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Formula RaceRoom 3 @ Nurburgring GP (Club Event) (LIVE)

Season 7 - Small adjustments needed

Discussion in 'Presto GP' started by Nicolai Nicholson, Dec 2, 2011.

  1. Intro:
    First of all, the way PrestoGP is meant to work every single one of you could do what I am doing now, making this topic etc etc. Iow i do this in the power of being a PrestoGP member :) therefore I hope that as many as possible of you contribute with your view, because this is just mine, and the majority is what should count. You can also add topics, disagree with me etc.

    Main stuff:
    All in all I think we all can be proud of how well our racing works. Considering how much effort and skills it takes from every single member to create a successful event I think the level we are on today is pretty amazing.

    However, there will always be room for further improvement. Reading your race and incident reports, and also through my own experiences in the races, I have identified a few areas that I think needs a closer look.

    -Dave and maybe other's race start/first lap
    -Procedures when lapping/being lapped
    -Level of competitiveness vs. safety among the fastest drivers
    -The need of no pit speed limit

    Now, remember that one of the major strength of Presto GP is that we are able to discuss stuff like this openly and constructively, even mentioning names, without anyone being insulted or anything like that. Doing stuff like this openly allows everybody to take part of the learning and is crucial for moving forward.

    Dave and maybe other's race start/first lap
    From just a brief look at some of your race starts I feel almost certain that the problem is that you are not in sync with the other drivers in terms of "competitiveness vs. safety" on lap one. The fact that you, the least experienced PrestoGP league racer, gain many positions each race is a sign that you are way more optimistic than most others, and that usually leads to an incident.

    Normally the more experienced and skilled you are, the smaller margins you are able to operate under maintaining the same level of safety. If you look at the replay from the races and compare your starts with other members/drivers on the grid (e.g. me), you will notice a huge difference. I will make a video to demonstrate.

    Rule of thumb though, pretend it is real, and each time you crash it costs you lot's of $$$ and you also risk personal injury.

    Procedures when lapping/being lapped
    The question here is how much time the fast guy behind can expect to lose, and how much of an effort the slow guy ahead has to make to avoid the fast guy losing time.

    Personally I think the best solution is that we allow the slow car ahead "all the time he needs" to allow for a safe pass. As long as the slow car does not favor anyone, but always does his best, lapping cars is just another element to the competition, and that way can be regarded as fair. It can also be a spice to the front fight.

    In my race at Interlagos I was right at David T's tail fighting for 7th I think it was when I go a blue flag and Sean and a string of cars in my mirrors in the start of the twisty part of the track. I made a small mistake in one of the turns (losing a few tenths), not enough to allow Sean past, but I felt compelled to move off track to let him past, not to interfere with his/their race. It was impossible for me to know who the 3 other cars were, so I had to let them all past . Obviously 1 or 2 of them were my competitors, and I lost hard earned places. This happened a second time some laps later, and again I lost a couple of places.

    My point is that I was so afraid of holding Sean up that I partly destroyed my own race to avoid it. If the consensus was what I proposed above, I would have thought, "this is part of the race, he'll have to wait until after the last turn, and then I can more controlled let past those who are ahead of me (but not the rest)."

    Obviously he (the fast guy ahead) have the option to make a pass on me earlier if he manage, if I see him up my side I will let him past.

    I feel sorry for the slower guys who have to deal with this much more than me. Also, the way it tend to work now, the slower guys are likely to be lapped more when they lose so much time letting others past all the time.

    Level of competitiveness vs. safety among the fastest drivers
    I think this is more for the front drivers to discuss, but I will be glad to participate. I can see from Tim and David's posts, and also from earlier incidents by others that we might gain on discussing when one should go for a move and when it is to risky.

    Some times we get great boarderline examples on this dilemma (when one should go for a move and when it is to risky), but usually we do not dear to discuss it because the incident has already caused negative emotions. This is a great loss for us all, because it prohibits us from improving much in these areas.

