only realise that SMS care about pC2, but that they also put a lot of dev resource into AI (among MANY other things!).

Feel free to screenshot this post.

The big patch is out, which makes this the second time the quality of the AI have been addressed. How do you and the community feel about it at this point? Which of us wins the bet?

For reference, here are the conditions that we agreed needed to be satisfied:

What I'm looking for:
1) Useable AI on ovals. Right now they can't even circle the track without crashing into each other.
2) AI not cutting corners. We don't find that acceptable for humans, so I'm definitely not going to accept the AI doing it.
3) Smoothed AI paths. What's with the double-file synchronized dodging?
4) Far less AI just blindly driving off the track.

For myself, I don't believe condition 2 has been met. The post-patch videos I've seen show the AI continue to cut corners, particularly the first lap while lines of AI are not bothering to merge.

I've only seen one oval race video post-patch and it was on Monza, where many AI were riding on the apron. Anyone wanna post an Indianapolis race?

 

[apex11]

I'd say a kid CAN drive a car (similarly I drove a car around a field, also had the pleasure of driving a Mini Moke around some dangerously narrow Greek roads with sheer drops and no barriers - what the hell were my parents thinking?). Whether they can do it well is of course the question.

I'd say they are likely to have less fear, though tbh my own limited experience tells me the fear isn't too big an issue - when I went to do some real-world stuff in a Caterham I actually went pretty hard out of the gate because of my expectations from sim-racing and knowing where the track was, having a rough idea of how hard one can push the car, etc, though of course as I gained more confidence I found more space to push, more room to enjoy a little tail-wiggle here and there. Kids will probably take more risks, because they're kids, and good luck to them.

I was lucky to be invited to a test day and got to drive a FWD racing car basically a touring car, I had never driven this track though had fone track days at other tracks but the big thing I did was try to build up the fact that I would learn the track on sims, in this case PCars 1 and AC, didn't have PC at this point.
Anyway so the guys heard me saying to people that I'd never driven a fully fledged racing car or the track but had been practicing on sims..
The guys told me that whatever car I'd driven on track or road I'd not be used to a) the incredible stopping power of the brakes and b) the lateral grip and grip under acceleration, I was expecting to tip toe around and get a feel for it 2 laps till tyres don't feel like ice...nope straight out totally intuative, steering was much lighter than I expected but the grip!! And the brakes literally stamp down as hard as you like and no lock ups just loads of stopping power.
Yes as you hunt the limits it sets aside the better drivers, but up to the limits or at least your limit it's really not as hard as some people like to make out.
All I took from it was how fantastic these racing cars are, made by engineering geinus's.
I've since driven more racing cars and for me having the ability to drive pretty much any track or car from a choice of sims at any day of the week is why I love sim racing...