Season 8 Race 5 MELBOURNE Incident Report

[Peter Marshall]

Lol, Kennett, we think the same I here I think

 

[Reik Major]

...but if a person simply doesnt see the result of his actions then In my opinion theres no way he should drive in this league.
Of course discussions in general are a good thing to learn something in the end but this doesnt lead anywhere

Guys STOP!

Please.....
Keep the discussion on the racing or someone will click on that REPORT link again. Then Nico will be in the frying pan once again; no no no....

@Kennett and Peter:
I understand your feelings and I honestly feel the same, too! I only think "Oh no, not again!" But can we close our eyes without solving the problem?

In my honest opinion Jonas (indirectly) raises a very important question. And I dare to ask it directly but as a general question without calling names:

"Do we want to have a driver in our league who isn't willing to follow our gentlemen rules?"

I mean we always check new comers whether they understand that this league is a little bit different (in a positive way I think ). If we notice from their behavior that they fit in well, we are more than happy to have new nice guys (and girls!!!) on board. (Kennett, Jonas and Marko are the latest positive examples)

So I think it must be allowed to make this prove also with existing members, especially when the feeling over a longer period grows, that there's someone who doesn't develope into the same direction like the others do.
Compared with other leagues which may have stricter rules and a penalty system to keep things in order, we completly rely on everyone's responsibilty to make it a success (race by race).

In my opinion those guys who are willing to discuss and argue in an objective way show their responsibility for the league (always keeping in mind their different culture, native language and temper!). But those who are only saying "Sorry" again and again without reflecting anything are in my eyes not responsible and therefore not really taking care for others.

I wonder how long the majority wants to accept that. My biggest fear is, that we accept it for too long and finally loose one or more demotivated drivers who can't take it anymore, because they had been involved too often and nothing changes. Drivers who had the best intentions, who accepted apology after apology without asking for more to avoid such stressing and time consuming discussions.

It would be a shame to loose great guys this way and I have the bad feeling that we are close to that point.

PS: Sorry for this massive statement but it's part of my temper not to hide with it.

PPS: I always belive in the good sides of human nature!

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

An incident consists of 3 parts:
1.what is done prior to the race (have on been active in incident threads and drivers meeting prior to race)
2.the incident itself
3.what is done in forum after race

When one are unlucky and have an incident it is important that point 1 and 3 are satisfactory. The reason why people often point their fingers on you Gaetano is because you are not very good on point 1 and 3. Saying sorry is of course important, but that is not the main objective of point 3, the main point is analysing what went wrong constructively.

It is like watching Air Crash Investigation/Mayday. At the end of the epiosde we want to know exactly what went wrong and what can be done to prevent it from happening again.

Kennett:
I think it is good that you speak your mind, we need to see things from the outside as well, a view that you present. However, it strikes me that you hold your own opinion highly and others not so much. If I am not mistaken you think exactly the same as you did before we started discussing the Kimmo incident? That all other view points than your own are read, but you disagree? Can you honestly watch Jonas' onboard video and say that it could not happen to you, that 50% of the reason for the accident was Jonas' aggressive driving?

I have no problem with people criticising my driving, but when I respond to that and explain what I think I expect you to respond to me again. Do you agree with me or do you think that:
-there is enough time to think
-that the reaction is a result of aggressive thinking

Remember, this is not about placing blame, it is about reaching a conclusion on how to avoid it in the future.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Just want to underline that I see this as a healthy discussion Kennett, I am not trying to "pick a fight" or anything

I just showed the Jonas-video to Rune (former PrestoGP driver) and even though he LOVES to disagree with me, his impression was "why is this a situation, it never used to be". In other words he thinks like me when watching the video, it all happens so fast from Jonas' pov that it seems obvious that he is not the part who's actions should have prevented the accident.

At the moment I know that Kennett and probably Peter (and perhaps more?) are of a different opinion, and therefore I think it would be healthy to complete the discussion to see if it is possible that we can agree, or if we have to agree to disagree.

 

[Reik Major]

Kennett, when you review those incidents from Jonas', Anthonys and Nicos onboard view you should keep in mind that you allready know what is going to happen infront of them whilest they got surprised by the sudden action. This can make you misjudge the time they really have had to react, because the surprising effect costs them some extra time.

When watching such replays I do myself very hard to judge how long this surprinsing moment may have been for the drivers.

Even though they may have had enabled name tags and the track map I think it's nearly impossible to recognize a stationary car in this short moment, because they may have been focused on driving the corner combination well and in case of Nico and Anthony they had a fight, too. It's more likely to recognize trouble in front if you reach the scenery from a straight and without pressure by another driver.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

As for name tags they work very poorly on my system, in this situation they do not work at all. It has something to do with three screens, I almost have to aim at the driver in front of me for the name tag to appear.