    I have not seen any of the David/Tim situations myself yet, but I am delighted to see that they are able to deal with it without aggression. It would be very educational for all if the video's were posted and discussed by all (or am I expecting too much from those involved?)

    Imagine an incident where the two involved disagrees about if it was right of one of them to try a move on the inside. If we then had the opinion from every single driver in the league (yes I think it is ok to go for a move in that situation or not) we all would learn a lot. Perhaps 18 sais it is not ok and 4 sais it is ok, then it would seem that the 4 guys were slightly out of sync with the rest and would have to adjust their style slightly. If the opinions was more 50/50 we can see it as a boarderline situation, also very helpful to know.

    The need of no pit speed limit
    This was originally installed to make 1 and 2 stop strategy more equal (or making 2 stops more favourable than it used to be, everybody were on one stop).

    For some reason though it seems 2 stops are way faster than 1 stop, and we see little variety of strategy. So the no pit speed thing is working against it's purpose :)

    To get technical; the time you save on one stop without pit speed limit contra with pit speed limit is the time that will favour one stop if we reinstate the pit speed limit. At Interlagos it would probably be 5+ sec or so, mening 2 stops would still be faster, but it would not hurt so much if one tried 1 stop.

    Should we reinstall the pit speed limit?
    • Like Like x 3
  2. David Turnbull

    David Turnbull
    PrestoGP Veteran

    i agree with everything there, when looking at another replay except my own it was definatly an overly optomistic and aggressive move, but on my own replay and in the race i felt i had the chance of getting up the inside, im starting to think what we see in the replays isnt actually what happens on the server, in the situation with tim a small lag of either tim, myself or the server has placed tim in a diffrent position on my screen to where he actually is, its happened a few times now, in fact alot of the incidents we have in presto are caused by sync issues, i dont know what can be done about this but from now on i'll be more cautious around another driver if hes half way around the world as im pretty sure our location and pings are the problem.

    i dont think there is safety concerns from the guys at the front of the grid, i know myself i have no worrys about any other drivers as in there level of safeness, they probably think diffrent about me though :D the only time i feel worried is if im trying to lap a group of cars as its not always predictable whats going on in the other guys head, but this is what makes it more intresting too, in real life the front runners have problems lapping cars, why shouldnt we.

    to be honest theres not much id change for next season, in fact ive enjoyed this seasons format when i really thought superpole would be a bad idea from the start, for next season i'll be looking to make changes to my own driving definatly, ive got to start being consistant and thinking about where i am on the track and when its safe to pull a move, as i found at interlagos im still lacking in that respect.
  3. I need to add one issue
    -the need of no pit speed limit
    This was originally installed to make 1 and 2 stop strategy more equal (or making 2 stops more favourable than it used to be, everybody were on one stop).

    For some reason though it seems 2 stops are way faster than 1 stop, and we see little variety of strategy. So the no pit speed thing is working against it's purpose :)

    Should we reinstall the pit speed limit?
  4. David Turnbull

    David Turnbull
    PrestoGP Veteran

    id say no, i think its added something extra to the races, pits now have to be practised to get the line, when to take limiter off how far up pit lane you are and your braking point all while configuring your pit, i like that, it makes us more involved, i wouldnt change it.
  5. Good point, I agree (with what I quoted, not neccesseraly the conclusion :) )
  6. Valter Ostman

    Valter Ostman
    PrestoGP Veteran

    I did gain some places when I changed strategy from two stopper stint length to a one stopper length last stint. It was hard to pass with my wing settings but the pace was ok.
  7. But was it faster on paper? Maybe you would have gained more places with a two stopper. Most signals I have received + my own experience +all the faster guys and most others chose 2 stops sais that on most tracks 2 stops is significantly faster.

    I guess my dream scenario would be no pit speed limit with 0-10 sec difference between one and two stops.
  8. although I am new here I would say I like the format of the league and the level that we get here, but as I have seen here in RD and experienced this format, I think is funny and interesting that is Q1 + Q2 (i think they use one Practice to be the Q1 and the Quaify is the Q2, only run on Q2 the first 10 drivers) but as I said I'm new, I agree and admire the format of this league, and respect the older folk League Drivers, it's just an idea I find interesting as the real F1 and just write it because I have seen this format be used in a championship here at Race Department.
    Underline again that I completely agree with the format. :cool:
  9. To explain the format; we want to consentrate the time you have to be present to minimise stress on drivers real life and maximise appearence. Some guys just make it home from work to join the race, others have to leave soon after or go to bed. Since the start 3 1/2 years ago qualify started Wednesday at 8pm uk time and the race ended a bit after 9:30pm.This predictabillity in day and duration I think also helps towards fitting it in with your busy real life. My friends and family know that Wednesday night is possibly a race night :)

    When we before this season wanted a slightly longer race to allow for more strategies, we had to steal the time from the qualify session to stay true to the duration of the event :) And it is my impression that it has been a great success, even David T, the biggest opponent to the super pole format, seems to enjoy it :) And in many ways it resembles the pressure in f1 where you often have one chance to deliver the perfect lap.

    To sum up, it is almost constitutional that between 8pm-9:35pm we need to fit practice start, qualify, warmup and race.
  10. Valter Ostman

    Valter Ostman
    PrestoGP Veteran

    I didn't express my self clearly. I did an early last pitstop to try to pass the guys I expected to go on for ten more laps on worn tires.
  11. Indeed! I always enjoy the racing with you guys. I like the slightly longer Grand Prix format of our races this season.

    I don't think I have or cause any issues when being lapped. I plan for it well in advance and I think only twice this season have had to yield anywhere but on a straight.

    Pit stops I am still working on. My pit-in practice happens during the Practice and Warm Up sessions. It's only on the day that I know where my pit box is. I am in favour of keeping the no pit lane speed limit.

    Safety? No real complaints here. Once a season something unfortunate may happen to my disadvantage.
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Jim Hawley

    Jim Hawley
    PrestoGP Veteran

    The level of skill we have here in this league is exceptional, we should be very proud of what "we" and most importantly "Nico" have built


    It's true that a few drivers need to calm a little in the early laps, but it's something we/they can work on through open discussion


    Generally very good awareness from everybody, I been both lapping and being lapped at various points this season and have very few worries about it, I would say that sometimes the guy being lapped moves over to soon and perhaps gives away more time than is necessary, Nico's first example at interlagos for instance, I don't like to see people go completely off track to avoid holding up the front runners


    We have had some issues with this, needs some discussion I think

    Competitiveness at the front

    I can't see what difference it makes if your racing for 1st, 2nd or 17th, the same rules and track etiquette should apply, but it's something that should never stop being discussed, no matter how good we think we are, we can always improve

    Pit Speed Limit

    I like the new superpole format, and also the longer race distance, but I would like to see the 1 and 2 stop options brought closer together if possible, it seems the 1 stop does not work in most cases, re-introducing the pit limit could do this? it believe it would add around 10 sec to the 2 stop option over the 1 stop

    or, "wildcard suggestion" add another 15 minutes to the race distance? this may force the 2 stoppers to use medium tyres at some stage in the race, which could make people have to think a bit

    • Like Like x 1
  13. Tim McIver

    Tim McIver
    PrestoGP Veteran

    I've stolen Jim's formatting, thanks Jim.

    I'm enjoying this season a lot, part of that enjoyment is because of the changes we've made, I look forward to the next changes.


    We have been doing a lot better. People need to understand that making up places at the start is completely pointless if you are going to have a couple of spins and an extra pitstop later in the race. Our standard has become very high, and yet, if you complete the race distance without incident you will always be in the top 10 often much higher.