I remember the first time I watched Jonas' video I noticed the accidents moments after the smoke was visable (iow I didn't notice it the same moment as smoke was present in the distance).

Also, my driving style have keept me out of incidents in almost all of the races I have done (is it 80 now?), so i do not believe I have a general attitude problem. I think if you look at similar situations where one see the obstical at an earlier point, you will see that most drivers, me included, lift and slow down when approaching, because we have time to think and approach the situation controlled.

These incidents (Kimmo and Gaetano) are both a case of sudden obstical/no time to think.

 

[Peter Marshall]

At the moment I know that Kennett and probably Peter (and perhaps more?) are of a different opinion, and therefore I think it would be healthy to complete the discussion to see if it is possible that we can agree, or if we have to agree to disagree.

I see where you get that impression, however, I don't disagree with your assesment of the incident(s) or I would say so.

To re-voice my view:
If Gaetano had of executed a succesful a Kimmo style 180 than the incident would have been different or not occured. There appeared to be enough time before Anthony and Nico arrived in my view.

But if I were asked who was to blame for the incident I would say Gaetano, as he had control of the situation [just as Nico wrote] before he blocked the track with a bungled effort to recover.

Edit: If GZ had of waited for a completely clear track that would have been best.

@Reik, I was only "worried" that the hand of the Forum Administrators was going to be forced into action.... to me eyes the thread was in danger of becoming personal and negative. Still, I had a giggle when Jonas mentioned the missing spacebar in Gaetano's post. that post is hard reading and I wanted to edit it myself.

 

[Peter Marshall]

Also, my driving style have keept me out of incidents in almost all of the races I have done (is it 80 now?),

Long way to go to catch up with Rubens

 

[David Turnbull]

i had no intentions of even replying again to this thread but seeing as gaetanno has mentioned me a few times since ill put this one in too.....

gaetanno, in my first part of my post i gave my impressions on the incident between you and anthony, i stated that i wouldnt have been so forgiving, i would have forgiven you for the accidental crash where you tried a donut in the middle of the fastest piece of track and failed, this is your decision that caused the incident/accident whatever. i was more concerned that when the incident was over you drove straight into anthony again and smacked him out of the way so you could get going again, why?

the second part of my post was poorly worded but the idea of it was that i think your english is alot better than you make out, me and you have argued on the forum and on the server and when it suits you your english is fine to argue and everyone can understand it fine, but when your at fault for an incident or your being asked as to why you dont put any intrest in the forum then your english gets messy to the point no one can understand it.

p.s i'll try not to address gaetano personally from now on, i'll try make my statements more general so as to avoid upsetting him anymore.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

i was more concerned that when the incident was over you drove straight into anthony again and smacked him out of the way so you could get going again, why?

When I saw this I assumed it was due to a sync issue, iow that Gaetano didn't smack him a second time from his pov (why would he do that?). And I still guess that this is the situation, therefore I didn't focus on that part.

I must also add that I have received many reports that Gaetano is usually a skilled and safe driver to race against. The only problem is when things go wrong it seems very hard to discuss the matter the "Presto way" after the race. And this is what is so important, that we can see that the driver who did the mistake understands exactly what went wrong and what he'll do different next time. Without this there is no reason why we should expect improvements in the future.

 

[Jonas Lex]

Reiks first post explains pretty much excactly how I think in this situation very well written.

The point is that I think its important to find some solutions now so that discussions which do not help to improve our driving can be avoided in the future.
As said before this league relies on responsibility and if a driver (doesnt matter who) is not responsible at all then thats a problem
So the point of my last post is that I think its important not to argue with drivers who are not constructive at all because theres no outcome and its also no fun for sure.

Of course Im not so familiar with Presto yet but I share Reiks thought that drivers might leave the league
when they see all these discussions which take up pages with drivers who dont want to see an obvious situation etc

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I see that so many are focusing once again the finger at me as if to try to make me retire from this contest!

I think everybody's greatest wish is that you stay in the league Gaetano, but show the same dedication as most others in solving all questions surrounding the incident after the race. Also, show that you follow the drivers meeting and incident report thread, this reading is essential for all members.

to make a clarification on my part on accident expose the facts as they went, I had very close markomarkos hot after the turn and managed to slow down and pull off I looked at the map and Ishak and nico eranonocurvet1 so that I had not seen damage I tried turning the car and continue my race but I was stuck in the wall,although I think I was stuck on one side of the track where apparently little path, on arrival of Ishak I thought that he take the usual trajectory rather than inside I was fooled by the short back and I've done to be able to turn my car but still clearly visible that there'was enough room to pull out as it did nico! I honestly do not know if there was time to slow downfor Ishak at the sight of a car also stopped becausehe was struggling with nico

Now this is what we wanted, your side of the story

After reading this I think we are getting a much clearer picture of the incident. If I was the investigator of this incident I would ask the following questions:

Anthony: Explain as detailed as you can why you went to the right?
Gaetano: Did you try to turn your car knowing that if you did not succeed your car would not be stuck in usual trajectory, or did you just assume you would turn the car successfully?

Remember, this is not about finding the person responsible, it is about learning from situations to collectively improve.

 

[Anthony Ishak]

- Anthony made the wrong guess of where to pass the blocking car -

- I understand Anthonys decision to move to the right, usually the stopped car is situated left but in racing you can't rely on guesses..

I got presented with a situation where I had to decide what to do in a matter of tenths, there is no time to think, you drive on "instinct".

I have to use your words here Nico as this is exactly how I did react in this situation.
No guessing were made here, I think I had almost a second from the moment I realised something was there to the moment of the contact and I believe I made the right decision in that fraction of time to go to the right when I saw the car that was in the middle of track going backwards and to the left in a way of making room for me to pass & therefore I kept going, would your common sense tell you to move to the left when u see a car moving to the left? But the contact happened because the blocking car moved twice, backwards then quickly forwards and shut the door.

But once again, there was no lift on the throttle when the accident is clearly visible..

i am sorry , i did not get you correctly , In which way it was Clearly visible? With the absence of the yellow flags and smoke while doing 260k coming out of that turn while all my concentration was on the racing heat between me and the car chasing me , maybe my mind was not fast enough to suddenly guess what appeared on the road was a car parked there and react by lifting off to avoid it !
please do not take my words wrong, but are you trying to compare / link this incident with the same incident that happened in front of you on lap 12 , TS 1130 at the exact spot where Jonas lex span his car the exact same way Geatano did on that turn where the accident happened in a distance in front of you where you could clearly see him skidding to the right with the smoke everywhere and where you had enough time to react to lift of and avoid that incident ?

Nico should get a warning too, no lift when there are TWO cars colliding in front, what were you thinking, other than "easy points"?

Please do not feel offended Kennet but you have gone a bit too far with your judgment here.
i beleive If I had a second to react when I had a clear view in front of me , then Nico who was very close to me and I was in a way blocking his view would have fraction of the time to realise and react to the situation ahead of him.
No comment on the easy points , i am sure Kennett would not have written those words if he has been long enough with us...

And for Geatano , i thought i already have forgiven you in my second post, now it is your turn to try something diferent ..
i posted my reply with the good intention and as Reik usully says, I always belive in the good sides of human nature.

 

[Jim Hawley]

Looking at Nico's video of Gaetano & Anthony's incident

I've just watched it once and this is the way I see things >

Gaetano spins, fair enough it happens, as he comes to rest he's mostly off the road but is on the left side which is closer to the normal racing line and not good a place to be hanging around if you can possibly help it, he has a good view of the track behind and it is clear for now, so he choses to try spin the car around quickly, get pointing the right way and at the same time get away from the normal racing line and out of danger..... all good so far

Now as we see Gaetano's doughnut doesn't quite come off and get him all the way around...this can happen.......so he selects reverse and moves back a little then very quickly selects first gear and moves forward again, at this point Anthony comes through and colides with him

I believe that Gaetano did the best he could, the fact that he only reverses a few feet before going forward again suggests to me he is trying to stay as far to the right as possible and trying to perform a 2 or 3 point back and forth turn in an atempt to stay as far away from the racing line as he can by only reversing a little each time..... this is the right thing to do yes? I certainly think so and it is what I would try to do!

Anthony's first glimpse of Gaetano's car may have been just as it was moving backwards, now given the fraction of a second Anthony had to choose which side to go, he would be forgiven for choosing to go right as he would expect the car to continue moving backwards and blocking the left hand side

Anthonys decision was made in a split second based on what he could see ahead, Gaetano was making every effort to stay on the right hand side of the track and away from the racing line by shunting just a few feet back and forth....

It was just very unfortunate!!! an accident where both drivers tried to do what they thought was best to avoid it

Please guys give G.Z. a break, I'm starting to feel quite sorry for him

Jim

 

[Reik Major]

I agree 100% Jim! Very good post.

It just would have been so easy if this perfect analysis was the result of a short constructive dialogue between Anthony and Gaetano. Then I could trust 100% in Gaetanos commitment and go on without the feeling that there's something left open...

But as I said before, I trust in everyones good nature so my trust in Gaetanos commitment maybe down to 99% at the moment but if we notice a slight improvement in his communication it will surely increase to 100% soon.