    I have been a bit vocal on lapping issues. This is primarily because I think watching replays and discussing will help people understand better how we can all lose the least amount of time. Because it's been quite competitive at the front lately (once or twice I thought I even had a shot at the Champ!) there really are seconds in it. The undercut is always going to be a very near thing. Without DRS at Interlagos it was the only way to make passes at the front.

    I use MotecAdd on a second screen. It has a helpful display down the bottom which shows you the position number of the cars around you. It's particularly good for judging when there's more than one car coming through.

    Pit Speed Limit and Race Format

    I've been really enjoying the new format. I like the added tension in qual, I like that we didn't have 20 cars on track at Inter trying to get a clean lap. Most of all I like the longer races.

    I have enjoyed the no pit speed limit change though Nico has a very strong point. I think its closer than people think. I have been very close to trying a one stopper in the last two races. Had I qualified further down the field I would have gone one stop last race.

    I also think the reduced pit stop time would be wonderful in changeable weather. It would force people to be making the bold move onto inters sooner and back again when it clears.

    This leads me to my most desired change. I want some wet weather. The last few seasons our weather systems have gotten better and better and I love the current concept (Thanks Daniel!). I would would love to see the numbers changed for the last two races of the season so that the chance of rain (in the period of the race not just on the day of the race) is closer to 75%. I think it would be good if we had some insight into how the numbers have been done this season so that we can suggest some changes.

    • Like Like x 1
  14. Valter Ostman

    Valter Ostman
    PrestoGP Veteran

    I like to keep the speed limiter off. It gives us more options like Tim says it's important if we have fast changing weather.

    About the starts. In my opinion the difference in speed is the danger here. Cars changing lanes like in the real sport isn't as risky as a high speed dive to gain positions. I cant think of anyone in the league that I wouldn't trust to go three parallel cars through the first corner at for instance Barcelona with. I know we all have the skill to do that. The danger is if someone thinks it's possible to dive in with significantly more speed to try a hopeless overtake(on cold tires) of the other two cars. One way to become better to judge the first corner is to do practice starts with AI like Reik have mentioned a while ago. I do that before every race. It's needed because I often qualify near P15 and that kind of grid position is a big challenge for anyone.
  15. Sean Greenlaw

    Sean Greenlaw
    PrestoGP Veteran

    I stole jims format to cheers :)

    Starts are helped i think with longer race, patience in 1st lap and starts leads to a better finish a small spin or mistake 1st lap can be quite costly i know to well :cool:


    I agree with jim that in some cases when lapping sometimes its abit to soon, obviously they trying to not affect guy lappings race but i would be happy to wait till designated safe places for me like on straights prob safest and easiest place to let someone lap. For example with nico and me at interlagos , nico could have waited till small straight before last turn or the main last straight to let me past, maybe have cost me small amount of time but would be safer for everyone. Also from driver about to be lapped when he moves off racing line on the straight would be the signal to the other driver lapping to lap.


    This may be quite difficult as a competative overtake but i think if for instance was me drving and guy trying to unlap himself if he was constantly at my rear for 1 or 2 laps id probably let by knowing i was affecting his race.

    Competitiveness at the front

    This i agree with jim to should be same throughout field, I tend to pick a couple areas in track that are best chance to pass someone and only really try to pass people at those parts of track, unless driver error ahead gives you a chance to pass, most of the time if driver ahead doesnt make a mistake its extremely difficult to pass.

    Pit Speed Limit

    I like the new format with superpole and longer race and also would like to see possible 1 vs 2 stop stratagys. Maybe things that have been said like 5/10 min longer race or pit speed limit could affect this or if anyway to maybe change mod to make these stratagys possible like fuel filling time or fuel weight or fuel usage or tire wear.

    Even if stay all stays same im sure we will continue to improve in the current rules and have some great racing :D
  16. Valerio Vinassa

    Valerio Vinassa
    PrestoGP Veteran

    love SuperPole nice mix courage+brain,this season i used 2 pitstop strategy and 10minutes more of race is not a bad idea sure no speed limit in pit, every pit cost 33/38 sec.Changing weather think that Daniel's work is Fantastic but believe that if we want more changing only thing is put more percentuage of rain in file-game, I ask me how many races I have see with-rain-sun-rain-sun-rain ecc.:D
    and one real driver love drive a F1 with rain?Think prefer a hot track with good grip, this words only for say that found more real the weather of this season for me its OK.

    Lapping: Im a part of this question:p and in true i not had problem how i can i let a room for let pass but remember not every time this is possible immediately if u know the track u can immagine where u can pass in safety:) you know YOU are a THE good drivers :D
  17. I'm very happy with the current format, even if I want more variable weather : more rain and also more temperature on some tracks like in RL (singapore, abu dhabi, etc.). I want to be forced to race on hards because the meds or softs are heating too much! I really like the superpole format, that gives more time for the race and for practice starts.

    About lapping : I don't have any problem with that, and don't mind losing a few seconds when lapping or being lapped. The main problem is when you're in battle with someone you want to overtake and a car want to lap you : in this case I make my best to lose the fewest possible time, and this mean I yield al little later than if I wasn't battling with another pilot, but I do that only if the lapping car is not in battle with someone else (the XD window can tell that).

    About unlapping : I've unlapped myself several times in the past, and I had to do that because of a big mistake I made earlier in the race (unexpected stop to repair for instance). I really don't like this part, but you should not be aggressive and stay at least 1 or 2 laps at less than 2 seconds of the car you want to unlap. Then if the pilot decides to let you pass, or if he makes a big mistake, then you can unlap yourself, but you should never try to overtake him by surprise.

    About pit speed limit : I'm against a pit lane speed limit, unless someone find a way to make my mechanicals work faster :) . In fact this depend on the circuit. There's a huge difference at Spa, but almost no difference at Abu Dhabi. On short tracks, if you have to repair just after the race start, you can lose 1 lap in the pits if the limit is on, and this would ruin your race, so I'm against it. About the strategy arguments 1 stop vs 2 stops, I sometimes want to try a one stopper, but I feel too frustrated not being able to overtake that I prefer 2 stops like all the other pilots. If refuelling in the stands was forbidden like in F1 this season, then maybe we would see lots of different strategies.
  18. I can understand you. I myself have wanted to give you all some fun and exciting wet races, but the random numbers have not produced any of that. Without investigating the exact probability I feel that it should have rained a lot more in this season than it has. So it's mostly down to chance I think.

    For the first forecast I've tried to follow actual data on how often it rains at the different race locations, and base the average percentage for rain during a day on that. This is a constraint as I've tried to get realistic weather. However, it hasn't been discussed a lot if this is good or bad. I've just continued to do it like this. It doesn't have to be so stricly followed if we want more wet races :).

    So, I will not start to fabricate the weather directly, but we could play with the probabilities, and say that the chance for rain is higher, to make it more fun. Because that's what we are here for :).

    The limiting thing for the temperature has been the fear of overheating cars I guess. That some may be caught off guard by the hotter temp and they have to retire because of this little thing. But it shouldn't be a problem if everyone are aware of that, and they can practise in the hotter conditions to be sure of that the car wont overheat. So we can change it if everyone wants it. It's a community decision, and it wouldn't make any difference for me. Maybe we could let the temp be fixed at 30 C instead of 20 for the Valencia round?

    Oh, and sorry for maybe being a little off the original topic. Hope it's ok.
  19. Prehaps the number we could play around with could be the averge chance of rain in a session (e.g. 20%), and then you can play around with the local probabillities, e.g. 30% at Interlagos and 10% at Abu Dhabi. With 20% each session, we would on average have a (1-(0,8x0,8))= 36% chance of rain affecting an event, or 4 sessions out of the 20 we have in a season.

    Perhaps juice it up to 30% for the remaining 4 sessions, giving us a 76% chance we'll see rain before the season ends!?